WWWPD?

[supertrooper1]

Today at the grocery store, I witnessed something that I'm curious how others would have handled it.

I watched a mom with 2 kids (2&4maybe?)unleash on an elderly man. She and her kids were having a bad day. She was yelling at them while I was getting a cart because the one was darting into traffic. In the produce section, she was loudly yelling at one that was having a meltdown over pushing a kids cart. The elderly man made a comment, something to the effect of he's just a kid. The mom came unglued, yelling at the man, finger in his face, telling him that he was what was wrong with society. The whole store was talking about her because of not only that incident, but she continued to loudly yell at her kids throughout the store.

I was on the fence about what to do. I felt for the mom because we all have had bad days with our kids. But she had no right to treat the elderly man like she did. I also went into law enforcement mode, waiting to pounce and break up a fight. What would you have done?

[sdlaura]

One of my personality flaws is that I'm a bit of a busybody I would have said something - maybe something like "whoa, whoa, no need to argue. We're all just doing our best here." And then I would have stuck around while she went on her way and told the elderly man that I agreed with him....or something like that.

But I don't think my instincts are necessarily right - so don't beat yourself up at all for not doing anything.  It may have just escalated the situation.

[sacattack]

I would have just talked to the man after and said something like you didn't deserve that, she must be having a bad day.

[waverly]

It depends. I tend to avoid situations that are a potential safety concern although this didn't really sound like that, but could have gone that way. If it was really bad I might tell store management. If my H were with me he would likely say something to someone that is harassing someone else. I know he has done that at a grocery store before with a woman harassing an elderly man but I think she was starting to get in his space as well like acting like she was going to push him or run into him with the cart. Yelling I wouldn't consider to be as bad as physical usually and might keep an eye on it.  I have called because I was afraid a fight might break out, but that was like 10 drunk people all yelling. 

Since I work in a public building with a closer relationship with the police department I am also more comfortable calling the police in cases of a fight breaking out than I might have been before this job. We've had a few incidences here, but wasn't there for them, so I have only called on a fight right outside the doors in the parking lot where the guy looked like he was strangling the girl, and when a woman fell and broke her shoulder. Or I have had to tell people to leave the building. But since not my building that would be up to store management.


When people are having a bad day I look to find ways to help even if just a smile. But in her case it was too far gone for that.

[cosmowife]

The elderly man should have kept his mouth shut. I don’t need anyone telling me how to parent in public. I’ll admit I’d rather err on the side of yelling at my kids too much in public rather than allow them to be assholes. However, the mom shouldn’t have yelled at the man and gotten in his space. I have sympathy for the mom because you just can’t win when your kids are misbehaving. And running in traffic and having ridiculous melt downs are both things that i will try to correct immediately. I didn’t witness it, but I’m pissed at the old guy, just from reading your story.

[madringal]

Oct 30, 2018 15:27:09 GMT -5 cosmowife said:

The elderly man should have kept his mouth shut. I don’t need anyone telling me how to parent in public. I’ll admit I’d rather err on the side of yelling at my kids too much in public rather than allow them to be assholes. However, the mom shouldn’t have yelled at the man and gotten in his space. I have sympathy for the mom because you just can’t win when your kids are misbehaving. And running in traffic and having ridiculous melt downs are both things that i will try to correct immediately. I didn’t witness it, but I’m pissed at the old guy, just from reading your story.

Yup me too. I'm so over all these grandparent types lecturing young parents when their children throw a fit. Clearly the mom was having a rough time and his judgment is not what she needed.  What she probably really needed was someone to help her. Someone to just say something kind and encouraging in the moment. IS she a terrible mother, maybe? But its more likely that she is an overwhelmed mother that just wanted to get her groceries and get the heck out of there.

