It really depends on the neighborhood and the location of the house. I've lived in two subdivisions without sidewalks and it was fine because there was minimal traffic. I currently live in one with sidewalks and other than walking the dogs, I don't use them because I have to drive to everything. Just because a place has sidewalks doesn't make it a more "walkable" neighborhood.
But wouldn’t it make more sense to assess taxes and pay for them that way instead of billing it homeowner by homeowner? In some neighborhoods the sidewalk is just on one side of the street and obviously residents on both sides use them. A 10k charge to replace a small section of sidewalk piecemeal every 7-10 years for half the homeowners on the street feels silly and excessive (you have to go through the city to replace, and the company that does them is outrageously expensive.) Plus replacing section by section as people come up with the money is inefficient and silly. Just tax me and get it over with!
Put it on a ballot and run with it! Given that it is hard to get tax revenues for things like library services and schools, I don’t know how universal sidewalks will fare with city voters. I’m not sure I have a fundamental problem with assigning the sidwalk burden to property owners rather than spreading it out to non property owners.
We had three squares to repair due to cracks that could cause injury. The city gave us a quote but allowed us to bid out. I think it came to $500.
I live in a city now so sidewalks are a given. But growing up in a suburb there weren’t sidewalks all over, including on a very busy road that has a big park/nature center walk area. And for years every attempt to get a sidewalk built on that road was resisted. Until there was a fatal accident and a pedestrian was killed. Then the sidewalk was FINALLY built. But it took the death of a human being to get the town to do it.
No sidewalks is a marker for affluent for some folks.
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This is interesting, any idea why? We just moved into a more affluent neighborhood that does not have sidewalks but I just assumed it was bc it was older not preferred? The lots are all really big and we have a circle drive, so not having a sidewalk does help with shoveling, but id still prefer one. We do live on a very quiet street across from a park so at least outdoor play isn’t hindered too much.
NM: I see answered above. We are a friendly Iowan neighborhood so I don’t *think* it’s due to snobs (fingers crossed)
Maybe not snobbery, but there are people who really believe that sidewalks increase crime (though it’s been shown otherwise). They don’t want people walking through the neighborhood and in front of their houses.
These are usually the same neighborhoods with large lots, with the houses set back from the street, for the same reason.
But wouldn’t it make more sense to assess taxes and pay for them that way instead of billing it homeowner by homeowner? In some neighborhoods the sidewalk is just on one side of the street and obviously residents on both sides use them. A 10k charge to replace a small section of sidewalk piecemeal every 7-10 years for half the homeowners on the street feels silly and excessive (you have to go through the city to replace, and the company that does them is outrageously expensive.) Plus replacing section by section as people come up with the money is inefficient and silly. Just tax me and get it over with!
How deep on this do you want to go? LOL! Like I said, my job deals directly with this, and it's so complicated. We have an entire database that tracks the conditions of sidewalks throughout the City. It's a billion dollars worth of infrastructure, and we're relatively small. Plus, you have to factor in the liability to the City for accepting responsibility of bad sidewalks. That would remove it from the homeowners, and place it squarely on the city's shoulders. Which, again, is billions of dollars. So you'd be paying 1) for the maintenance, and 2) for the insurance for the city with your taxes.
Hahah! Well I defer to you because you know a lot more about it than I do! But the current system seems to result in constant piecemeal construction and very poor sidewalk maintenance, which is a hazard and also an ADA violation as you’ve pointed out. In some cases the city just gives up trying to get the homeowners to repair and then there are sections of sidewalk missing. Out of curiosity, if the responsibility lies with homeowners for installation and repair, is the city off the hook for ADA compliance? Who is a compliance suit against in that case?
with, but they are rare around here. we settled for a road wide enough for street parking and still have two cars pass safely. there are many twisty hillside roads with blind corners and barely enough room for cars to pass each other, let alone parking or sidewalks.
To give you guys an idea of how much this all costs, we had a neighborhood that was annexed into the city. Code says that they must bring their streets into compliance if they want to city accept responsibility for the street maintenance. Now that their streets are literally falling apart, they have to rebuild the street and add curb, gutter, and sidewalk. $20k for every house in that neighborhood. Immediately. I don't know how the HOA collected the money, but it's coming into compliance soon.
Our development is 50 years old, with no sidewalks. I wish it had them, but honestly we aren't a throughway to anywhere, so it's really not an issue to just walk/bike in the street. Folks walk/run/bike our neighborhood all the time, so in our instance it hasn't made much difference.
