Help with IEP goals

[funchicken]

DD1 is in 4th grade, and she just qualified for services after receiving an ASD diagnosis two weeks ago. She is best described as a nuance-challenged social learner according to MGW. She tests at above the 97th %tile in reading and writing, and has average math skills. Because of the large discrepancy between DD's reading abilities and her math abilities, math causes her a significant amount of anxiety. She has difficulty with perspective-taking, non-verbal communication, working in groups, and spends a lot of time doodling during class.  

We received notice that our IEP meeting will be in two weeks. The special education teacher called me this morning and asked me what I want her IEP goals to be. I wasn't prepared for the question, and I kinda have no idea what I'm doing. I asked the special education teacher to talk to the SLP because the SLP knows DD and has observed her in small group situations. I think incorporating movement and drawing breaks into DD's day would hopefully help with the all day doodling. Drawing is a soothing activity for her and since it's not disruptive or stigmatizing, I think it's okay for her to do it, but I don't want it to interfere with things she needs to be learning. 

I would like DD to have help working on her small group skills. They asked me if I wanted her to have a weekly pull-out for social skills, but that's hugely dependent on how that would be structured. If the pull-out is with a small group of girls who have similar social deficits to DD's, then I could see it being helpful, but I'm also worried about the disruption of her being pulled out of class. She was pulled out a bunch of times this quarter for all of the evaluations, and she ended up with 5 missing math assignments as a result.

The school psychologist recommended chunking her work, removal of unnecessary items from work area before beginning work, and having the teacher implement the "think, pair, share" strategy to help her with group work. Her other recommendations are things we're already doing and plan to continue: lunch groups with the school counselor, after school clubs, Girl Scouts. 

Thanks in advance for any advice you all have.

[auntie]

I have somewhere to be, I will try to circle around to this by late tomorrow morning.

We wrote DS's first real IEP in 4th, too.

[funchicken]

Thanks, auntie,

[auntie]

Apr 25, 2018 12:46:27 GMT -5 funchicken said:

DD1 is in 4th grade, and she just qualified for services after receiving an ASD diagnosis two weeks ago. She is best described as a nuance-challenged social learner according to MGW. She tests at above the 97th %tile in reading and writing, and has average math skills.

The anxiety around math is likely driven by a perfectionist streak and rigidity common to bright kids with ASD. That is likely a function of very black & white thinking- smart = good/ average = bad. Best to address this for a lot of reasons.

Firstly check yourself. I keep reading about her glowing RELA scores; make sure you aren't a part of the problem by using her strength in that area as a kind of karmic compensation for the areas where she doesn't do so well. We also recognized multiple intelligences- the kid who can create phenomenal art, the athletic kid who can get her body to do incredible things, the emotionally gifted kid who is poised and makes others feel good.

DS's psych would warn not to put too much stock in good grades or percentiles for 2 reasons. One, they could slip. There could come a time when those who struggled to learn to read get their shit together academically and blow past her which will cause a crisis of confidence if she defines herself as "better than". And even if she does remain academically top of the heap, at some point there is always a "bigger bastard" as DH puts it. No matter how good you are at something, as you move along in the world you will someday meet a wizard. 


Because of the large discrepancy between DD's reading abilities and her math abilities, math causes her a significant amount of anxiety.


This makes sense. All people tend to gravitate to subjects they find easy, kids with ASD especially. The math is likely stressful because she has to work at it.

It might be useful for you to look into NVLD. This is more of a learning profile than disability, btw, so the school won't likely get excited about it. But you might learn strategies that could help, plus there are certain soft skills impacted that could create issues later. It is seen pretty often with kids on the higher end of the spectrum and a little more often in girls. In fact, there used to be a thought that boys got diagnosed with Aspergers and their sisters with NVLD.


www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/nld.htm


She has difficulty with perspective-taking, non-verbal communication, working in groups, and spends a lot of time doodling during class.  


The first 3 should, IMO, be at the heart of her IEP. The advice I was given was to look at where your kid will be in 3-5 years and consider the skills she will need to thrive there. Five years puts her in high school with lab partners in science and team projects elsewhere in preparation for college and the collaborative workplace. 

