MOOKs - "making things just right" for your kids

[akafred]

How much do you make things "just right" for your kids? I find myself doing this more and more, and I need to figure out where the line is between setting DD up for success, and making her dependent. I think a lot of this is tough because she has anxiety including social anxiety, but she is a highly social/extroverted person.

Example: DD got a new (used) pair of inline skates and wants to try them out at the skating rink. She can go Thursday or Saturday. She has been complaining about skating lately because her friend B doesn't go as much anymore (someone she met AT the rink) and she would prefer to have a friend there. Sometimes she'll flat refuse to go places like skating or a trampoline place unless a friend goes. So I find myself texting people to see if anyone can go skating. Now, she'll go this week because new skates, but when that wears off, she won't. Meanwhile the more I accommodate this by always arranging to have a friend there, the less willing she is going to be to go *unless* a friend can go. Meanwhile she needs exercise.

Example 2: Summer (day) camps. It's planning time again. The pattern of camps usually goes like this: DD starts new camp for a week. Monday she is excited to go, because new camp. Monday and Tuesday nights she is a little grumpy, maybe because she is tired. Wednesday she doesn't want to go because she doesn't have friends and everyone is mean to her. Supposedly. Thursday getting her out the door is hard, but she comes home saying she made a friend. Friday she has a good day. Most of these specialty camps are one week. For the longer camps, she makes a friend toward the end of the first week and then overall there is a honeymoon period of a couple few weeks and then she starts getting in trouble at camp, so I have been breaking the camps up to be in 3 week chunks with a new camp in the middle.

And I just think I am overplanning this and it needs to stop, or slow down. I do it to try to set her up for success, but at what cost? But I am also not convinced she can be fully successful, or AS successful (because she is far from "fully successful"), without it. So, just curious, how much do you all do this?

[xctsclrx]

akafred , My DS is 3 so take this for what it is worth.

1st example: I completely understand why she wants to go with a friend. (I was an only child until I was 11) however, instead of you making the plans push that back on her. We are going to skate this day at this time. Ask your friends if they want to come. If you don't do it, then you don't get to bring one.

2nd example- She is 8? 9? I think you are okay doing this still. But maybe you can start increase from 3 weeks to 5 weeks and then have only two camps. That way you are progressing her to be successful in a full summer camp?

1 week camps can be hard especially if you don't make friends easily. If there are one week camps I would go the extra mile to ensure a friend is going with.

For what you are doing and dealing with. I wouldn't go straight from over planning to doing nothing, but give her stepping stones so you both can end up where you want to be.

[justcheckingin73]

I admit I do this too much for my kids. They tend to be more introverted and less social. The camp example resonated with me. I used to send DD to summer camp and the same thing happened - if someone she knew was there, it was great, if not, she would cling to me or get upset. I have a really hard time with this and many times would give in or pick her up early - oftentimes at the expense of my sanity.

DS is even worse. He has a hard time with anything new or different and any kind of transition. He used to freak out with substitutes or if something changed in the schedule (say meeting his class someplace different). I have so much built up and left over anxiety from all of the meltdowns he had when he was younger that I find myself trying to avoid upsetting him at all. He’s gotten so much better at handling things but the result is what you said - I try to make things just right.

I’m finally getting to a point where I am pulling back and expecting more but it’s been a lot of trial and error. I wish DH would help out more because he’s not as emotional about these things but he tends to armchair parent and throw things out there but not follow through. Or DS will ask me something and he’ll interrupt, tell him what he thinks and then I’m stuck if I feel differently. It’s enraging.

[mommyatty]

This is hard. I get where your struggle is, and I’m with you.

To a great extent, I’ve started leaving the early decisions up to DD but then she lives with her decision. For example, she wanted to do cheerleading, and none of her friends were. So we warned her ahead of time the other kids might all go to the same public school and she might be the only one without a friend. She still wanted to do it. On days when she gripes about going to games (she loves all practices, across all sports and hates all games), we reminded her she had made a commitment and her team needed her. So she was going and wasn’t going to act like a brat. Now, this was complicated by all the parents of kids who skipped alllll the time or let their kids act like jerks (the sponsor’s daughter was the prime example).

