An American Marriage - book club discussion

[CrazyLucky]

Apologies to ufcasey for starting this without her.  

I really enjoyed the book and I've been looking forward to reading other people's thoughts too.  I found a list of questions to get us started:

1. Why is the title, An American Marriage, significant to the story? What does the title mean to you?

2. Celestial and Roy write letters to each other while he’s in jail. What do these letters tell us about the characters’ relationship?

3. What roles do race and class play in the book? Why do you think Jones chose not to identify the race of the woman who accused Roy?

4. At what point did Celestial and Roy’s marriage begin to fall apart? Do you think they would have stayed together if Roy hadn’t gone to prison?

5. Were you surprised by how Celestial’s relationship with Andre developed? Which man did you think was better suited to be Celestial’s partner? Why?

6. How do you think the story would have been different if Roy had been accused, but not convicted?

7. Celestial’s art reflects her life experiences. How does her art define her as a character? Why do you think Jones chose to make her an artist?

8. As you were reading, did you think that Celestial and Roy would reunite and save their marriage? Why?

9. Which character did you identify with most? Did having three first-person narratives help you better understand the characters’ motivations?

10. How did you feel about the conclusion? Did you think that Celestial made the right decision?

[CrazyLucky]

Like I said, I really liked the book. I like books where there isn't a clear cut answer. No one was really the "bad guy" and I felt like I could put myself in the shoes of any of the three main characters. I'm a little disappointed none of the questions are about Roy's family. I felt like his parents had the kind of marriage I'd want. Nothing super fancy, just lots of love and always being there for each other.

I honestly didn't realize that the accuser's race wasn't specified. I guess in my mind, it was a racist old white lady. I guess she chose not to identify the race because the point wasn't the racism of the accuser, or even the racism of the jury, but what happened afterwards.

I'm not sure if Roy and Celestial would have stayed together. Roy seemed like he wanted it to work and was willing to make the effort, but he was still doing stuff he shouldn't have been doing, like getting phone numbers for other women. But if Roy didn't go to jail, I don't think Celestial and Andre would have gotten together.

I didn't think that Celestial and Roy would get back together, especially not after she and Dre practically moved in together, especially after she quit writing letters. I think Celestial made the right decision. Spending the rest of your life with someone out of a feeling of obligation is not a good idea.

Looking forward to your thoughts!

[travella]

Ok, I'm in the minority here. I loved the author's writing style, but I didn't like the story. It felt like she was trying too hard to bring drama. To me it felt like she got the idea for the story from an episode of Maury Povich. It turns out she got her inspiration from an argument at a mall so I guess I wasn't too far off. I think I would have liked the story a lot better had Celeste and Roy been a good couple. Their relationship was toxic from the start (he was trying to make her jealous with the idea of there being another woman. I feel that he would have eventually cheated and the relationship would have ended anyway...) so I just couldn't care about their relationship.

I did like the idea of writing about how imprisonment affects relationships and families. I just wish the story used a couple that had a good relationship to start with and focused more on the emotional toll rather than pack dramatic situation after dramatic situation (not signing the divorce papers, abortion, living next door, unprotected sex with the other woman....)to keep the reader's attention. I guess I wanted the story too feel more real and less like a cheap drama.

[secretlyevil]

I’m on my phone so these will be initially shorter answers. I will probably come back and add more.

2. Celestial and Roy write letters to each other while he’s in jail. What do these letters tell us about the characters’ relationship?

The letters really showed how very young they were in the beginning and then how circumstances changed them.

3. What roles do race and class play in the book? Why do you think Jones chose not to identify the race of the woman who accused Roy?

Race and class were the very foundation of this book. From showing the differences between Celestial and Roy’s childhood to the narrative about being a black man in the United States.

IMO, omitting the race of the victim was a misstep.

4. At what point did Celestial and Roy’s marriage begin to fall apart? Do you think they would have stayed together if Roy hadn’t gone to prison?

