Here's a new one...

[chickypoo]

My oldest just told me that sometimes she hears voices arguing in her head. There's something in the ceiling that has to be taken down or put up, and the voices argue over it. They start talking super slow and I guess speed up? She said she'll wake up in the night and it will happen, and she feels like she has to laugh hysterically and then slap herself to make it stop.
I'm sure I've gotten some details wrong because I was so confused by all of this... but I asked if she wants me TJ call a therapist and she said yes. She's 11. The whole conversation seemed weird. She said she remembered it happening when she was little but thought it was normal, and I told her than if there's anything that makes her uncomfortable or that she doesn't like them it's not normal and she needs to talk to me about it. I do feel like I remember her talking about arguing in her head, but we had decided that it was just her though process.
So tomorrow I'll call a therapist. I just found out there are some that can come to your house so hopefully we can do that. I'm. It even sure what to say when I call though. Has anyone dealt with this?

[auntie]

Oh chickypoo, I am sorry she is dealing with this.

Given her age, I would be concerned as well. In your situation, I would want her at the best pediatric hospital psychiatry department in the area for diagnosis; they could potentially turf her to a closer psychologist or therapist if appropriate.

[chickypoo]

Oct 5, 2017 6:11:25 GMT -5 auntie said:

Oh chickypoo, I am sorry she is dealing with this.

Given her age, I would be concerned as well. In your situation, I would want her at the best pediatric hospital psychiatry department in the area for diagnosis; they could potentially turf her to a closer psychologist or therapist if appropriate.

Maybe I should ask her doctor for a referral rather than calling the place I planned on calling? He should know better than I do what's available.
I'm not sure there's much... I can email him so maybe I'll just send over what I posted here and see what he thinks.
This is the place I was talking about

[auntie]

Hmmm, it's really weird that nowhere on that site is a list of the actual clinicians your daughter might see and what their areas of specialty are.

DS, DN and my mom are all seen in a large Psychiatric/Psychology center that deals with a range of individual needs from family counseling, teen issues, ASD, mental illness, divorce, relationships, etc- they list their psychiatrists (3), PhD psychologists and therapists by name, specialty, education and affiliations. That this place doesn't concerns me; it could suggest high turn-over or people "Dabbling" in several areas rather than focusing on a specific kind of concern like anxiety, eating disorders, addicition, etc.

It's a good idea to talk to her PCP first- these folks may be OK, the PCP may prefer one person there over others or he may be more comfortable elsewhere. Often, hospitals are where you'll find psychiatrists who take most insurance.

[chickypoo]

Oct 5, 2017 9:36:02 GMT -5 auntie said:

Hmmm, it's really weird that nowhere on that site is a list of the actual clinicians your daughter might see and what their areas of specialty are.

DS, DN and my mom are all seen in a large Psychiatric/Psychology center that deals with a range of individual needs from family counseling, teen issues, ASD, mental illness, divorce, relationships, etc- they list their psychiatrists (3), PhD psychologists and therapists by name, specialty, education and affiliations. That this place doesn't concerns me; it could suggest high turn-over or people "Dabbling" in several areas rather than focusing on a specific kind of concern like anxiety, eating disorders, addicition, etc.

It's a good idea to talk to her PCP first- these folks may be OK, the PCP may prefer one person there over others or he may be more comfortable elsewhere. Often, hospitals are where you'll find psychiatrists who take most insurance.

That's a very good point. I don't see names anywhere on the site.
I'll wait til she gets home and write up an email for the ped together so I can make sure to get the info right.
Thanks

[akafred]

That sounds very nuanced. Obviously the voices are concerning, but so is the ritualistic behavior that she uses to stop it, almost like closing an OCD loop. I wish I could help on finding someone. My area is ridiculously underserved in the mental health arena.

[chickypoo]

Oct 5, 2017 19:27:13 GMT -5 akafred said:

That sounds very nuanced. Obviously the voices are concerning, but so is the ritualistic behavior that she uses to stop it, almost like closing an OCD loop. I wish I could help on finding someone. My area is ridiculously underserved in the mental health arena.

What do you mean by nuanced?
She's also always done things like she won't touch the cabinets with her hands, if I have her feed the dog she'll have a fit then spend 20 minutes scrubbing (I don't have her do it anymore) or like she won't let the other kids play with her after playing with play dough unless they wash their hands. She's had an on and off habit of licking her hand after she touches something "gross" and a few weird behaviors that have changed as she's grown. Honestly I did this kind of stuff to as a kid and still deal with it as an adult, particularly if I'm over tired or stressed. I've tried explaining it to therapists and got nowhere. I just hoped she would grow into a functioning adult and be able to better control her behaviors.
But this, I don't even know what to think.

