Aug. Book club: Before We Were Yours

[aurora]

Are we doing a discussion today? Because I finally have read the book!

I guess I should see if I can find some question prompts.

[aurora]

Here are a whole slough of questions. Definitely pick the ones you want and ignore the rest!

1. Did you research the true history of the Tennessee Children’s Home Society and Georgia Tann before, during, or after you read Before We Were Yours?

2. In what ways do you think the attitudes toward adoption and foster care have changed in this country?

3. How did the abuse and poor treatment at the home impact the story? If the children had been treated well, would it have made a difference that they’d been taken from their parents?

4. Do the alternating storylines between the Foss kids in the past and Avery Stafford’s story in the present make the book stronger for you? Why or why not? Was there one storyline that most appealed to you?

5. Before We Were Yours touches on several themes, including the bonds of family, the power of family secrets, the way the past influences the present, political corruption, the resiliency of children, dementia and elder care, etc. Was there one theme that you were particularly drawn to? Why?

6. How was Georgia Tann able to get away with everything she did? Do you think someone in that position today could so easily convince others to go along with her plans?

7. Do you think the story over-romanticizes the bond between sisters? Do you think Before We Were Yours would be as strong a story if told from the perspective of boys? Why?

8. At times, Avery comes across as privileged and oblivious. In what ways does Avery’s perspective change as she learns more about her family’s past?

9. How does Avery’s relationship with her family influence her relationship with Trent? Do you think Trent is better suited to Avery than Elliot was? Do you think they will have a happy ending?

10. How did you feel about Queenie and Briny? Did you feel sympathy, anger, or a mix of emotions? Were they responsible for what happened to their children, or were they also victims?

11. Why do you think the Seviers adopted Rill and Fern? Do you think they knew what was going on with Miss Tann? Are they accomplices to the corruption and abuse?

12. Why do you think Rill went back to her adopted family? Did you agree with her choice? Were you happy with the way her story turned out?

13. Why do you think the sisters kept their reunion a secret? Do you agree with their choice?

14. Were you disappointed that all of the siblings weren’t reunited? Do you think that had they been reunited, that would have weakened the realism of the story?

15. What do you imagine life would have been like if the Foss family had remained intact? In what ways would the children have been affected? What can you imagine as the best possible outcome for the Foss children?

16. Like many children in impoverished families, Rill is pushed into the role of being responsible for her younger siblings at a young age. How would her life have been different if she’d remained with her parents, but been an only child?

17. Which character in Before We Were Yours do you most identify with? Who do you admire most? Why?

18. Avery’s connection with her grandmother motivates her search for the truth. How would things have changed if their relationship had been different?

19. Rill and Fern seem to benefit in a number of ways by their adoption by the Seviers. Did the economic and educational advantages make for a better childhood? A better life?

20. Who would you recommend this book to? Does it remind you of any other books you have read?

From www.bookbub.com/blog/2018/07/30/before-we-were-yours-book-club-questions

[aurora]

I guess I'll keep having a conversation with myself.

I looked this book, although some of the elements were predictable. I did read it close to Little Fires Everywhere so the whole issue if parenting and adoption was front and center in my head.

I felt so terrible for Rill. She was failed by so many people. I can't even imagine the horror of being a young child, stolen from your parents, watching your siblings gradually stripped away from you. It's horrifying that that really happened.

I'm glad Avery grew up a bit and started to figure out what she wanted, not just what was expected of her. I could have done without the love conflict, though; honestly, it felt forced and beside the point to me.

[aurora]

7. Do you think the story over-romanticizes the bond between sisters? Do you think Before We Were Yours would be as strong a story if told from the perspective of boys? Why?


This one didn't even occur to me while reading. Hmmm. I do think our culture tends to allow women more freedom to express ourselves about our relationships, but looking for example at my dad and his brother, who are very close, I can imagine they would have gone through similar trauma if separated and would always have searched for each other. So yes, I guess I think the story could have been as strong, but probably would have been written differently.

[ufcasey]

Total fail on my part, I completely forgot it was already the last Wednesday of the month. It's been a little while since I read this, but here are my random thoughts:

- The terrible cajun accent! It's a pet peeve of mine to read accents (exception: I'm a sucker for Scottish historical romance novels). So I seriously would have quit this book had it continued on for the whole book. I just can't handle that.