Roy going to prison was a pivotal moment that had dire consequences. The minute he was sentenced, it started negatively impacting their marriage but I think it was the loss of the first appeal that was the end. Celestial is not a bad person. However, I think even if Roy hadn’t gone to prison, they probably wouldn’t have lasted. It seemed like they were in love with the idea of marriage more than each other.

5. Were you surprised by how Celestial’s relationship with Andre developed? Which man did you think was better suited to be Celestial’s partner? Why?

I am not surprised about the boy next door. I think neither of them were good for Celestial. I believe she didn’t really know how to be on her own. Other than her first year of college, Andre had always been there.

8. As you were reading, did you think that Celestial and Roy would reunite and save their marriage? Why?

No, I didn’t think their marriage stood a chance.

9. Which character did you identify with most? Did having three first-person narratives help you better understand the characters’ motivations?

The three first-person narrative was interesting. I listened to the book which may have been easier for their uniqueness to come through.

10. How did you feel about the conclusion? Did you think that Celestial made the right decision?

I think not divorcing Roy while he was in prison gave him false hope. On the other hand, it probably helped him survive. I didn’t like Celestial very much.

[minzy]

It has been months and months since I read this, but I liked the writing and rated it 4.5 stars. I didn’t love the ending, because it was an impossible love triangle scenario. In that way, Roy reminded me of two movie characters: Tom Hanks’ character in Cast Away and Brad Pitt’s in Legends of the Fall. Like Roy, they went through a lengthy exiled struggle and both returned after a lapse of time, and everything had changed. There was no way to go back, but damn didn’t it seem unfair that their partners had moved on. The inherent unfairness of the final situation also made all three stories pretty great, in my opinion.

[ufcasey]

Total book club fail on my part!!! Sorry!!! Thanks CrazyLucky for getting this started.

Tagging other people who might have read this book:
dochas, abs, meowmaps, pinotgrig, msmerymac, tacokick, MrsAxilla, pumpkin, wesleycrusher, 1234FIF!, Jalapeñomel, aurora, Gato, erbear, mrspez07, just, isabel, sapphireblue, rainbowchip, jamaicam, TR, @villainv, travella, foodiemom, spearmintleaf, jinkies, badgergrl, glw, miniroller, rootbeerfloat, minzy, bdubs419, lavender444, whitemerlot, wildrice, spedrunner, oliviapope, tcu2003, sassy1ja, wkatie, Nonny, Vespasia, bowies, eclaires, bex, colliebabe, m15, bronxgirl, monkeyfeet, gummybear

As always, feel free to answer the questions in the OP or just give your thoughts about the book in general

[ufcasey]

This has been a crazy week so I'm just going to give my thoughts on the book because I read it back in March of last year and some of the details are a little fuzzy.

Roy - his character was SO REAL. His thoughts/emotions/actions were all very realistic and he really made the story for me. The audiobook narrator for his 'voice' was perfect too fyi. He definitely made lots of questionable decisions the whole time, but I still rooted for him the most.

Celestial - I understood her motivations/actions but I honestly never really 'got' why she chose to be with Andre. He definitely seemed more invested in the relationship than she was. I also question how likely it is for making handmade unique dolls to become a successful business because I am cynical like that.

Andre - Dude he was totally all into Celestial and while I was happy that he got a HEA with her considering how much he was into her, I didn't really grow attached to him as a character.

Overall, I totally would read another book about these characters going forward in their lives because they just seemed that real to me. I also will keep an eye out for other books by this author

[aurora]

I want to discuss, but will need to come back from a computer tomorrow. Thanks for tagging me!

[meowmaps]

I really loved An American Marriage and especially the writing and how artfully Jones shared how everyone's lives unfolded, chapter by chapter.

I don't think Roy and Celestial's marriage would've lasted pre-incarceration because of his inappropriate flirting. It seems like he got off on making Celestial jealous and I'm sure Celestial would've gotten sick of the games. I think their marriage only stood a chance if Celestial had waited for Roy and stayed invested in their marriage while he was incarcerated. When he came out he was understandably jaded by the injustice he experienced, but he was also more humble.