[akafred]

Oct 5, 2017 20:30:31 GMT -5 chickypoo said:

Oct 5, 2017 19:27:13 GMT -5 akafred said:

That sounds very nuanced. Obviously the voices are concerning, but so is the ritualistic behavior that she uses to stop it, almost like closing an OCD loop. I wish I could help on finding someone. My area is ridiculously underserved in the mental health arena.

What do you mean by nuanced?
She's also always done things like she won't touch the cabinets with her hands, if I have her feed the dog she'll have a fit then spend 20 minutes scrubbing (I don't have her do it anymore) or like she won't let the other kids play with her after playing with play dough unless they wash their hands. She's had an on and off habit of licking her hand after she touches something "gross" and a few weird behaviors that have changed as she's grown. Honestly I did this kind of stuff to as a kid and still deal with it as an adult, particularly if I'm over tired or stressed. I've tried explaining it to therapists and got nowhere. I just hoped she would grow into a functioning adult and be able to better control her behaviors.
But this, I don't even know what to think.

I just meant it sounds like possibly a blend of issues or overlap of some kind.

I have been listening to a wonderful series of podcasts called "AT Parenting Survival Podcast." AT apparently stands for Anxious Toddlers, which is the title of one of her books, but it is for all ages. She also has the website www.anxioustoddlers.com. But the podcasts are really great. She is a child therapist who has anxiety and mom of three kids all who have anxiety. OCD runs in her family and one of the kids has OCD-like tendencies (not quite over the edge to full on OCD). Her podcasts are all about anxiety of some kind, but I would say 1/3-1/2 are specific or delve deeply into OCD. One episode is about OCD "themes" such as contamination, which from your last post is where my mind immediately jumped. She also just finished up an e-course for OCD parenting, which has a cost associated so I can't vouch for it, but the podcasts are free and really good (but a bit too short; I need MORE!).

[akafred]

So when you call therapists, I would ask specifically if they have experience with OCD and ritualistic behaviors, and hearing voices. I would ask if they are qualified to make a diagnosis. If they specifically see kids. What kind of therapy they do in most cases.

[akafred]

Sorry to keep posting, but I Googled "OCD hearing voices" and got a number of hits indicating that it is not uncommon for people with OCD to hear voices and be concerned about a condition like schizophrenia, but it usually is not. I definitely think you should look into this as well as try to get your DD a proper dx and treatment plan even if it is "only" OCD, but that would help me breathe a little easier meanwhile.

[chickypoo]

Oct 5, 2017 21:44:45 GMT -5 akafred said:

Sorry to keep posting, but I Googled "OCD hearing voices" and got a number of hits indicating that it is not uncommon for people with OCD to hear voices and be concerned about a condition like schizophrenia, but it usually is not. I definitely think you should look into this as well as try to get your DD a proper dx and treatment plan even if it is "only" OCD, but that would help me breathe a little easier meanwhile.

You're totally fine. I feel like with all I've dealt with lately my brain doesn't even know how to process this. Something simple and emergent, I know what to do. This, not so much. Like I can't even find emotions for it.
Meds scare me for her though. I know they can help in some situations, I just don't want her to deal with bad side effects. Or be like the kids I saw in nursing school. Those poor kids were on so many meds and just looked all doped up. It was sad.
I appreciate your posts and your help.

[auntie]

Oct 5, 2017 22:30:30 GMT -5 chickypoo said:

Oct 5, 2017 21:44:45 GMT -5 akafred said:

Sorry to keep posting, but I Googled "OCD hearing voices" and got a number of hits indicating that it is not uncommon for people with OCD to hear voices and be concerned about a condition like schizophrenia, but it usually is not. I definitely think you should look into this as well as try to get your DD a proper dx and treatment plan even if it is "only" OCD, but that would help me breathe a little easier meanwhile.

You're totally fine. I feel like with all I've dealt with lately my brain doesn't even know how to process this. Something simple and emergent, I know what to do. This, not so much. Like I can't even find emotions for it.
Meds scare me for her though. I know they can help in some situations, I just don't want her to deal with bad side effects. Or be like the kids I saw in nursing school. Those poor kids were on so many meds and just looked all doped up. It was sad.
I appreciate your posts and your help.

