Touching butts

[waverly]

DS, 7 almost 8, has been touching butts.  He has a history of not keeping his hands to himself since a baby really.  However, the butt touching started this summer.  I am not sure from where- a book or watching sports or whatever.

He was touching my butt for about a week, and then he started touching his counselors butts, so I took away his baseball game, and the book that I thought made him think to touch butts.  And he totally stopped for about a month, and now I have a report of him touching a girls butt at school.

Any advice for me on how to handle it?  Like I said him putting his hands on other kids has been a battle since the very beginning.  It seems to have been a sensory seeking thing, I think.  I usually used 123 magic for it, with OK results, but when he was younger he was often in time out for it for 2 times an evening and sometimes 3 times where he lost TV.  I feel like perhaps there are some impulse control issues, but I guess I just don't know when that cognitive leap happens and if he is late on it.  When does impulse control happen?  When do kids usually keep their hands to themselves?    

I have tried to taper down on time outs as he got older because I was thinking he was cognitively getting restraint, but I guess not. 

[waverly]

We settled it with a serious talk with both DH and I and loss of TV for a week.

I just don’t want him to keep doing it. We told him if he did it again the consequences would be very serious.

[auntie]

Remind me, does your son have any diagnoses beyond the issues with hearing?

This could be a concern. What does "touching butts" look like? Is it an extension of potty humor beloved by preschool aged kids? Is he poking ass because he thinks it's funny? Is it a swat as might be seen in the context of professional sports? Or is he leaning in for a handful?


I can't imagine how this could be seen in the context of sensory especially at this age. I'm not sure removing TV is an appropriate consequence for this behavior unless the content he watches is a trigger for the behavior. The talk is a good idea, especially if you stressed how creepy this behavior is considered by others and how they will feel about him as a result. But if he's compulsively impulsive, he may not be able to override his urge to do this in the moment because you told him not to.



The so called cognitive leap is more of a social emotional maturity thing. It's generally something that just happens around age 6/start of first grade for typically developing kids. This kind of immaturity is typically seen with ADHD. If you see other symptoms, you might consider an eval which could help you come up with a behavior modification plan to get his handsy-ness and impulsivity under control. Touching other kids annoys the crap out of them at this age and the girl butt thing could cause this to get really ugly. There is probably no sexual overtone to this, but that girl's parents may not see it that way.

[waverly]

No actual diagnosis besides the hearing loss.

It seems like the first 3 things you listed- sports related, potty humor, thinks it’s funny. No actual grabbing or squeezing.

But yes I am very concerned due to the age- almost 8. I feel he should know better. The fact he was doing it with several people. Doesn’t seem to understand the issue of why not to do it. Calls it an accident. The fact it seems now to be targeted towards women/ girls.

At what point do I say get an eval? If it happens again or now?

It has happened at home and then stopped, at camp withconsequence and stopped and now at school. So happened 3 times. Because he stops it I feel like he can control it. But then he does this. He also gets in trouble at aftercare for things I might consider to be impulsive or getting angry about silly things. Yelling at kids, throwing things, hands on kids.

I was tempted to pull him last year from aftercare.

[akafred]

It does sound like he has impulse control issues in other areas from what you posted. Remember that something like ADHD can cause about a 25-30% lag in maturity, and something like ASD can cause closer to 50%. So his “almost 8” could be closer to 5 in terms of impulse control. And it is certainly more noticeable and concerning because it is showing a widening gap. Kids usually gain impulse control around age 6. It’s not unusual for kids in kindergarten to still have trouble keeping their hands to themselves, but by first grade this is less common, and by second it is concerning.

I think I would seek more of an evaluation, if for nothing else, for self-preservation in case he does act out on another child and their parent overreacts. Then you have it documented that he has this issue and you sought help.

[akafred]

Also, just to the “he can control it because he stops” comment, sometimes this is true and sometimes it isn’t. Just like adults who can sometimes stay well-regulated and sometimes can’t (ever “lose it” and snap at or yell at your kids for something you were able to calmly address the day before?), kids have good days and bad. It’s not meant to excuse the behavior, but it’s just a reality with impulsivity. Trust me. Hoo boy! Mine knocked over a huge bookshelf last night in front of every teacher and every parent at the entire school, 5 minutes before the parent info night. It wasn’t intentional, but there was a book fair and she was reaching for one of the highest up books in the rack which was on a table on the back side of the shelf unit, instead of asking me or someone to get it for her, and she pushed on the rack and knocked the entire shelf over. Thank God there were no kids under it! (For my part, I was able to ward off a panic attack. So yay?)

[waverly]

akafred , thanks for weighing in. No doctor has ever mentioned ASD, but ADHD could be possible. It is more an impulse control thing rather than an attention thing. He sits at his desk and does his work fine during the day.