Of these, perspective taking- knowing others might feel differently, that their feelings are valid, to be respected and being able to figure out with some accuracy what those feelings are- is most critical. Without this, she won't be able to easily work with others.

MGW does a lot of work on these issues in both TAYTAM which is a great option at this age. 

Why, specifically, is group work a struggle? Is she a perfectionist who doesn't want to be paired with kids who aren't good students either because of IQ or attitude? Is she able to acknowledge that other kids might have a good idea and work toward expanding on it or is she the type who tries to take over because in her B&W world her ideas are the best? Or is it that after pairs are formed she's left with another student who is challenging to work with because of their own issues? 

We received notice that our IEP meeting will be in two weeks. The special education teacher called me this morning and asked me what I want her IEP goals to be.

Well, that's different. A more seasoned parent could put that offer to good use.


I wasn't prepared for the question, and I kinda have no idea what I'm doing.

I would suggest getting up to speed. Emotions to Advocacy would be a good read between now and then. I would also suggest Parenting Your Aspergers Child for a broad view of the sort of skills you want to address- resilience, flexibility, etc. so you can understand how these play out in the classroom and later the workplace.


I asked the special education teacher to talk to the SLP because the SLP knows DD and has observed her in small group situations.

A good idea, but be aware that nobody has your kid's best interests at heart like you do. It's a rare professional who sees your child's potential the way you might- for good or bad. I can name a handful in 13 years- DS's reading teacher at Lewis, his elementary resource teacher, his 7th grade IEP custodian and his high school writing teacher. The bottom line is that only 15% of adults with Aspergers have full time employment. Even when you look at those with graduate and professional degrees things aren't great. Educators know this and may not have as high a bar as you do. For them doing "great" may come with the unspoken "for a kid with ASD". Keep an eye out. 


I think incorporating movement and drawing breaks into DD's day would hopefully help with the all day doodling.

Movement breaks are a pretty generic accommodation. How much movement is she getting now? Is there recess? Moving to specials and lunch daily? Are they seated for all their work or are they moving at stations? Who is responsible for recognizing and OKing the movement break? Is DD able to self identify a need for movement and not abuse the option to, say, avoid math? If so a "get out of jail free card" might be appropriate. DS had one in high school as part of a OSFA IEP; I'm not sure he ever exercised the option but liked having it if he might need it. It would have been a godsend in middle, but the school preferred he go to the nurse instead if needed. 

Drawing is a soothing activity for her and since it's not disruptive or stigmatizing, I think it's okay for her to do it, but I don't want it to interfere with things she needs to be learning. 


IMO, doodling is kind of like a figit. So long as she is participating and learning, I don't see why it's even a thing. If she's completed a seat assignment or is listening to a lecture, I think it's all good. We had doodling included in DS's IEP in high school only because his science teacher felt it disrespectful- we went in to talk with him and he was pretty understanding so long as DS kept it G-rated. I have a friend whose son has a language based LD who uses a kind of note-taking that is based on drawing that is working really well for him. 

I would like DD to have help working on her small group skills. They asked me if I wanted her to have a weekly pull-out for social skills, but that's hugely dependent on how that would be structured. If the pull-out is with a small group of girls who have similar social deficits to DD's, then I could see it being helpful, but I'm also worried about the disruption of her being pulled out of class. She was pulled out a bunch of times this quarter for all of the evaluations, and she ended up with 5 missing math assignments as a result.

So, this fantasy of similarly minded girls? Probably not going to happen. DS's middle school SLP was unable to put together a social skills group for girls in a building with 800 kids- there just aren't as many girls with ASD as there are boys. She had one girl. And while it would be terrific if she could get gender specific girl culture instruction, she also needs the more general TAYTAM kind of social thinking. 

In your situation, I would look to a summer social skills camp based on MGW to meet this need. You might find girls there. 

You can ask that she not be pulled for social skills around her math class since it would like be weekly or 2X weekly. 

The school psychologist recommended chunking her work, removal of unnecessary items from work area before beginning work, and having the teacher implement the "think, pair, share" strategy to help her with group work.