My solution might be very different, though, if DD wasn’t extremely self-confident. She is a master at making “friends”. And by “friends” I mean that she played with a random kid, has no idea what their name is, but declares they are her new friend and is happy as a clam.

I’m trying very hard to foster that ability in her and her brother. I think walking into a new situation and making people’s acquaintance is hard. I’m not good at it. So I want them to have lots of practice now. But if it made them miserable? I don’t know that I could do it.

[2chatter]

My kids are responsible for anything that’s a “need” that isn’t something a parent has to do. Backpack snacks, homework in bag, where their shoes are, sports uniforms, etc. They can ask me to help with laundry if it’s an off cycle game but it’s not my job to have everything ready - it’s theirs. DD left her binder at home today. I’m not lifting a finger.

The older two coordinate their social lives almost entirely beyond securing parent permission. They do this at school and through text (4th and 8th grades). They coordinate friends for camps and special events.

For “wants” I of course help some. Like spur of the moment things or friends who aren’t responding to texts because fourth graders are thankfully not as attached to devices. But I often just say no to friends because of logistics. The difference for you akafred is no siblings...as an only child I would almost always bring a friend if I had an only child. Doing fun things is way less fun alone. My kids have each other.

[akafred]

I do have some only child "guilt", for lack of a better word. Not exactly guilt but I know some of these things would be easier/different if she had a sibling. At the same time I think she "gets away with" more because she has no siblings (like me doing more for her around the house than I would if she had siblings). And that is something I've been putting a lot of thought to also. And DH is totally an enabler when it comes to doing stuff for her, in part because he was kind of immature in some ways and doesn't see it as a problem, but also because it's easier just to get it done. She is 8 1/2 and he still carries her around a fair amount because she makes the "up" motion with her hands or complains she is tired. I quit that noise years ago. He fed her for a really long time and still does if she is taking too long to eat. Yes, he still feeds her at 8. He still holds her pants for her to step into because she takes too long to get dressed and he's the one responsible for getting her dressed on weekday mornings. I try not to say anything because he gets offended easily and honestly he has to find his way with her too, but it creates this dynamic where she cooks her own dinner for me and has to be carried out of bed, fed with a spoon, and dressed by him. (Keeping in mind that she does have ADHD and is generally really damn uncooperative, so in some ways what is easiest is what he feels stuck to do just to get it done.) Whole other SOS there. But yeah getting her to be responsible for her backpack isn't likely to happen because I can't get DH to get her to be responsible for eating food by herself!

[akafred]

I'm actually kind of horrified having written all that out. I need to have a H2H w/DH. It hasn't really occurred to me how bad it is. It kind of creeps on, little by little. Or really it's stuff she never outgrows until she's way too old. And I am not one to push beyond development and stick to "by age 8 she should be ____", but a lot of this is just holding her back.

[justcheckingin73]

akafred, it happens so easily sometimes. My kids are 6 years apart so I can relate on some level. Since she’s an only, you don’t have an older kid that you’ve BTDT with or a younger kid with additional needs. I remember doing things for my first for a long time because it’s not like she ever said - mom you can stop doing that. It didn’t even occur to me. It didn’t happen until my high maintenance DS came along and I realized that DD can do more. 

[supertrooper1]

Jan 24, 2018 10:36:39 GMT -5 justcheckingin73 said:

akafred , it happens so easily sometimes. My kids are 6 years apart so I can relate on some level. Since she’s an only, you don’t have an older kid that you’ve BTDT with or a younger kid with additional needs. I remember doing things for my first for a long time because it’s not like she ever said - mom you can stop doing that. It didn’t even occur to me. It didn’t happen until my high maintenance DS came along and I realized that DD can do more. 

This is so true for me. DS shocked me the other day because he took a mandarin orange and peeled it all by himself.  Just little things that he can now do on his own, but I just assumed he wasn't able to do it yet.  He's an only too, so I have a feeling I may cater to him a lot just because I can. 