One thing that really irked me about Celestial was how she kept one foot in the marriage even when she was done. She should've filed for divorce either while he was inside or immediately upon hearing of his release. I cannot tell you how infuriating it was for me to read about Roy and Celestial's reunion and how she stonewalled him every time he asked her why she hadn't filed for divorce. How does a woman who previously had never seemed afraid to speak her mind suddenly not have anything to say? I think she owed him at least a productive conversation.

I didn't really understand Dre and Celestial's coupling. They had a chance to be together many years previously and Celestial opted out. I don't think she was carrying a torch for him like he was carrying for her. It was kind of shitty that this came about while Roy was unjustly imprisoned. I also found it interesting how Celestial's dad was against their pairing and was defending Roy. I think that really spoke to the injustice of Roy's imprisonment. I think her dad really thought she should've stood by her man. I don't necessarily agree. I didn't blame her for choosing herself, but I did blame her for not being more forthright with him.

It was so heartbreaking and real when Roy Sr. said to Dre, when stalling his return to Atlanta, he's my son. I loved Roy Sr. and Roy's mom. I wonder if Roy's mom never liked Celestial because she sensed that she wouldn't stick with him through the tough times.

Honestly, I think Roy got the happier ending. I really liked Davina for him. She seemed more well-suited to his personality. I think she wanted to take care of him, like his mom probably did. Celestial wasn't that kind of wife.

[expectantsteelerfan]

I struggled with this book a lot. I didn't identify with any of the characters for almost anything. And while I understood a lot of their actions and the unjust-ness and sheer impossibility of the situation, I didn't feel emotionally invested with any of them and didn't really care about what happened.

I didn't understand Roy and Celestial's marriage before the accusation, and that is I think where my main struggle with the book stemmed from. Is theirs the epitome of an American marriage? Roy's propensity to flirt (and assuming in some way or another, cheat on Celestial) recalled for me the stereotypical philandering black male whole cannot be counted on to be faithful. I haven't studied race relations recently enough to know if that is still a stereotype that is applicable or one they are overcoming, but adding in that brief but glaring detail made me question the author's view of all black men as husbands, whether that was the intention or not. And then when he hooked up with the woman whose name I can't remember when getting out, while still intending to go fight for Celestial and his marriage, it just enforced that view even more.

The one part that I did identify with was Celestial's 'falling in' with Andre yet not divorcing Roy. I have found that when I am in a situation where I truly don't know what to do or how to make an impossible choice, indecision is crippling to the point where not making a decision leads life to move on in a way that eventually either makes the decision for you or takes away so many choices you no longer have the decision to make. I could see how being alone with Roy imprisoned would lead to her leaning on Andre and getting closer without necessarily meaning to, and realizing what she was allowing to happen without being all in with him or all out with Roy.

And the fight between Roy and Andre. Again, I could be reading this wrong, but black men are accused of violence and jailed for it unjustly so much. So why highlight an act that perpetuates that negative stereotype? Is the author trying to show the truth in the stereotype (while still highlighting how unfair it is when they are wrongly convicted)?

I feel like there was more I was supposed to be getting from this book.

[pinotgrig]

I gave this one 4 stars.

I was impressed with Jones’ ability to really quickly make me feel like I got to know the characters and get where they were coming from. I wasn’t sure about the letters at first, but I thought they worked really well for that purpose. I found a Celestial’s and Roy’s characters to be complex, deep, and fully-formed and depending on whose POV I was reading, I empathized completely with them and their struggles.

I get why Celestial moved on while Roy was in prison; she didn’t know how long he was going to be there and his early release was a complete surprise to everyone. In the life she was trying to make for herself, I can understand why she didn’t want to be tethered to you an inmate. Instead of being Celestial the artist, she would’ve been at Celestial the artist who has a husband in jail.