That sounds pretty generic as well. Like they kind of don't know what to do with her. Why would they chunk the work of a kid who is performing in the 97th %tile? What's the deal with clearing her work space? Does she also have ADHD and a tendency to be distracted by stuff? Is this about addressing the doodling?


It's really hard to write IEP goals for such things. The trick is to think about the skills and behaviors she needs to master to be a part of her classroom and thrive there. Then you need to think about what intervention (rather than accommodation) will teach those skills. Then you have to where and when and how often those skills are taught. Is the SLP doing the social thinking? Once a week or twice? Is it small group in her office or does she push the service into the lunch room, classroom or recess? This is critical, because once you have a handle on what- exactly- you want, you can write the IEP goals. IEP goals have to me quantitatively measurable. "DD will offer suggestions to the group on 4 out of 5 opportunities". 


Her other recommendations are things we're already doing and plan to continue: lunch groups with the school counselor, after school clubs, Girl Scouts. 

What's up with lunch? I've seen these go well when it's an SLP working with a mixed group of NT and ASD kids. But when it's just a break with a nice lady away from the stress of the cafeteria, she might not take much away. Most kids with ASD do pretty well interacting with indulgent adults vs same aged peers.


Clubs and scouts would be my suggestion too. She coming into an age when similar interests drive friendships. Supporting that is great. I would probably look into camp as well. Will she be doing GS camp? 

Thanks in advance for any advice you all have.


One thing that was really useful to us was that DS's psychologist, who was very familiar with our district, observed DS in school and helped us with IEP goals that would best prepare him going forward. That man could see things going on in a classroom that completely escaped me. 

[funchicken]

Apr 26, 2018 6:54:58 GMT -5 auntie said:

Apr 25, 2018 12:46:27 GMT -5 funchicken said:

DD1 is in 4th grade, and she just qualified for services after receiving an ASD diagnosis two weeks ago. She is best described as a nuance-challenged social learner according to MGW. She tests at above the 97th %tile in reading and writing, and has average math skills.

The anxiety around math is likely driven by a perfectionist streak and rigidity common to bright kids with ASD. That is likely a function of very black & white thinking- smart = good/ average = bad. Best to address this for a lot of reasons.

Firstly check yourself. I keep reading about her glowing RELA scores; make sure you aren't a part of the problem by using her strength in that area as a kind of karmic compensation for the areas where she doesn't do so well. We also recognized multiple intelligences- the kid who can create phenomenal art, the athletic kid who can get her body to do incredible things, the emotionally gifted kid who is poised and makes others feel good.

That's good advice, thank you. We talk to her about different people having strengths in different areas, and we work on math every day.

DS's psych would warn not to put too much stock in good grades or percentiles for 2 reasons. One, they could slip. There could come a time when those who struggled to learn to read get their shit together academically and blow past her which will cause a crisis of confidence if she defines herself as "better than". And even if she does remain academically top of the heap, at some point there is always a "bigger bastard" as DH puts it. No matter how good you are at something, as you move along in the world you will someday meet a wizard. 

I do remind her that no matter how good she is at something there will always be someone out there who is better. I really try to get her to understand that it's important to value yourself and not base your happiness on what other people think of you. I'm not concerned about the grades, but I see gaps in skills that I know she's capable of doing, but she probably needs some things taught to her in different ways or needs more repetition to learn them. 

Because of the large discrepancy between DD's reading abilities and her math abilities, math causes her a significant amount of anxiety.


This makes sense. All people tend to gravitate to subjects they find easy, kids with ASD especially. The math is likely stressful because she has to work at it.

It might be useful for you to look into NVLD. This is more of a learning profile than disability, btw, so the school won't likely get excited about it. But you might learn strategies that could help, plus there are certain soft skills impacted that could create issues later. It is seen pretty often with kids on the higher end of the spectrum and a little more often in girls. In fact, there used to be a thought that boys got diagnosed with Aspergers and their sisters with NVLD.


www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/nld.htm


She has difficulty with perspective-taking, non-verbal communication, working in groups, and spends a lot of time doodling during class.  