[akafred]

I mean, yeah, but I think DH knows that 8 year olds should be able to eat independently. He just doesn't know how to get her to actually do it without feeding her, since she is a very distracted eater and he is unwilling to suffer the consequences of her not eating (she gets hungry and school would be a disaster). Same for dressing, and so on. He has to get her to school. Easier to do it for her than to make her do it.

In many ways DD is extremely independent. In some ways she is extremely the opposite.

[2chatter]

Well, I still carry the younger two and one of them is TEN! But that’s at home and this sweet thing - not because she won’t walk. So maybe there’s a nice middle ground for DH? With DD I told her no way am I carrying her upstairs to bed if she hasn’t cleaned up, gotten ready for the next day, etc. She knows if something is off that extras are off the table.

And until last year in third grade I had to help dress her. Here I implemented natural consequences. If she doesn’t get dressed on time the next morning I wake her ten minutes earlier, and she hates that. Maybe help DH figure out her hot buttons and ADHD strategies?

It’s all so hard! My three are polar opposites in terms of motivation.

[traveltheworld]

I bargain a lot. DS used to have a pretty high level of anxiety (we sought counseling), so I'd bend over backwards to ensure that he is in a class/camp with someone he knows and feels comfortable with, because otherwise he just shuts down and won't participate. My running joke with DH during those years was that I'd be-friend anyone as long as they offer me a play-date, because I was so desperate for DS to make friends.

Now that he is 5.5 and seems pretty social, I've started leaving more things in his hands. I genuinely believe that he needs to learn that life is not always going to be fun and he is not always going to be happy or comfortable with a situation.

So for example, I'd try to arrange a summer camp with his best friend, but the bargain is that he has to agree to go do another camp by himself, even if he doesn't want to, and I will not tolerate any whining about it (even though he still whines, but at least I try to set up the expectation). Another example is that there's a little boy on his soccer team that DS really wants to have a play date with, I told him that if he asks that boy himself and confirm that they both want a play date, then I'll arrange the logistics with his mom. It has been 2 weeks and DS hasn't done it yet, and I have no plans to step in and help. Although if he still doesn't ask next week, I might try practicing with him on what he could say to make it easier for him.

[mustardseed2007]

akafred, does your school offer parenting classes at all? I just ask b/c I know you do the montessori thing which, at the younger ages, is heavily focused on getting kids to do self care independently. When we were in the toddler class especially, they would have classes centered on getting parents to let their kids do all aspects of self care on their own from getting dressed to making breakfast, definitely eating and walking. And they will actually say something to you if you walk in holding your child (which is SO easy for me to do with DD b/c she's small and can be really pokey).

Sometimes hearing it from a "professional" really helps, particularly with DH. Through the school we actually took a love and logic parenting seminar. Some of their suggestions are totally OTT but it was very helpful in getting me and H on the same page about the kids needing to do stuff for themselves.

Although larger aspects of wanting to shield the kids from mean kids or mean teachers is always going to be a major challenge for me.

[waverly]

When kids were little I did pretty much nothing for them socially.

I started attending birthday parties in K for DS and pre-K for DD. Other than that it was just hang out with family friends or family.

Now that he is 7, I am trying to move into the drop off play date because I feel like I should. Like it's the right age. So I'm trying to be social for him a little.

I've never coordinated friends for sports or classes. I did coordinate for Boy Scouts but they ended up in a different den anyway. 2 dens for his grade.

He isn't the type to need a friend at places but sometimes a friend is motivation for him to go. It's developing more with age. Camp is organically a lot of kids he knows. He did struggle with switching from daycare to aftercare. He only goes to one camp all summer though. This year he may do a sleepaway camp. He's an independent introvert like me and has a sister that he plays with so it's totally different for us.

Maybe just set a limit like one friend activity a week rather than trying to coordinate 4 friend outings in a week (for example).

When I was reading your different style of parenting I was thinking you both need to get on the same page. And then you typed about a heart to heart with your H.