And I can understand why Roy wanted to hang onto their relationship. His life had been turned upside down through no fault of his own, and he wanted to maintain his marriage with her despite the circumstances. It’s really unfair since he was falsely accused and it was just a bad situation for everyone. I’m not sure how I would’ve reacted in that situation.

I thought the author did a good job capturing how complex marriage can be. You know when you have a fight with your significant other/spouse and they feel so far away, like nothing you could say could ever reach them. And then sometimes it’s easy and things flow and feel natural. I really felt the essence of that in this book. I was also impressed with how much time was packed into this book. The story has a long arc but it didn’t feel rushed, and I thought the pacing was handled really well.

Overall, I really liked it!

[rainbowchip]

I read this book back in May so the details are a little fuzzy. I rated this book 3 stars. I didn't like how it jumped around but the characters were well developed according to my review on goodreads.

The title for me points out that the stereotype of black people not being in committed relationships is a lot of times caused by other stereotypes and racism. This is also how marriage is in America. Another thing, when I typed the title into goodreads to look up when I read it, the book Barack and Michelle: Portrait of an American Marriage was two books below this on. I'm wondering if the title was a nod to that book showing how different it could be.

I can't remember what race I thought the accuser was but it's very interesting that her race wasn't identified. Especially when the whole book seemed to be trying to point out the collateral damage of systemic racism.

I don't think their marriage would have survived even if he wasn't convicted. They seemed very distrustful of each other and both played stupid games.

[krystee]

Roy was a well-defined character with many sides, and the author brought him to life very well. Meanwhile Celestial just sort of seemed to go along with what everyone else wanted: she named the store what Roy suggested, seemed to go be with Andre more because of what he wanted than what she wanted, would have let Roy sleep with her when she got out...and then the woman whose name I forget who Roy ends up with is basically there to cook for and sleep with him. I felt like I was supposed to sympathize with the injustice faced by a black man but ended up caring just as much about the sexism faced by black women.

[pinotgrig]

I also assumed Roy’s accuser was white. I’m not sure I could be convinced otherwise given how so much of the book dealt with systemic racism.

I also don’t think Roy and Celestial’s marriage would have lasted. He was a cheater and while it wasn’t a dealbreaker for Celestial to date, that just seems like a shaky foundation to build a life on. If she had been more ok with it, then cool. But she was really upset over one of them (a present maybe? I can’t remember 100%).

[dontlook]

Feb 1, 2019 10:02:30 GMT -5 expectantsteelerfan said:

I struggled with this book a lot. I didn't identify with any of the characters for almost anything. And while I understood a lot of their actions and the unjust-ness and sheer impossibility of the situation, I didn't feel emotionally invested with any of them and didn't really care about what happened.

I didn't understand Roy and Celestial's marriage before the accusation, and that is I think where my main struggle with the book stemmed from. Is theirs the epitome of an American marriage? Roy's propensity to flirt (and assuming in some way or another, cheat on Celestial) recalled for me the stereotypical philandering black male whole cannot be counted on to be faithful. I haven't studied race relations recently enough to know if that is still a stereotype that is applicable or one they are overcoming, but adding in that brief but glaring detail made me question the author's view of all black men as husbands, whether that was the intention or not. And then when he hooked up with the woman whose name I can't remember when getting out, while still intending to go fight for Celestial and his marriage, it just enforced that view even more.

The one part that I did identify with was Celestial's 'falling in' with Andre yet not divorcing Roy. I have found that when I am in a situation where I truly don't know what to do or how to make an impossible choice, indecision is crippling to the point where not making a decision leads life to move on in a way that eventually either makes the decision for you or takes away so many choices you no longer have the decision to make. I could see how being alone with Roy imprisoned would lead to her leaning on Andre and getting closer without necessarily meaning to, and realizing what she was allowing to happen without being all in with him or all out with Roy.