Having said that, the ability to go for a walk/run directly from my house was basically my only requirement when we were house-hunting. We eliminated a lot of homes on busier roads because there were no sidewalks or connections to a walking path.
Post by MixedBerryJam on Mar 13, 2018 11:39:46 GMT -5
I haven't read the whole thread but why does your h think it might be better? I live in a neighborhood that's half-and-half ( We're all private ways but we don't have an HOA) and I detest no sidewalks with the fire of 10,000 suns. I purposely walk where a sidewalk would be and if it wrecks your lawn, too bad. Maybe you should put in a dann sidewalk.
Post by penguingrrl on Mar 13, 2018 11:42:20 GMT -5
Also, if you have them look into laws. We discovered in the past few years that our town doesn’t have a snow clearing ordinance. I called the police dept because H kept having to walk before sunrise on a busy street because the sidewalks were impassable after a storm and found out our town doesn’t have a law requiring clearing. I approached our mayor and he has been trying and the measure keeps failing because people decided it’s not fair to fine people when only some people have sidewalks and others don’t and it would place an unfair burden on the elderly. It makes me angry that it’s seen this way rather than the unfair burden on children and those who count on a safe walking route to get to work or public transit.
Repairs and having sidewalks redone every few decades are done by the town as part of our tax burden. We’re in NJ so our taxes are high, but at least we get certain services.
For me, it depends. If the neighborhood is isolated from through traffic, I'm ok with no sidewalks, as they're a liability/hazard for homeowners. I grew up in a neighborhood without (and my mom still lives there) and people just walk in the street/step into someone's lawn when the rare car is coming. It is an extremely quiet neighborhood, though (three total blocks). If the neighborhood has through traffic or is larger, I'd prefer sidewalks (and, more specifically, sidewalks with curb grass/landscaping) for sake of safety.
Which is ok as long as you don't have any mobility issues. Try doing that in a wheelchair or a walker.
Look, I'm all for ADA access. One of my friends is a complicated medical patient and documents a lot of the violations she finds on Facebook. It's ridiculous what she goes through, especially living in a major city. If it is walkable, it should be accessible. Period.
However, the difference between a city neighborhood and my mom's semi-rural subdivision is night and day as regards traffic. The street is wide, traffic is extremely light (1-2 cars per hour, maybe), and no one is parking on the street, so visibility is high. The neighborhood is not walkable to anywhere, except around the block for exercise on a nice evening. There are no through streets, and the only people who enter/exit the neighborhood live there (they don't even get pizza delivery). A wheelchair user or walker user (like my dad, back when he was alive) can just stay in the street without concern for their safety if they're out taking a walk. Moving to the grass is only precautionary and I've never felt unsafe choosing either option.
How deep on this do you want to go? LOL! Like I said, my job deals directly with this, and it's so complicated. We have an entire database that tracks the conditions of sidewalks throughout the City. It's a billion dollars worth of infrastructure, and we're relatively small. Plus, you have to factor in the liability to the City for accepting responsibility of bad sidewalks. That would remove it from the homeowners, and place it squarely on the city's shoulders. Which, again, is billions of dollars. So you'd be paying 1) for the maintenance, and 2) for the insurance for the city with your taxes.
Hahah! Well I defer to you because you know a lot more about it than I do! But the current system seems to result in constant piecemeal construction and very poor sidewalk maintenance, which is a hazard and also an ADA violation as you’ve pointed out. In some cases the city just gives up trying to get the homeowners to repair and then there are sections of sidewalk missing. Out of curiosity, if the responsibility lies with homeowners for installation and repair, is the city off the hook for ADA compliance? Who is a compliance suit against in that case?
Because not all sidewalks are facing the same conditions they are not all going to need repair at the same time, thus the piecemeal nature.
I’m not exactly sure what recourse the city has when going after errant homeowners but they have tools, fines, levys, etc. And if someone is injured by our portion of the sidewalk, as the homeowners we are on the hook.
This all bothered me when we got a notice out of the blue to repair but the more I looked into it, the more sense it made.
Also, if you have them look into laws. We discovered in the past few years that our town doesn’t have a snow clearing ordinance. I called the police dept because H kept having to walk before sunrise on a busy street because the sidewalks were impassable after a storm and found out our town doesn’t have a law requiring clearing. I approached our mayor and he has been trying and the measure keeps failing because people decided it’s not fair to fine people when only some people have sidewalks and others don’t and it would place an unfair burden on the elderly. It makes me angry that it’s seen this way rather than the unfair burden on children and those who count on a safe walking route to get to work or public transit.