[kimberlybb]

akafred , I also have this problem with DH. We don’t have congruent expectations for the kids so it leads to a lot of frustration. I attended an open house last night for the Montessori magnet program we would like both kids to attend next year. I walked away from the meeting feeling like a total schmuck for doing way too much for DS. I made a mental list last night of all the things I need to have him start doing by himself and it was a little overwhelming. I need to get a place where I’m more comfortable with letting the kids fail so they can learn from their mistakes.

[akafred]

mustardseed2007, it's a good thought, and I would if I could. But there are a few obstacles:

1) He is super sensitive. Whenever I try to talk to him about this kind of thing (or anything) he just shuts down as though offended, which he probably is. Or if he disagrees he just stops talking. We rarely actually disagree about big things, but when we do we just have to avoid. It sucks. I have to be careful about not sounding like I'm telling him what to do, even when I am. For example, she is trialing short acting Ritalin again. He wants to give her the dose as she is going into school or leaving for school so she has the benefit of the med as long as possible. I want him to give it when she wakes up at 7 so it might help him get her ready for school. But also because if it lasts 4 hours, work cycles are over around 11:30 and they are doing lunch anyway. She doesn't need Ritalin at lunch. In fact, it suppresses the appetite so there is a risk she will not eat her lunch and then double-crash in the afternoon coming off the med with an empty stomach. He thinks we're arguing and just shuts down and does it his way anyway. Which...fine, have it your way. But I am right in this case. I realize we need help with communication, but he hates even the idea of therapy.

2) He won't read parenting books, he won't listen to audiobooks, etc. I can get him to read an article or watch a short video, maybe, and he'll listen if I summarize, but he doesn't want to spend his time on it.

3) He doesn't have time for classes. He works evenings and that is when most are offered. Weekends are games and practice (he coaches). He also poo poos it a little, especially therapy. If I summarize a therapy session, he will make snide remarks. Then I end up either joining in (some of it annoys me), defending it, or just not talking about it.

He needs tools in his toolbox. I have a few tools but no good way to share them. And we're both barely keeping our heads above water with DD most of the time. I always feel like if we can get her into a steady state then maybe we can work on the stuff we really need to work on, but she seems to get worse and worse off and I am losing hope with meds. So far so good on the current combo but it is early (and all benefit is at school, none at home really at least ADHD-wise).

[akafred]

Basically it's not like I am MOTY with DD. So who am I to tell him how to do it? But his way doesn't work either and is contrary to my actual goals with her. He doesn't have parenting goals. He just tries not to yell...and then yells.

[freezorburn]

I’m sure I do this quite a bit, but I have come to think of it as scaffolding — providing support with a view towards specific behavioral goals. Over time once the desired behavior is learned, scaffolding can slowly be removed. And sometimes it needs to be put back in place when regression happens.

[186momx]

akafred, My DH is very similar and still does stuff for DD that she can do on her own. It is mainly carrying her through the parking lot as she walks too slow or putting her in the cart. This is stuff she does on her own with me but he insists and gets very annoyed when I point out she can walk or do it herself without you. He wants it fast and now. This behavior drove me crazy when DD was the infant/toddler stage as he never was able to keep up with her changing abilities and would finally get it and she was already onto the next stage.

I would probably sit Char down and remind her that she is 8 and probably all of her friends can dress/feed themselves and you know that mornings are hard but could the two of you figure out a way to make her morning routine more independent. I'm thinking maybe a goal chart and then you can present it to DH that Char's goal is to be dressed by herself by 7am every morning with the reward of a sleepover with a friend.
Could you ask Char if she would rather take the meds 1st thing so she has a good morning or would rather wait until she walks into class and see what she has to say?

I have an only and know the only guilt well but my DD is the opposite and tries to act like the adult all the time and wants to do it herself. She actually very seldom asks for a friend to go with her to open gym or swim (I usually have to ask if she wants to see if X can go too and she normally tells me no). She will play with whoever is there but is happy to be on her own. I just ventured into camps last year and we just did gymnastic camp and she had no issues but then she already knew all the coaches since she does gym there anyways. She did make buddies at each camp outside of her normal classmates that were also at camp. I was also worried about switching daycares this fall but it turned out great and she had a much better transition to before/after care than she has with school and has more friends there than at her school.