The first 3 should, IMO, be at the heart of her IEP. The advice I was given was to look at where your kid will be in 3-5 years and consider the skills she will need to thrive there. Five years puts her in high school with lab partners in science and team projects elsewhere in preparation for college and the collaborative workplace. That makes sense. 

Of these, perspective taking- knowing others might feel differently, that their feelings are valid, to be respected and being able to figure out with some accuracy what those feelings are- is most critical. Without this, she won't be able to easily work with others.

MGW does a lot of work on these issues in both TAYTAM which is a great option at this age. 

Why, specifically, is group work a struggle? Is she a perfectionist who doesn't want to be paired with kids who aren't good students either because of IQ or attitude? Is she able to acknowledge that other kids might have a good idea and work toward expanding on it or is she the type who tries to take over because in her B&W world her ideas are the best? Or is it that after pairs are formed she's left with another student who is challenging to work with because of their own issues? At the time of the psychologists observation, the teacher had them choose their own partners. This is always tough for her because the more with-it kids pair up right away, and she usually needs help finding someone. Sometimes she ends up with someone undesirable, sometimes it's someone she likes. I suspect that her first struggle is in finding a partner and her second struggle is in understanding what the teacher's expectations for the task are. If she knows what she's supposed to do she'll talk about the topic appropriately but stare at the floor the whole time. I think she has trouble starting a conversation because of difficulties with perspective-taking. When I observe her doing group work with the girl scouts she does well with listening to other people's ideas and making suggestions. If anything, she tends to defer to the pushier girls. 

We received notice that our IEP meeting will be in two weeks. The special education teacher called me this morning and asked me what I want her IEP goals to be.

Well, that's different. A more seasoned parent could put that offer to good use.


I wasn't prepared for the question, and I kinda have no idea what I'm doing.

I would suggest getting up to speed. Emotions to Advocacy would be a good read between now and then. I would also suggest Parenting Your Aspergers Child for a broad view of the sort of skills you want to address- resilience, flexibility, etc. so you can understand how these play out in the classroom and later the workplace.


I asked the special education teacher to talk to the SLP because the SLP knows DD and has observed her in small group situations.

A good idea, but be aware that nobody has your kid's best interests at heart like you do. It's a rare professional who sees your child's potential the way you might- for good or bad. I can name a handful in 13 years- DS's reading teacher at Lewis, his elementary resource teacher, his 7th grade IEP custodian and his high school writing teacher. The bottom line is that only 15% of adults with Aspergers have full time employment. Even when you look at those with graduate and professional degrees things aren't great. Educators know this and may not have as high a bar as you do. For them doing "great" may come with the unspoken "for a kid with ASD". Keep an eye out. 
I will, thanks.

I think incorporating movement and drawing breaks into DD's day would hopefully help with the all day doodling.

Movement breaks are a pretty generic accommodation. How much movement is she getting now? Is there recess? Moving to specials and lunch daily? Are they seated for all their work or are they moving at stations? Who is responsible for recognizing and OKing the movement break? Is DD able to self identify a need for movement and not abuse the option to, say, avoid math? If so a "get out of jail free card" might be appropriate. DS had one in high school as part of a OSFA IEP; I'm not sure he ever exercised the option but liked having it if he might need it. It would have been a godsend in middle, but the school preferred he go to the nurse instead if needed. 

Drawing is a soothing activity for her and since it's not disruptive or stigmatizing, I think it's okay for her to do it, but I don't want it to interfere with things she needs to be learning. 


IMO, doodling is kind of like a figit. So long as she is participating and learning, I don't see why it's even a thing. If she's completed a seat assignment or is listening to a lecture, I think it's all good. We had doodling included in DS's IEP in high school only because his science teacher felt it disrespectful- we went in to talk with him and he was pretty understanding so long as DS kept it G-rated. I have a friend whose son has a language based LD who uses a kind of note-taking that is based on drawing that is working really well for him. One problem that has cropped up is the boy sitting next to her has been making drawing requests, and she feels uncomfortable saying no because she's had problems with him in the past. I just found out about this, so I haven't mentioned it to the teacher yet.