- Avery was such a boring character. I honestly could have done without her entirely.

- Rill slowly losing her siblings broke my heart. I was in disbelief though about her sister that was murdered. It felt surreal and I was honestly waiting for her to show back up.

- I was horrified to learn this was based on real events. There are sick sick people in this world.

[travella]

I gave this book 3*. I had never heard of Georgia Tann or her orphanage so I was intrigued by Rill's story and the orphanage, but I didn't care for Avery's story. I would have enjoyed the book so much more of it had left Avery all together. I also found the end rushed in comparison to the pace of the rest of the book.

Did you research the true history of the Tennessee Children’s Home Society and Georgia Tann before, during, or after you read Before We Were Yours?

I had never heard of Georgia Tann or the orphanage so I had to look up more information about them while reading. I would love to find another book about this incident in history. Georgia sounds like a horrible woman. There is speculation that she could have been a mass murderer- killing kids who she couldn't adopt out. My heart goes out to the children that ended up in her care.

In what ways do you think the attitudes toward adoption and foster care have changed in this country?

I think attitudes about adoption have changed for the better, but I think there are still major steps that need to be taken to protect the kids within the system. Kids are still falling through the cracks.

Do the alternating storylines between the Foss kids in the past and Avery Stafford’s story in the present make the book stronger for you? Why or why not? Was there one storyline that most appealed to you?

No, the alternating stories made the story weaker for me. Avery's story was a throw away for me. I would have liked the story so much more without her story and had it focused on Rill.

How was Georgia Tann able to get away with everything she did? Do you think someone in that position today could so easily convince others to go along with her plans?

I think she got away with her scheme because of the reputation of the orphanage, her money, her connections to the right people in power, and the ignorance/lack of power of her victims. I don't think it would be as easy to get away with what she did today because of how fast information travels. However, I do think that something like this could happen today, but is more criminal in nature- sex trafficking rings for example.

Do you think the story over-romanticizes the bond between sisters? Do you think Before We Were Yours would be as strong a story if told from the perspective of boys? Why?

No, I never really thought about there being a close bond between the sisters as much as the oldest child trying to keep her family together. I don't think it would have been any different had the oldest been a boy. I do think that growing up isolated on the boat probably made them closer to each other than most families, but I don't think the connection would have been as strong had all the children been younger. Rill had said numerous times that the young children were forgetting their biological family and she fought hard for them not to forget.

10. How did you feel about Queenie and Briny? Did you feel sympathy, anger, or a mix of emotions? Were they responsible for what happened to their children, or were they also victims?

I felt sorry for Queenie and maybe a little for Briny. You could tell that they loved their kids and that they were trying to provide for them. However, Briny not showing up to look for his children even after the family friend found them at the orphanage bothered me. Maybe that was when Queenie died, but that still bothered me that he wasn't there when his children needed him.

Why do you think Rill went back to her adopted family? Did you agree with her choice? Were you happy with the way her story turned out?

I think Rill went back to the adopted family because her biological family was gone. Her mother was dead and her father was so far into the bottle that he nearly killed them. He couldn't take care of them. She knew that if she stayed they would have ended up back in an orphanage and she was not going to let that happen to her or her sister.

[abs]

This book started out slow for me but after putting it down and coming back to it I ended up really enjoying it! Count me as another that didn't really care for Avery but I couldn't read Rill's story fast enough. I had never heard of Georgia Tann before. What a horrible person!

In a way I think Georgia Tann could still get away with some of it today. Money and reputation can get you a lot. I like to think that in 2018 it couldn't happen but look at current leadership. We haven't exactly proven that we are better now.

I do think adoption/foster care have gotten better and our attitudes toward it have definitely improved. Still a long way to go to make sure kids are getting what they need and aren't suffering or falling through the cracks though.

[rainbowchip]

I wasn't looking forward to this book for some reason but I ended up really enjoying it.

3. How did the abuse and poor treatment at the home impact the story? If the children had been treated well, would it have made a difference that they’d been taken from their parents?

I think we have seen, with what is going on at the southern border, that how well kids are treated doesn't mean anything if they are taken and kept from their families.