When DS was say 6ish to about 8, he sometimes ascribed his compulsive urges as "voices telling me to..." which sounded more concerning than it actually was. 

I didn't throw that out there because your DD is at an age where puberty and mental illness onset are factors and because you posted this as a new behavior. It's still worthy of a top notch psychiatrist/therapist combination. I know you probably bring a lot of skin to this, if this behavior is also something that you have lived with yourself. But unchecked it will likely escalate along with the consequences. 

Nobody wants to put their child on psychoactive medications- I mean duh- but a low dose SSRI is generally very effective for true OCD and "milder" types of compulsive behavior, especially when used in the context of CBT. I would be a whole lot less afraid of side effects (since the child is still under your roof) than I would be of sending an already anxious child to middle school with a roster of stigmatizing compulsive behaviors. 

[akafred]

Here is a short video by the AT person (Natasha Daniels) on identifying OCD rituals and differentiating them from habits or quirks. It might help get you started identifying if this is OCD you're seeing. At the end is an ad for the at home class on OCD.
www.anxioustoddlers.com/ocd-compulsion/

Here is a list of podcasts. You can see a number of them are on OCD, and even if not identified as such, probably another 1/3 of the videos do touch on OCD.
www.anxioustoddlers.com/category/podcast/
P.S. Episode 30 was suggested by one of her listeners. That listener is me.

[chickypoo]

auntie I haven't personally dealt with the voices though, that's all new territory. The behaviors I have though.

The voices aren't new for her though, she mentioned it years ago. I just thought it was her working things out herself in her head. So apparently I dropped the ball on that one. But what is the age range on the puberty/mental illness connection?

I sent the email, hopefully he has somewhere to point us.

[chickypoo]

akafred I'll check those out

[auntie]

chickypoo, there are certain mental illnesses that reveal in the ages between puberty and about age 25. Bipolar and schizophrenia among them.

There were 2 boys your DD's age when DS was in 5th and 6th who developed some very serious issues (bipolar on top of ASD for the one and some sort of psychopathy for the other). Both ended up being sent to a RTF where meds were tweaked along with inpatient tx. Both returned to the district by the start of 9th. The boy with ASD/Bipolar was in a smaller ASD-support setting with individualized instruction, the other boy returned to mainstream and GT classes. DS said they were in much better shape when they returned. It's an extreme example, but I put it out there to make the point that kids can do better with proper interventions.

The son of one of DH's colleagues developed schizophrenia in his 2nd year of law school. He's not enjoyed as happy an outcome. He hates the meds he needs to take but is unemployable without them. He never returned to law and works in IT these days.

[chickypoo]

Oh, I meant to ask- what is CBT?

[auntie]

Cognitive Behavior Therapy.

[waverly]

My uncle is schizophrenic although my mom say he is bipolar. He is related to my dad, not my mom, so I don't know if what she says is true or what I had heard earlier is true, and my parents are now divorced.

Anyway, my dad said he was always a strange kid which I guess we might characterize as "off" nowadays. So there were prior indicators, but his hit in puberty around 14-16.

I didn't realize it could hit as late as 25. His is really bad, but I don't imagine there was as good of treatment back then, and there is a family history.

I don't have as much experience with OCD, and OCD could be a possible cause maybe.

[auntie]

Oct 6, 2017 15:30:55 GMT -5 waverly said:

My uncle is schizophrenic although my mom say he is bipolar. He is related to my dad, not my mom, so I don't know if what she says is true or what I had heard earlier is true, and my parents are now divorced.

Anyway, my dad said he was always a strange kid which I guess we might characterize as "off" nowadays. So there were prior indicators, but his hit in puberty around 14-16.

I didn't realize it could hit as late as 25. His is really bad, but I don't imagine there was as good of treatment back then, and there is a family history.

I don't have as much experience with OCD, and OCD could be a possible cause maybe.

That's so sad. There is better tx today, but it isn't effective for all and it comes with serious side effects. 

My sister was diagnosed with bipolar (although I feel she seemed more borderline in many respects); her younger DD also has a bipolar dx. My sister was in her mid-20's and my niece was still a teenager at the time of dx. Both were dxd with ADHD as children, but always seemed more "different" than "just ADHD". They were both bright but intensely impulsive with almost no self regulations skills despite being charismatic as younger kids