[sdlaura]

I doubt she's a terrible mother, and with 3 kids 6 and under, I get these types of comments all the time (I can't leave the house without hearing about how I have my hands full - in not necessarily a nice way). If the elderly guy had said "he's just a kid" she easily could have said "yeah, he's just a kid who's not listening" or whatever - no matter how bad of a day I'm having, I can't see getting in an elderly person's face and yelling in public. The OP made it sound like the woman was clearly a bit off, rather than simply overwhelmed, you know?

[k3am]

Not my circus, not my monkeys. Unless he's at risk of being harmed by her, I wouldn't get involved.

I wouldn't jump on board and assume that he was antagonizing her or judging her though based on OP's comments - it's not clear what exactly he said. It's really hard to know what he said vs. how she interpreted it. She obviously didn't take it that way, but there's a chance that he WAS trying to be encouraging.

[sandandsea]

I’m with k3am. Not my deal, ignore and carry on or just stay away. I’m a chicken.

My MiL is the kind that would tell the kids they need to behave and listen to their mom. She never lets a good opportunity to throw her 2 cents in pass her by.

[supertrooper1]

It didn't escalate to the point of calling the cops or the store manager. The elderly man actually went up to one of 2 produce guys working nearby and told him they shouldn't allow people that act like that in the store. I overheard the produce guy tell the other coworker that crazy people are in their store all the time and don't get kicked out and the old guy should have just minded his own business. When I moved towards the bakery, the bakery employees were saying how if it had been their kids, they would have taken them to the car right away.

I agree, the elderly man should have just stayed out of it, but I feared for his safety for a minute. That is why I stood by and watched. But I think she would have turned on me, even if I had been on her side.

[ilovelucyvv]

I have been that mom with the yelling, but hopefully not to that extreme. The elderly man should have minded his own business but I wouldn’t have responded to him the way she did.

[cosmowife]

Oct 30, 2018 17:47:31 GMT -5 supertrooper1 said:

When I moved towards the bakery, the bakery employees were saying how if it had been their kids, they would have taken them to the car right away.

Fuck those bakery employees too. Like this woman managed to get her kids out of the house, is actually at the grocery store, and just has to finish getting her groceries, and the employees thought that she should just leave? Like she has all day to try again later? Maybe she had limited time to get this errand done. There’s no way in hell I would ever leave a grocery store once I managed to make it inside. That’s like 50% of the struggle.

[ECB]

Oct 31, 2018 6:29:38 GMT -5 cosmowife said:

Oct 30, 2018 17:47:31 GMT -5 supertrooper1 said:

When I moved towards the bakery, the bakery employees were saying how if it had been their kids, they would have taken them to the car right away.

Fuck those bakery employees too. Like this woman managed to get her kids out of the house, is actually at the grocery store, and just has to finish getting her groceries, and the employees thought that she should just leave? Like she has all day to try again later? Maybe she had limited time to get this errand done. There’s no way in hell I would ever leave a grocery store once I managed to make it inside. That’s like 50% of the struggle.

Seriously.  

How she acted towards the old man was uncalled for - full stop.  Getting in his face? No.  Unnecessary.  But he should have minded his own business too.  

She could be an asshole overall in life.  Or she could be a woman who has had a shitton of bad luck thrown her way and she reached her breaking point.  Who the heck  knows.

Her actions aren't excused, but the people judging her for simply being in the store and yelling at her kids need to back off.  

[justcheckingin73]

Unless she’s an absolutely horrible person, I’m guessing she is feeling immense guilt from unleashing on the man-and I’m also guessing that some of that unleashing was probably meant for her kids.

I’ve been the one yelling at my kids so I understand. My youngest used to thrown epic tantrums and it didn’t matter if he had enough sleep, had eaten, was in a good mood before. He was a loose cannon and I didn’t always handle it well. Once in the library an older lady offered candy while I was trying to deal with DS during a tantrum. I did my best to be gracious because I know she was trying to help, but I really wanted to say, leave us alone, I’m dealing with this. I wasn’t yelling at him but it’s distracting when people try to talk to you as you’re dealing with a tantruming kid. 