4. Do the alternating storylines between the Foss kids in the past and Avery Stafford’s story in the present make the book stronger for you? Why or why not? Was there one storyline that most appealed to you?

As I was reading, I would get upset when the narrator changed because I was so into the story. But then I would strat reading the next chapter and get back into that story.

9. How does Avery’s relationship with her family influence her relationship with Trent? Do you think Trent is better suited to Avery than Elliot was? Do you think they will have a happy ending?

I absolutely understand the feeling of comfort in settling down with someone who you have been with for a long time and the relationship sort of just flows along even if it isn't really what is in the best interest of both parties.
I'm glad that she found Trent and they seem more suited. I do hope they pursue that relationship.

10. How did you feel about Queenie and Briny? Did you feel sympathy, anger, or a mix of emotions? Were they responsible for what happened to their children, or were they also victims?

I was going to say they absolutely weren't responsible for what happened to their children but then we don't know what happened at the hospital. While I was reading, I assumed that they got tricked into signing over the kids so it definitely wasn't their fault.
But Briny needed to get his shit together when the girls came back and he didn't so I do blame him for that.

11. Why do you think the Seviers adopted Rill and Fern? Do you think they knew what was going on with Miss Tann? Are they accomplices to the corruption and abuse?

Mrs. Sevier had an attachment to Fern and she wanted her. I would guess that they knew what Mrs. Tann was doing wasn't completely on the up and up but they probably never imagined the kidnapping and abuse.

12. Why do you think Rill went back to her adopted family? Did you agree with her choice? Were you happy with the way her story turned out?

I don't think she had much other choice. She could either be homeless and parentless or return to a house where they were treated quite well. Kind of a no brainer.

14. Were you disappointed that all of the siblings weren’t reunited? Do you think that had they been reunited, that would have weakened the realism of the story?

I would have liked to have known what happened to Camellia and Judy's twin.

20. Who would you recommend this book to? Does it remind you of any other books you have read?

When I finished this book I immediately thought I would recommend it to my mom.

[aurora]

Re. the alternating storylines, although I liked Rill a lot more than Avery, I do think it emphasized how early life forced Rill to grow up, whereas Avery didn't seem mature yet (e.g. going along with what her parents wanted for her).

[msmerymac]

I was not really a fan of this book.

I could have done without the Avery storyline entirely. A well-written story about the Tennessee Children's Home would have been more interesting. I feel like the story was used as a way to create a heart-wrenching background for a novel in which not much else is really relevant. I kind of hate when authors or television/movie writers do that. Like capitalizing off a true story is a shortcut to pluck a reader/viewer's heartstrings without doing the work themselves. She also took basically EVERYTHING the Tenessee Children's Home was ever accused of and put it all into one story, taking place over maybe a 3 month period. Stories that switch between time periods can be good and fun (I love Susanna Kearsley, for example), but I felt that this author, in particular, also used it as a crutch to build fake suspense by creating mini-cliffhangers at the end of chapters. Avery's story just seemed kind of boring and not well-written.

Many of the characters didn't seem very well developed to me. Briny - you could have done a lot more with that character. Especially if she had started earlier and gave us more exposition about the family. Even from the limited perspective of children, I think more about the family dynamics and relationship between Briny and his children could have been conveyed. Or Arney - she could have had a much richer story, but I felt like it was hastily sketched, she was introduced late in the book, and her character was kind of unnecessary when compared with other things that could have made the book better.

I feel like I had really high expectations since the waitlist was so long and it got great reviews, but maybe that's my own fault. I thought it would read like a literary historical fiction and it ended up being more of a beach read for me, but with a fairly agonizing origin story, which, like I said, seemed kind of like a cop-out.

[rainbowchip]

I'm surprised that nobody liked the Avery story. I really liked the suspense of Avery figuring out who May was and how Judy tied in.

[rootbeerfloat]

The only part of Avery's story I liked was the romance, but I didn't need it to take up more pages. There was already too much about her playing with her nephews and driving around.

I would've liked more about the reunion(s). What was it like when they found each other? How did they decide to and manage to keep such a big secret from their children?

I felt bad for all the parents who lost their kids, even though Briny became much less sympathetic when the kids returned.