Repairs and having sidewalks redone every few decades are done by the town as part of our tax burden. We’re in NJ so our taxes are high, but at least we get certain services.
You called the police because a sidewalk wasn't cleared of snow on time?
With sidewalks. We are living in a neighborhood without sidewalks for the first time, I really didn't like that but we loved the house and the neighborhood. It hasn't been a huge issue, there isn't much traffic but walking your dog is weird. I always made him use the strip of grass between the sidewalk and the street but when people walk their dogs here they go up on the yards. *we aren't affluent either. We live outside the town limits, our taxes are way lower then the town so that might have something to do with it. They never plow the snow in my neighborhood, in Michigan. We get some salt trucks like a week after snowfall.
Post by clairedunphy on Mar 13, 2018 11:46:01 GMT -5
I prefer it. I want to walk safely with my kids, and I run a lot and prefer not to get run over by cars. Our neighborhood has sidewalks in 90% of the places, but there are a few random areas without and I avoid those areas when walking. But it is a busy street. If it was a low traffic area I would not avoid.
Also, if you have them look into laws. We discovered in the past few years that our town doesn’t have a snow clearing ordinance. I called the police dept because H kept having to walk before sunrise on a busy street because the sidewalks were impassable after a storm and found out our town doesn’t have a law requiring clearing. I approached our mayor and he has been trying and the measure keeps failing because people decided it’s not fair to fine people when only some people have sidewalks and others don’t and it would place an unfair burden on the elderly. It makes me angry that it’s seen this way rather than the unfair burden on children and those who count on a safe walking route to get to work or public transit.
Repairs and having sidewalks redone every few decades are done by the town as part of our tax burden. We’re in NJ so our taxes are high, but at least we get certain services.
You called the police because a sidewalk wasn't cleared of snow on time?
Three days after a storm the sidewalks were impassable, and there’s no other code enforcement option in my town. The mayors office and staff is in the police station.
Sidewalks. I love to sit out on the porch and watch all the people walking by my house. Plus places with sidewalks are places with markets, coffee shops, etc. right nearby. Car culture is just really not for me.
How deep on this do you want to go? LOL! Like I said, my job deals directly with this, and it's so complicated. We have an entire database that tracks the conditions of sidewalks throughout the City. It's a billion dollars worth of infrastructure, and we're relatively small. Plus, you have to factor in the liability to the City for accepting responsibility of bad sidewalks. That would remove it from the homeowners, and place it squarely on the city's shoulders. Which, again, is billions of dollars. So you'd be paying 1) for the maintenance, and 2) for the insurance for the city with your taxes.
Hahah! Well I defer to you because you know a lot more about it than I do! But the current system seems to result in constant piecemeal construction and very poor sidewalk maintenance, which is a hazard and also an ADA violation as you’ve pointed out. In some cases the city just gives up trying to get the homeowners to repair and then there are sections of sidewalk missing. Out of curiosity, if the responsibility lies with homeowners for installation and repair, is the city off the hook for ADA compliance? Who is a compliance suit against in that case?
The city is responsible for compliance but not maintenance. It's the city's responsibility to ensure that the infrastructure is up to standard for things like ramps. There's more leeway on sidewalk width, because those should have been constructed to some sort of standard at one time. Overall maintenance would probably fall to the homeowners if the city were sued, as most city's code specifically spells that out.
In my area sidewalks stop in the further-out parts of the city and suburbs (outside of home developments). I like sidewalks where we are because it's busy but it's NBD not to have them where my parents live (out in the 'burbs on a pretty dead street).
You called the police because a sidewalk wasn't cleared of snow on time?
Three days after a storm the sidewalks were impassable, and there’s no other code enforcement option in my town. The mayors office and staff is in the police station.
But, you still called the police and tracked down the mayor for an unshoveled sidewalk? The is the most suburban insanity ever, lol.
Which is ok as long as you don't have any mobility issues. Try doing that in a wheelchair or a walker.
Look, I'm all for ADA access. One of my friends is a complicated medical patient and documents a lot of the violations she finds on Facebook. It's ridiculous what she goes through, especially living in a major city. If it is walkable, it should be accessible. Period.