I really wasn't aware of a maturity issue in ADHD, I never really looked into it. It kind of makes sense that if it were a 25% lag in maturity that it might not show up until older ages perhaps? Like he seems normal in comparison to his peers, but now they are advancing he doesn't seem to be at the maturity I might expect of an almost 8 year old, but then I wonder are my expectations too high or is he too low?


Also the self preservation is an important point.    

[waverly]

What would a psych or adhd/ impulse control eval look like?

[akafred]

He could have ADHD-primarily hyperactive/impulsive type, which doesn’t Have the same “attention deficit” of the other types (ADHD-primarily inattentive type or ADHD-combined type). Also it could be he has supports in place either for hearing loss or just by nature of accommodating teachers that helps provide whatever structure he needs to be more successful at his desk.

Or, he could just be a little behind in this area. No pun intended.

[waverly]

akafred, I still laughed at your not pun. I told my co-workers about the butt touching and they all laugh, and I am like it's not funny. It's the me too movement and DS already has 3 immediate family members, 2 counselors, and 1 poor random girl to come forward. He's going to grow up and be like this, and they all say no he won't.


But you know I have been wondering about his whole picture for a long time now. I was reading on one of the ADHD websites and he does seem far more inattentive and impulsive than he does hyperactive.

[auntie]

Sept 6, 2018 7:09:29 GMT -5 waverly said:

No actual diagnosis besides the hearing loss.

It seems like the first 3 things you listed- sports related, potty humor, thinks it’s funny. No actual grabbing or squeezing.

But yes I am very concerned due to the age- almost 8. I feel he should know better. The fact he was doing it with several people. Doesn’t seem to understand the issue of why not to do it. Calls it an accident. The fact it seems now to be targeted towards women/ girls.


Yes. He has reached an age when it is an inappropriate behavior and one that could have unpleasant consequences. Kids tis age can be pretty intolerant of those who lag in maturity. Nobody is a judgey of an undesirable behavior as a kid who has just outgrown it. And the fact that he's targeting girls is unfortunate because it can easily be interpreted as sexual or misogynistic. 

At what point do I say get an eval? If it happens again or now?


Here's the thing, you're getting notified by teachers so this is impacting his "educational day". Sometimes when kids have already been identified with a specific disability or difference (hearing loss is a biggie); professionals will see all behaviors in the context of that and miss something else that's running in the background. 


I would consider getting an eval now because of his age. The consequences of behaviors and poor executive function are going to start to ramp up in the next year. There's a huge leap in social and emotional maturity around late 3rd/early 4th grade coming.


Your district and/or pedi can start the process. I would ask for a private psychologist referral for an eval. This should include interacting with your DS, having teachers, caregivers, even coaches and parents complete a set of scales. Ideally, you'd want your DS to complete the BASC to tease out how this is impacting him emotionally and also have the psych observe him in school- during a structured time and also during an unstructured class/recess. 

It has happened at home and then stopped, at camp withconsequence and stopped and now at school. So happened 3 times. Because he stops it I feel like he can control it. But then he does this. He also gets in trouble at aftercare for things I might consider to be impulsive or getting angry about silly things. Yelling at kids, throwing things, hands on kids.


Being able to restrain himself at times is typical. When a behavior- self regulation in this instance- is in an emerging stage, it can come and go for a long time before it is finally mastered. It's also typical that an emerging skill might be more reliably present in some settings and difficult for the child to access in others. 


ADHD can present in a number of ways and it does tend to morph over the years. DS, as a little kid, was very impulsive and at times inattentive; his anxiety sometimes clouded attention which made sorting things out harder. He and my niece were never hyperactive, but I'm pretty sure my mother was/is. OMG, I was at the hospital with her last week for a cardiac cath and I thought she was going to go out of her mind being confined to bed for a couple hours while they made sure her artery was closing properly. I've had scouts who were super impulsive and hyper who lost the hyper stuff around puberty and improved around the impulsivity a few years later. With age, the executive function deficits are the tough part. DS and my niece tend to be procrastinators which is a problem for them. My mother and niece have a poor sense of how long tasks take and tend to be chronically late. LOL, I did an experiment with them a few months ago. I asked mother, niece and son how long it takes to get from my house to my mother's. Mother said "8 minutes", niece said "about 10 minutes" and DS said "20 minutes during morning rush but it could 30 if you hit a train crossing". 


I've never seen a source that talks about the size of the lag in ADHDers as they do with ASD. (DS has both; the last time we looked at this issue his delay was close to 25% which is not bad for someone with AS/ADHD) The full scale Vineland can hint at how delayed he is in terms of self regulation and social/emotional maturity. The other concern is getting upset over "silly things". There are two pieces to that- the ADHD piece is more about the self regulation that would allow him to get pissed off and get over it without drawing attention and a more insidious piece that would look at why he is "over-reacting" to the situation in the first place. For DS, over-reactions early on were about anxiety/misreading a situation; later his well-honed sense of injustice drove this bus. 

I was tempted to pull him last year from aftercare.


I hear you. Unstructured times can be really hard.