I have mixed feelings about the Seviers. They were part of the problem and benefited from a terrible situation. I kept expecting something bad to happen (like that they would be abusive), even though you knew that Rill made it successfully to adulthood. I liked how Rill discovered her musical talent there.

The emphasis on curly, blonde children annoyed me, too. Poor black sheep Camelia.

[krystee]

I had read a tiny bit about Georgia Tan before, but read more about it after reading this book. In thinking about this from a modern-day perspective, this book made me wonder how many women reading this book were totally horrified by this blonde family being ripped apart, but just fine with children being stripped away from their families at the border now.

Why didn't they leave the children they didn't want with their families instead of taking them and killing them?!? That was absolutely heart-wrenching and crazy how recently things like this took place. Less than 70 years ago!! Within some of our parents' and all of our grandparents' lifetimes!

Sorry, I am taking more about the issues than the book because I read it over six months ago, and I'm having trouble remembering it. But I really liked it, and I have enjoyed a few of her books since, including The Prayer Box.

[ufcasey]

Aug 30, 2018 19:46:17 GMT -5 krystee said:

I had read a tiny bit about Georgia Tan before, but read more about it after reading this book. In thinking about this from a modern-day perspective, this book made me wonder how many women reading this book were totally horrified by this blonde family being ripped apart, but just fine with children being stripped away from their families at the border now.

Why didn't they leave the children they didn't want with their families instead of taking them and killing them?!? That was absolutely heart-wrenching and crazy how recently things like this took place. Less than 70 years ago!! Within some of our parents' and all of our grandparents' lifetimes!

Sorry, I am taking more about the issues than the book because I read it over six months ago, and I'm having trouble remembering it. But I really liked it, and I have enjoyed a few of her books since, including The Prayer Box.

SO. TRUE.

[ufcasey]

Tagging other people who might have read this book (forgot to do this earlier!):
jinkies, spearmintleaf, mrspez07, expectantsteelerfan, secretlyevil, gummybear, ktbug73, wesleycrusher, MrsAxilla, traveltheworld, bdubs419, kelliebeans104, pinotgrig

[secretlyevil]

This book gave me the whole gamut of feels. Seriously all the feels. That’s all I can say about it now. I’ll come back tomorrow and answer questions. This book was really good. I think audio probably gave it another level.

[gummybear]

Aug 30, 2018 16:52:27 GMT -5 rootbeerfloat said:

I have mixed feelings about the Seviers. They were part of the problem and benefited from a terrible situation. I kept expecting something bad to happen (like that they would be abusive), even though you knew that Rill made it successfully to adulthood. I liked how Rill discovered her musical talent there.

The emphasis on curly, blonde children annoyed me, too. Poor black sheep Camelia.

I was mixed too - I was expecting the husband to take an inappropriate interest in Rill and for her to be abused. Sad that I am conditioned to expect that. I was relieved that was not the case. I had mixed feelings on them too. Having been someone who had TTTC and experiencing multiple losses myself, I had empathy for their situation. But at the same time, it was just a glaring example of what privilege and money could afford you a the expense of those who have less. 

I did really like this book, at least the historical part of the Tennessee Children’s Home Society and Georgia Tann. I did not care for Avery's story line at all and actually found myself skimming through it a lot of the time. I personally felt that it took away from the weight of the other story line. 

I have a family member who is very involved in the anti-adoption movement. I also know many, many people who have had wonderful adoption stories and I personally think it is a true gift. Regardless of my personal feelings, I have listened to my family member and her case against private adoption, and I do see some parallels in this story and what she believes occurs in modern day. While the atrocities might not exist, wealth (both having it and not having it) and the idea "the ideal child" is still a driving force. 

[secretlyevil]

Answering a few of the questions from above. 


How did the abuse and poor treatment at the home impact the story? If the children had been treated well, would it have made a difference that they’d been taken from their parents?

No, the fact that children were stolen from families is abhorrent.


Do the alternating story lines between the Foss kids in the past and Avery Stafford’s story in the present make the book stronger for you? Why or why not? Was there one story line that most appealed to you?

I don't think it made it stronger, it didn't detract from the story either. I enjoyed the back and forth; the audio had two distinct voices which I think helped. The Foss kids story line invoked a stronger emotional response obviously.