Ultimately, I probably wouldn’t have said anything to her and I agree that the guy shouldn’t have said anything to her either. I’ve had people say things to me when I’ve corrected DSs behavior-oh he’s fine, just a kid, etc. They usually get “the look” from me because I’m teaching manners so stay out of my business. 

[k3am]

I’m sure this is going to be unpopular, but I don’t understand everyone rushing to defend this woman. There is NO excuse for her behavior. If she’s so stressed by kids, life, whatever extenuating circumstances that her response to these stresses is to behave like this - where strangers are worried she’s going to snap and go after someone, regardless of what he may have said - maybe she should go home. Maybe she should go back to the car, hit rewind, and try again.

This kind of behavior is not okay.

I get that this isn’t going to be popular - I hesitated to even write it. I have walked out of stores when my kids misbehaved and I was at my breaking point. It inconvenienced my day and things didn’t get done, but the world didn’t end.

[waverly]

Oct 31, 2018 9:39:54 GMT -5 k3am said:

I’m sure this is going to be unpopular, but I don’t understand everyone rushing to defend this woman. There is NO excuse for her behavior. If she’s so stressed by kids, life, whatever extenuating circumstances that her response to these stresses is to behave like this - where strangers are worried she’s going to snap and go after someone, regardless of what he may have said - maybe she should go home. Maybe she should go back to the car, hit rewind, and try again.

This kind of behavior is not okay.

I get that this isn’t going to be popular - I hesitated to even write it. I have walked out of stores when my kids misbehaved and I was at my breaking point. It inconvenienced my day and things didn’t get done, but the world didn’t end.

I am here.  I get parenting is hard.  But especially since supertrooper1 is LEO, I trust her assessment of the situation that the woman was out of control/ out of line.

Yes random old people strangers are very difficult to deal with when they give their opinion on parenting especially when you are all about to lose it (kids and parents), but in no way does that warrant screaming in their face to the point that a physical altercation is about to break out. 

[supertrooper1]

But especially since supertrooper1 is LEO, I trust her assessment of the situation that the woman was out of control/ out of line.

Yes random old people strangers are very difficult to deal with when they give their opinion on parenting especially when you are all about to lose it (kids and parents), but in no way does that warrant screaming in their face to the point that a physical altercation is about to break out. 


[/quote]

And this is why I asked the question in the first place because I always have my LEO hat on. If I had been at work, I would have jumped in, grabbed an elbow and escorted her out of the situation. But I have to think of optics. We're constantly told at work to be good witnesses off duty because if it made the papers, I'm off duty Fed, not citizen Jane.
Yes, it was a struggle for her to get out of the house and to the store with the kids. But at what point does she have to cut her losses and go home, since it was a bad day for all. I'm still torn on this.

ETA, I didn't quote the first part correctly and now it wont let me fix it.

[mommyatty]

I’m with k3am. And if you’re screaming at your kids multiple times in one store trip with your kids, you need a parenting class. I’ve had to speak harshly to my kids to get them in line, but yelling? You’re the adult. Get your emotions under control and act like it. And have some respect for yourself and your kids. If you can’t get yourself under control (Which is a precursor to getting your kids under control), remove yourself from the situation until you can.

And wow. What did she teach her kids about respecting elders when she menaced an old man? I’ve said more than once to someone, always kindly, “I know many kids are allowed to (run around in a restaurant, yell in a store), but mine know in our family it’s not okay. And they are great kids, so I know they can do it.” Usually the remark is because I’ve shaken my head or given a pointed look at my kids to get them to stop something. Never because I was having an adult tantrum.

I wouldn’t have become involved unless I thought she was abusing her kid. Which may be what the old man thought. Or unless I thought she was going to get physical, in which case I would have gotten the store manager.

[rere]

I have perfected the speak through gritted teeth, so my kids are more worried about that than the yelling. As someone who works with kids, the softer tone elicits more effective behavior changes.