However, the difference between a city neighborhood and my mom's semi-rural subdivision is night and day as regards traffic. The street is wide, traffic is extremely light (1-2 cars per hour, maybe), and no one is parking on the street, so visibility is high. The neighborhood is not walkable to anywhere, except around the block for exercise on a nice evening. There are no through streets, and the only people who enter/exit the neighborhood live there (they don't even get pizza delivery). A wheelchair user or walker user (like my dad, back when he was alive) can just stay in the street without concern for their safety if they're out taking a walk. Moving to the grass is only precautionary and I've never felt unsafe choosing either option.
There really isn't a difference, especially when it comes to ADA laws, but ok.
Three days after a storm the sidewalks were impassable, and there’s no other code enforcement option in my town. The mayors office and staff is in the police station.
But, you still called the police and tracked down the mayor for an unshoveled sidewalk? The is the most suburban insanity ever, lol.
My husband was having to walk on a busy street while it was dark out, as were the neighborhood kids trying to get to school (many of whom had no option). Anywhere else I’ve lived had laws about clearing within 24 hours of snow stopping. And it was a widespread issue, not just one house.
Three days after a storm the sidewalks were impassable, and there’s no other code enforcement option in my town. The mayors office and staff is in the police station.
But, you still called the police and tracked down the mayor for an unshoveled sidewalk? The is the most suburban insanity ever, lol.
What would you do if a road you drove on daily was blocked and nobody was doing anything about it? Finding out how one goes about getting a sidewalk cleared is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. The folks in the DOT Of the county I work in most often get most of their cranky sidewalk calls from mobility impaired people who live in urbanized areas and don't have cars.
Three days after a storm the sidewalks were impassable, and there’s no other code enforcement option in my town. The mayors office and staff is in the police station.
But, you still called the police and tracked down the mayor for an unshoveled sidewalk? The is the most suburban insanity ever, lol.
Well, I wouldn't call the police, but if there were a sidewalk on my street that was in that bad of shape after 3 days, I'd probably call my alderman and the public works department. And I live in an urban neighborhood. I also have neighbors with varying levels of disabilities who use canes and walkers and motorized scooters to get around. Not shoveling a sidewalk is a public menace.
Three days after a storm the sidewalks were impassable, and there’s no other code enforcement option in my town. The mayors office and staff is in the police station.
But, you still called the police and tracked down the mayor for an unshoveled sidewalk? The is the most suburban insanity ever, lol.
Why, because you say so? It's a hazard, and again discriminatory to those that are differently-abled. These are exactly the issues that the mayor should get involved with. The police often act as code enforcement in towns, and she did not realize that it wasn't in the code.
I can see it being a matter of personal preference. I had sidewalks in my old neighborhood & never used them. In some neighborhoods with large lots (1 acre+) it wasn't realy necessary, but almost all the smaller neighborhoods around here, that are 50 years or younger, they have them.
Maybe b/c we had ltos of trees, but they always had cracks and uneven edges. They weren't really wide enough to run on side-by-side, so we always ran in the street. They were fine for running solo with my dog, but I had to be careful since I run in the dark. Also, where lots of people park in the driveway, their cars block the sidewalk, so you had to go into the street anyway.
Once I had a baby (newborn), I didn't like dealing with all the bumps/ramps, so we ran/walked in the street.
Gonna be honest, I would be cursing you daily if you were my neighbor. People running and walking in the street is one of my pet peeves as a driver when we have SIDEWALKS RIGHT THERE. I also hate the people who ride their bikes on the sidewalk, especially when we have BIKE LANES RIGHT THERE.
Three days after a storm the sidewalks were impassable, and there’s no other code enforcement option in my town. The mayors office and staff is in the police station.
But, you still called the police and tracked down the mayor for an unshoveled sidewalk? The is the most suburban insanity ever, lol.
Is it a walkable neighborhood and like she mentioned, the elderly and others may need the sidewalk to get places? My neighborhood doesn't have sidewalks, but our small city does and when there is snow accumulation, its a huge issue for the many people who walk or bike ride as their primary mode of transportation. If sidewalks aren't cleared, people walk on the side of the road, which is incredibly dangerous .
But, you still called the police and tracked down the mayor for an unshoveled sidewalk? The is the most suburban insanity ever, lol.
Why, because you say so? It's a hazard, and again discriminatory to those that are differently-abled. These are exactly the issues that the mayor should get involved with. The police often act as code enforcement in towns, and she did not realize that it wasn't in the code.
Seriously. Has she ever seen someone with a disability who uses a scooter to get around get stuck in the snow? It's awful. It happened in front of my own building because my shitty management hadn't shoveled. Some other people got the woman unstuck, and I was able to find someone in the building to clear the walk. People with disabilities shouldn't be homebound all winter.