Do you think the story over-romanticizes the bond between sisters? Do you think Before We Were Yours would be as strong a story if told from the perspective of boys? Why?

I don't think it did, if they were all boys, it would still be a strong story but different.


How did you feel about Queenie and Briny? Did you feel sympathy, anger, or a mix of emotions? Were they responsible for what happened to their children, or were they also victims?

They were victims. Briny...though...I have mixed feelings about him.


Why do you think the Seviers adopted Rill and Fern? Do you think they knew what was going on with Miss Tann? Are they accomplices to the corruption and abuse?

Darren knew something...Victoria I'm not so sure she was capable of fully comprehending what was going around on her. They were absolutely accomplices. 


 Why do you think Rill went back to her adopted family? Did you agree with her choice? Were you happy with the way her story turned out?

Rill made a very grown up choice for a little girl in a situation no one should ever be in.


Who would you recommend this book to? Does it remind you of any other books you have read?

I do recommend this book. I think it is one of the best books I have read this year. 

---

 

[secretlyevil]

Aug 30, 2018 19:46:17 GMT -5 krystee said:

I had read a tiny bit about Georgia Tan before, but read more about it after reading this book. In thinking about this from a modern-day perspective, this book made me wonder how many women reading this book were totally horrified by this blonde family being ripped apart, but just fine with children being stripped away from their families at the border now.

Yeah, the parallels between the story and current events were eerie.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
-philosopher George Santayana

This saying seems to run through my mind daily ever since the election.

[aurora]

Aug 30, 2018 16:52:27 GMT -5 rootbeerfloat said:

The only part of Avery's story I liked was the romance, but I didn't need it to take up more pages. There was already too much about her playing with her nephews and driving around.

I would've liked more about the reunion(s). What was it like when they found each other? How did they decide to and manage to keep such a big secret from their children?

I felt bad for all the parents who lost their kids, even though Briny became much less sympathetic when the kids returned.

I have mixed feelings about the Seviers. They were part of the problem and benefited from a terrible situation. I kept expecting something bad to happen (like that they would be abusive), even though you knew that Rill made it successfully to adulthood. I liked how Rill discovered her musical talent there.

The emphasis on curly, blonde children annoyed me, too. Poor black sheep Camelia.

That's funny - I thought the romance part of Avery's story was the worst. It felt very cliche to me. I did like her relationship with her Grandma and thinking about her career.

I agree with the rest of your remarks, though! It's a good point about the Seviers being part of the problem. I really wonder how much they knew or how hard they had to work to remain in ignorance.

[aurora]

Aug 31, 2018 8:48:13 GMT -5 gummybear said:

Aug 30, 2018 16:52:27 GMT -5 rootbeerfloat said:

I have mixed feelings about the Seviers. They were part of the problem and benefited from a terrible situation. I kept expecting something bad to happen (like that they would be abusive), even though you knew that Rill made it successfully to adulthood. I liked how Rill discovered her musical talent there.

The emphasis on curly, blonde children annoyed me, too. Poor black sheep Camelia.

I was mixed too - I was expecting the husband to take an inappropriate interest in Rill and for her to be abused. Sad that I am conditioned to expect that. I was relieved that was not the case. I had mixed feelings on them too. Having been someone who had TTTC and experiencing multiple losses myself, I had empathy for their situation. But at the same time, it was just a glaring example of what privilege and money could afford you a the expense of those who have less. 

I did really like this book, at least the historical part of the Tennessee Children’s Home Society and Georgia Tann. I did not care for Avery's story line at all and actually found myself skimming through it a lot of the time. I personally felt that it took away from the weight of the other story line. 

I have a family member who is very involved in the anti-adoption movement. I also know many, many people who have had wonderful adoption stories and I personally think it is a true gift. Regardless of my personal feelings, I have listened to my family member and her case against private adoption, and I do see some parallels in this story and what she believes occurs in modern day. While the atrocities might not exist, wealth (both having it and not having it) and the idea "the ideal child" is still a driving force. 

This is interesting; I guess I didn't realize there is an anti-adoption movement.

My mother worked for an adoption agency way back when I was a kid, doing counseling for birth parents, adoptive parents, and adopted kids, and seems generally to have believed adoption was a good thing when done well. I will have to ask her what she knows about this.