If she was making a big enough spectacle to draw the attention of several strangers and staff, she probably should remove herself and the kids.

Unwisely, I probably would have told her to back up off the old man, but I have a soft spot for seniors.

[waverly]

I think you did exactly right. Strong arming outside for a woman yelling could be a bit much unless other customers were complaining and felt unsafe. The grocery store thought that behavior while strange was within their community norms. You stayed and kept a careful eye on it ready to intervene if the behavior became violent. It blew over, and everyone moved on.


In our building, employees would have talked to the woman and asked her to lower her voice first. If that didn't work then we would ask her to leave. If she didn't leave then we would call the cops. This is in our patron behavior policy as we are a government organization who take a stricter stance on behavior and those are our community norms. If we hadn't followed through numerous patrons would have complained to us.

[xctsclrx]

I am trying to think of a situation where it would be appropriate for me to threaten or verbally assault a stranger.

If they tried to grab, touch, harm one of my kids or myself. Even that would be situational. Are they grabbing my kid because they are about to run out in front of traffic it is a thank you so much for saving my kid. If it is because my kid is annoying them and they overstepped.

I don't yell. I don't scream. I will find my mean mom scary voice and use it. Mine is more of a growl.

The more appropriate response from the mom would have been a mind your own business to the gentlemen.

[akafred]

Both adults (and kids from the sound of it) were wrong. Sounds like the woman was out of control, and the store trip was simply too much for her in that moment. Maybe there is a really understandable reason for that and I have much empathy for her. I’m not judging her. But it sounds like this was a recipe for disaster from the time they were in the parking lot on.

AND the elderly man should have kept his mouth shut. Just because it’s true (maybe) doesn’t mean you should say it! Most of the time, especially in the state that woman sounds like she was in, it will only escalate the situation. A smile, a kind comment about the kids, an offer to help would have gone much farther.

I don’t talk about this much, but my very worst moment as a parent happened in public. It was 2-3 days before my hysterectomy, and my anxiety was out of control. I was convinced I was not going to wake up. Seriously. But I was afraid to tell anyone about it. I was barely holding it together on any given day, and I was probably a bit unstable. I couldn’t sleep, I couldn’t eat, I could barely manage my work and home responsibilities. I was convinced I would never see my baby again. And I took DD to gymnastics and went and cried in my car for an hour and went to get her. She was 4. When I went to get her, she wasn’t there. She wasn’t anywhere. I frantically ran to ask the woman who watched the door if they saw her (no), I went in the bathroom, I went in the office, I went upstairs. Nowhere. She was supposed to still be in the arena behind the wall because they don’t let kids go until their moms get there, but that was not something to stop her, so it’s absolutely plausible she could go over the wall without being seen. The teachers had no idea where she was. Finally on my third trip to the check out spot, she emerged from a hiding place. She had been hiding from me! OMG! To say my amygdala was activated would be a massive understatement. Utter panic! Even on a good day that gym gets my anxiety up because of the sensory overload and crushing chaos of a million people in a tight space trying to get their kids in and out. As we left, DD (possibly sensing my mess of emotions) takes off from holding my hand and runs into the busy parking lot. I should have snatched her up and run to the car and gotten out of there, but I was following some parenting advice or something to do a time out on the spot on the sidewalk. I kept having to kind of scoop up her legs and sit her down because she would get up and try to run. I didn’t think I was being at all rough with her, but maybe in my adrenaline state I was tougher than I thought (but I can say with 100% certainty that DD was not injured). Or maybe the woman who confronted me was entirely off base. But I can tell you that her confronting me and telling me that I was “violating” my child was NOT helpful in the least in that moment. It certainly didn’t calm me and it certainly didn’t make me feel any safer. Just as my reaction to DD running off had made her heightened state worse, that woman had made mine worse.