And the fight between Roy and Andre. Again, I could be reading this wrong, but black men are accused of violence and jailed for it unjustly so much. So why highlight an act that perpetuates that negative stereotype? Is the author trying to show the truth in the stereotype (while still highlighting how unfair it is when they are wrongly convicted)?

I feel like there was more I was supposed to be getting from this book.

I don’t think it’s on this author (or any author) to shy away from topics just to fight against stereotypes. I read this book last year this time but I remember thinking the characters were well developed. Roy was complex, he loves his wife and wanted to do right but flirted and tried to make her jealous. He wasn’t perfect, he was human. I think people often expect minorities to be perfect to combat stereotypes which isn’t fair. We are humans and make mistakes as well. It’s hard to carry a whole race.

I also thought celestial was a well-developed character. She didn’t have a backbone, she goes with the flow. I don’t think that was a writing flaw, I think she was crafted that way on purpose.

I do think their marriage would have survived simply because I doubt celestial would have left. She really didn’t like upsetting the apple cart at all so she would have stuck it out, unhappily.

I think the title was showing what *An* American marriage can look like for black people. They were a young couple full of promise and yet it’s all yanked away through no fault of their own.

[scm1011]

Jan 31, 2019 15:57:34 GMT -5 travella said:

I think I would have liked the story a lot better had Celeste and Roy been a good couple. Their relationship was toxic from the start (he was trying to make her jealous with the idea of there being another woman. I feel that he would have eventually cheated and the relationship would have ended anyway...) so I just couldn't care about their relationship.

I feel the same way. I enjoyed the book enough (although I found the letters portion a bit slow at times), but I didn't find myself rooting for either couple. I don't think Celestial and Roy would have stayed together long term if he hadn't gone to prison, and I feel like Andre was a convenient fallback plan rather than Celestial's true love. I think Roy and Davina probably have the best chance of true happiness of them all, so I'm glad that worked out. 

[aurora]

I read this book back in October so I'm sure I've forgotten some details, but I remember a fair amount with respect to the questions.

1. Why is the title, An American Marriage, significant to the story? What does the title mean to you?

I obviously don't know Jones' inner thoughts, but I assume it is meant to reduce racial "othering" that might happen for the still predominantly white population in our country. In other words, this story about a black man who is incarcerated for a crime he didn't commit, and the resulting impact on his and his wife's lives, is all too American and can happen all too easily. The story is part of our shared reality, even for those of us who don't have to worry about this discrimination and racial profiling affecting our own marriages.

3. What roles do race and class play in the book? Why do you think Jones chose not to identify the race of the woman who accused Roy?
As I answered in #1, I think race is very significant to Roy's imprisonment. I guess it says something about my own stereotypes and biases that I didn't even remember that Jones didn't state the race of his accuser. I definitely had it in my mind that she was white.

4. At what point did Celestial and Roy’s marriage begin to fall apart? Do you think they would have stayed together if Roy hadn’t gone to prison?

Clearly his imprisonment was at the minimum a catalyst for the end of the marriage, if not the main cause. I don't know if they would have stayed together, but obviously it would have been easier if they hadn't been separated and had such a major life stressor hanging over them. To be fair, I'm not particularly romantic in my notion of marriage. I assume there are quite a few marriages out there that seem happy in general but would fall apart in case of false imprisonment, major illness, major economic hardship, etc., and also quite a few marriages that ended during such stressful events that could have otherwise survived.

8. As you were reading, did you think that Celestial and Roy would reunite and save their marriage? Why?
From the title, I thought there was a chance (I know "marriage" is a noun, but I kind of read it in present tense at first, as opposed to "The End of an American Marriage" or "An American Divorce"). As I got further and learned more about the characters, it seemed to get less likely.

10. How did you feel about the conclusion? Did you think that Celestial made the right decision?

I didn't think she wanted to be married to Roy by the end, so it seems that she therefore made the right decision for her.