I can definitely see that it's easy not to do well, though, especially when there are power differentials between birth and adoptive parents.

[aurora]

Aug 30, 2018 22:03:08 GMT -5 secretlyevil said:

This book gave me the whole gamut of feels. Seriously all the feels. That’s all I can say about it now. I’ll come back tomorrow and answer questions. This book was really good. I think audio probably gave it another level.

I did like the audiobook version, especially the different voices for Rill and Avery.

[aurora]

Also this question from the original list (that I posted, so I take responsibility) is really bugging me:

19. Rill and Fern seem to benefit in a number of ways by their adoption by the Seviers. Did the economic and educational advantages make for a better childhood? A better life?

*Of course* economic and educational advantages make for a better life, all else being equal. The question really needs to be "Did the econominc and educational advantages make up for being ripped away from loving parents and siblings and wondering for the rest of your life if your sister was murdered?"

[spedrunner]

Aug 30, 2018 11:57:52 GMT -5 rainbowchip said:

I'm surprised that nobody liked the Avery story. I really liked the suspense of Avery figuring out who May was and how Judy tied in.

I liked the Avery story too

[secretlyevil]

Aug 31, 2018 15:06:22 GMT -5 aurora said:

Aug 30, 2018 22:03:08 GMT -5 secretlyevil said:

This book gave me the whole gamut of feels. Seriously all the feels. That’s all I can say about it now. I’ll come back tomorrow and answer questions. This book was really good. I think audio probably gave it another level.

I did like the audiobook version, especially the different voices for Rill and Avery.

this is why we’re friends.

[secretlyevil]

Aug 31, 2018 19:01:09 GMT -5 spedrunner said:

Aug 30, 2018 11:57:52 GMT -5 rainbowchip said:

I'm surprised that nobody liked the Avery story. I really liked the suspense of Avery figuring out who May was and how Judy tied in.

I liked the Avery story too

I liked Avery's story.

[expectantsteelerfan]

I read this a while ago, and the parts that stayed with me the most were my own biased shock and recoil from the life the girls had on the boat with Queenie and Briny, compared then with the actual horror of life at the orphanage. I could see the beauty in the love of the family living their own way on the boat, but I could not relate to it at all, and it rankled me to be pulled in by their chaos. And I see my own privileged upbringing coloring my views on if Queenie and Briny deserve any blame for what happened to them. I want more info. on them, what led them to live their lives the way they did that led them to be powerless and uneducated enough to possibly make the mistake of knowingly signing away their rights to their children and thinking they could undo it later. There were clearly stories of children being stolen, but I did like that she left it unclear about what actually happened at the hospital. But people in poverty make impossible choices because they have to. And there are so many things to blame systematic poverty on, but I'm not quite prepared to say that Queenie and Briny had ZERO blame in their consequences, especially when you consider how Briny ended up. I'm not saying they deserved to have their children take, but only that they might have made decisions that led up to it.
But living in poverty is nothing compared to living with abuse.
I did some research after finishing the book and was doubly horrified.
Overall I was really impressed with this book, even the Avery storyline.

[minzy]

I actually liked this book a lot. The back and forth storylines took a page or two per time to adjust to, but that made it a pageturner for me. The atrocities these kids were subjected to horrified me, and I kept thinking “will no one be kind to these children!!?” However, I liked the kindness and protection the kids displayed towards each other - Rill saving a cookie for Camellia, Rill looking out for little Stevie/Travis, Silas and Arney trying to help, etc.

I agree that Avery’s storyline seemed a little cheesy, too convenient and predictable. Maybe because she’s been in the news this weekend, but Avery reminded me a little of Meghan McCain, in that she’s the ambitious blonde 30ish daughter of an ailing with cancer sitting US Senator, not from the northeast, with a still living grandmother.

I would have liked less on how Judy kept everything such a secret and more on the times she bonded with her sisters since she never lived with them as a child. I also wanted to know what happened to her twin. Despite this being about the ties between parents and children (and of course siblings to each other), I don’t find the parental ties to Briny that strong (especially since he abandoned the kids twice) and Avery didn’t seem to be very close with her mother, either.