[waverly]

Jan 24, 2018 13:33:45 GMT -5 akafred said:

Basically it's not like I am MOTY with DD. So who am I to tell him how to do it? But his way doesn't work either and is contrary to my actual goals with her. He doesn't have parenting goals. He just tries not to yell...and then yells.

I think you are in the right here. Even if he doesn't have parenting goals one goal that is unstated but inherent to parenting is they get more independent as they grow up.

[akafred]

186momx, charts make anxiety worse, but I have tried to have conversations about making mornings easier without any benefit whatsoever. Like we can agree to pick her clothes out and have them ready for her to wear the next morning and we have tried this a number of times, but she changes her mind in the morning and wants to pick out a different outfit and then apologizes and feels deep failure that she changed her mind, but she still changes her mind. And he accommodates it. Ultimately it is on him to make mornings go better with her, but he chooses his battles to avoid meltdowns and it never gets better. I do it too, in the evenings, but not as much and at least I make attempts to improve things.

Ultimately anxiety plus ADHD sucks ass. There are no good answers when the meds don't help or don't help much/enough.

[freezorburn]

akafred, I get the whole picking your battles, plus with ADHD I guess you are probably dealing with moving targets as far as desirable behaviors go. If YH thinks it's not problematic for him to accommodate DD, then it will be hard to convince him to change the way he handles the behaviors that you describe. He needs to Get that approaching things with his current tool kit is not going to bring about progress. And if he is resistant to so many different ways of acquiring new tools, think about who/what he might be receptive to. If not a book, or a class, or a professional, is there a friend? Another parent, who he feels comfortable talking to? I think for some people, admitting they haven't got parenting all figured out, puts them in a very vulnerable place.

[dcrunnergirl52]

My son (7) has ADHD so I totally sympathize, especially with the morning routine. Have you tried other, longer acting meds? We had to do some trial and error and have found concerta works best for him and lasts for 10 hours. We really try to give it to him about 30 minutes before he needs to start getting ready but it doesn't always happen.

On those mornings, it's a complete disaster with me having to dress him, breakfast spilled everywhere, DH and I beyond frustrated and yelling, etc. I so would like him to be able to conquer the morning routine without meds and us doing everything for him, but even with routine charts and other supports, he can't do it. It's like trying to reason with a drunken 18 year old.

Anyway, not much advice but sympathy to another parent dealing with ADHD.

[2chatter]

I just had a thought - we are going to ask about appetite stimulants - part of the autonomic stuff is a lack of hunger and early satiety if she does eat...wondering if there’s a low risk easy way to work around that side effect?

[akafred]

Jan 27, 2018 16:56:21 GMT -5 dcrunnergirl52 said:

My son (7) has ADHD so I totally sympathize, especially with the morning routine. Have you tried other, longer acting meds? We had to do some trial and error and have found concerta works best for him and lasts for 10 hours. We really try to give it to him about 30 minutes before he needs to start getting ready but it doesn't always happen.

On those mornings, it's a complete disaster with me having to dress him, breakfast spilled everywhere, DH and I beyond frustrated and yelling, etc. I so would like him to be able to conquer the morning routine without meds and us doing everything for him, but even with routine charts and other supports, he can't do it. It's like trying to reason with a drunken 18 year old.

Anyway, not much advice but sympathy to another parent dealing with ADHD.

Yeah we've tried it all. Stimulants all seem to make DD's anxiety worse. Her anxiety is actually terrible, probably worse than her ADHD which is pretty bad. So her anxiety is BAD. Concerta, Focalin, Ritalin, Adderal, Vyvanse. The only one that doesn't exarcerbate the anxiety (so far; that could change) is Ritalin short acting. And that is because it is a TINY dose. Half the lowest dose actually.

Right now she is on 3 meds for ADHD: Ritalin, Strattera, and Guanfacine. We also tried Prozac for anxiety but it made the ADHD worse and cause some other untenable side effects, and the going off of it was terrible.