I would like DD to have help working on her small group skills. They asked me if I wanted her to have a weekly pull-out for social skills, but that's hugely dependent on how that would be structured. If the pull-out is with a small group of girls who have similar social deficits to DD's, then I could see it being helpful, but I'm also worried about the disruption of her being pulled out of class. She was pulled out a bunch of times this quarter for all of the evaluations, and she ended up with 5 missing math assignments as a result.

So, this fantasy of similarly minded girls? Probably not going to happen. DS's middle school SLP was unable to put together a social skills group for girls in a building with 800 kids- there just aren't as many girls with ASD as there are boys. She had one girl. And while it would be terrific if she could get gender specific girl culture instruction, she also needs the more general TAYTAM kind of social thinking. Okay, I plan to talk to the SLP about what a social skills pull-out would look like. She is on the list of people who will be at the meeting, so I'm assuming it would be with her.

In your situation, I would look to a summer social skills camp based on MGW to meet this need. You might find girls there. 

You can ask that she not be pulled for social skills around her math class since it would like be weekly or 2X weekly. 

The school psychologist recommended chunking her work, removal of unnecessary items from work area before beginning work, and having the teacher implement the "think, pair, share" strategy to help her with group work.


That sounds pretty generic as well. Like they kind of don't know what to do with her. Yep, I kinda think that's true. Why would they chunk the work of a kid who is performing in the 97th %tile? She's not performing at the 97%tile in class. On paper her grades look okay, but when I go through her work when it gets sent home she'll have misunderstood  things that I know she can do if they're explained to her in a way that makes sense to her. Also, the kids are expected to create study notebooks for each subject. They're supposed to bring the notebooks home to study for tests. DD's notebooks are a hot mess. They're useless as study guides, so if that's an expectation, she needs support in learning how to organize her study notes. 

What's the deal with clearing her work space? Does she also have ADHD and a tendency to be distracted by stuff? Is this about addressing the doodling? I don't know. DD is fidgety and clumsy. Maybe she's dropping paper clips and annoying the teacher.


It's really hard to write IEP goals for such things. The trick is to think about the skills and behaviors she needs to master to be a part of her classroom and thrive there. Then you need to think about what intervention (rather than accommodation) will teach those skills. Then you have to where and when and how often those skills are taught. Is the SLP doing the social thinking? Once a week or twice? Is it small group in her office or does she push the service into the lunch room, classroom or recess? This is critical, because once you have a handle on what- exactly- you want, you can write the IEP goals. IEP goals have to me quantitatively measurable. "DD will offer suggestions to the group on 4 out of 5 opportunities". These are really helpful things to think about. Thank you.


Her other recommendations are things we're already doing and plan to continue: lunch groups with the school counselor, after school clubs, Girl Scouts. 

What's up with lunch? I've seen these go well when it's an SLP working with a mixed group of NT and ASD kids. This is exactly what it is. I think it was a group of six girls, 2 NT and 4 with social deficits. Each girl had a goal they were working on. They talked about understanding group dynamics: body in the group, expected vs. unexpected behavior. The school psychologist helped the school counselor facilitate.

But when it's just a break with a nice lady away from the stress of the cafeteria, she might not take much away. Most kids with ASD do pretty well interacting with indulgent adults vs same aged peers. This is where DD is an anomaly. She is extremely uncomfortable around other adults. She is cooperative and compliant, but she doesn't smile or try to chat. She answers questions if asked, but she maintains a pretty flat affect and doesn't try to engage them in conversation.

Clubs and scouts would be my suggestion too. She coming into an age when similar interests drive friendships. Supporting that is great. I would probably look into camp as well. Will she be doing GS camp? She's been doing a GS day camp for the past 4 summers. She loves it. She wants to try out for the swim team this summer, so if she makes the team that will be a big commitment. She'll be around a lot of peers there. 

Thanks in advance for any advice you all have.


One thing that was really useful to us was that DS's psychologist, who was very familiar with our district, observed DS in school and helped us with IEP goals that would best prepare him going forward. That man could see things going on in a classroom that completely escaped me. I had coffee with my friend yesterday whose DD was diagnosed at a similar age. She gave me contact info for their behavioral therapist who did classroom observations and attended IEP meetings with them. I'm going to reach out to her. Thank you so much for the advice.