Like I said, that was my very worst moment ever and I am profoundly embarrassed to talk about it, but I know that I am a completely different mother now. I know better my limitations and I know DD’s, and I understand better what makes her tick. I can get curious when I used to get mad or frustrated. And I also learned for sure that I will never confront an overwhelmed mom like that. It can’t possibly do any good.

[covergirl82]

I understand bad days as a mom, but that doesn't means it's ok to act like that in public for an entire grocery trip. Grab only what is immediately necessary (like they couldn't make it through the day without it) and head for the checkout.

I would say the older man should probably have kept quiet, but I also think there may be some generational differences at play here. For someone his age, it wouldn't have been unusual to say something like that 20, 30+ years ago. But people (generalizing here) nowadays are so sensitive about receiving feedback that many people avoid saying something altogether, so it's just not common anymore.

I did see a security officer at work treated horribly by an executive. The security officer is K9 handler and had his K9 with him to respond to a request for security presence by our front desk. The executive loudly, in an open office environment, questioned why he was "allowed" in our office and who "authorized" his access. (Which seems dumb, because why wouldn't a security office have access to any company office building/suite?) I had interacted with this security officer in the past, and he is a wonderful person. Another coworker and I found him later on that day to tell him how sorry we were as to how he was treated. He brushed off how the executive treated him, but this coworker and I felt compelled to say something to him.

[akafred]

covergirl82, trust me, I’m not defending the mom. I’m just saying I know from personal experience that confronting her would not be helpful.

[HeartofCheese]

I just can't judge the woman. You really don't know about the rest of her day. Getting food for her mom's wake b/c no one else is supportive enough to do it for her? Just found out her H is cheating and she can't afford to leave him and doesn't want to leave the kids with him to parent alone? Just lost her job and this is her last trip to the store or first trip with food stamps? i just can't judge. Moments like these happen all the time, but they usually only happen to one person once.

The old man though? I can judge him. A majority of old men have the worst perspective of parenting. They were typically uninvolved in their own children's lives with unrealistic expectations of their wives - and now that they're old - they don't remember what having kids is like and they have no idea what expectations are for parenting (or being a WM parenting) now.

That said, I probably would have tailed the woman a bit to smile at her. And if she refused to look at anyone, I would have smiled at her children. And if I had the opportunity, I would have smiled at her and told her kids that they need to mind their mama b/c she's the most important person in the world. I've had people do this when my kids were really little and my H was being the biggest fucking douche in the store and it was obvious that I was at my end. I was on guard at first, but once I heard them backing me up, it didn't make it better - but it helped me relax a bit and gave me a new tactic for getting the kids to behave.

ETA: supertrooper1, I think you handled it correctly, too. As a LEO, I would think it's a good tactic to be hands off unless someone is physically harmed.

[waverly]

I am not judging the mom; we have all been on our last nerve with the kids for sure.

I don't think it is that easy for LEO to just take off their law enforcement hat. So I think from that point of view and mine of being in charge of a public building it is safety first. After safety is taken care of you can take care of the emotional aspect. If safety is not a concern then jump right to the emotional. We often as assisting with patrons emotional needs at the desk, and I don't know how to explain it but with experience have some help in talking them in a way that help them feel better. Commiserating with a mom on who is about to lose it. Helping them in any way that we can. In a grocery setting, perhaps helping them with their groceries out to their car, for example.


akafred, When I had DD in gymnastics she used to tantrum every time we had to leave the gym. She was overtired and irrational. I did just try to bolt out of there, but there were many times I had to pick her up kicking and screaming and walk a long ways to my car. And she was 4 and heavy and lots of stranger stares or not very helpful attempts to help me. Or I remember trying to get her coat off what I thought was the empty 3 year old room and she was flailing around and was going to get hurt and I was yelling at her and try to get her to stop flailing, and some guy and his kid came out of the bathroom, and I was like oh that must have looked sooo bad. He was smart and didn't say anything to me, but I did wonder if he would complain to the director about it.