[aurora]

Jan 31, 2019 15:57:34 GMT -5 travella said:

Ok, I'm in the minority here. I loved the author's writing style, but I didn't like the story. It felt like she was trying too hard to bring drama. To me it felt like she got the idea for the story from an episode of Maury Povich. It turns out she got her inspiration from an argument at a mall so I guess I wasn't too far off. I think I would have liked the story a lot better had Celeste and Roy been a good couple. Their relationship was toxic from the start (he was trying to make her jealous with the idea of there being another woman. I feel that he would have eventually cheated and the relationship would have ended anyway...) so I just couldn't care about their relationship.

I did like the idea of writing about how imprisonment affects relationships and families. I just wish the story used a couple that had a good relationship to start with and focused more on the emotional toll rather than pack dramatic situation after dramatic situation (not signing the divorce papers, abortion, living next door, unprotected sex with the other woman....)to keep the reader's attention. I guess I wanted the story too feel more real and less like a cheap drama.

Oh, that's interesting that she got her inspiration from an argument she witnessed! It makes me realize I don't think all that much about where authors get their inspiration except when I read an article that brings it up.

[aurora]

I was also really bothered by Roy pushing Celestial to have unprotected sex after he got out of prison. I absolutely get that he wanted to experience a strong connection with his wife, and it's unforgivable that our "justice" system sent him to prison for a crime he didn't commit, but he didn't just make his case and accept her decision. He pushed well beyond appropriate levels.

[eclaires]

I feel like my thoughts are going to be all over the place.

First, though, I really enjoyed the aspect of Roy's relationship with Roy, Sr and him stepping up to be a dad. I was adopted by my stepfather and my biological father is still alive (he's just not in my life). So the whole meeting his biological dad in prison was really interesting and I thought everything related to both of those relationships was fascinating.

I found myself seeing both sides a lot when it came down to Roy and Celestial. I felt like their marriage was a little shaky to begin with due to the flirting/cheating, but I could see why she didn't want to be Celestial with the husband in jail. And how she was surprised when he was released early. At the same time though, I really did not ever care for her relationship with Dre. It just felt wrong to me and seemed like he was more invested. Maybe if it wasn't someone who had been friends with both of them - someone who came when Roy's mother died - I might have been less bothered by it. Or if I felt like she was as into it and he was the one for her. IDK. I didn't blame her for moving on, but maybe blamed her a bit for who she moved on with.

[wildrice]

Feb 1, 2019 12:42:48 GMT -5 dontlook said:

Feb 1, 2019 10:02:30 GMT -5 expectantsteelerfan said:

I struggled with this book a lot. I didn't identify with any of the characters for almost anything. And while I understood a lot of their actions and the unjust-ness and sheer impossibility of the situation, I didn't feel emotionally invested with any of them and didn't really care about what happened.

I didn't understand Roy and Celestial's marriage before the accusation, and that is I think where my main struggle with the book stemmed from. Is theirs the epitome of an American marriage? Roy's propensity to flirt (and assuming in some way or another, cheat on Celestial) recalled for me the stereotypical philandering black male whole cannot be counted on to be faithful. I haven't studied race relations recently enough to know if that is still a stereotype that is applicable or one they are overcoming, but adding in that brief but glaring detail made me question the author's view of all black men as husbands, whether that was the intention or not. And then when he hooked up with the woman whose name I can't remember when getting out, while still intending to go fight for Celestial and his marriage, it just enforced that view even more.

The one part that I did identify with was Celestial's 'falling in' with Andre yet not divorcing Roy. I have found that when I am in a situation where I truly don't know what to do or how to make an impossible choice, indecision is crippling to the point where not making a decision leads life to move on in a way that eventually either makes the decision for you or takes away so many choices you no longer have the decision to make. I could see how being alone with Roy imprisoned would lead to her leaning on Andre and getting closer without necessarily meaning to, and realizing what she was allowing to happen without being all in with him or all out with Roy.

And the fight between Roy and Andre. Again, I could be reading this wrong, but black men are accused of violence and jailed for it unjustly so much. So why highlight an act that perpetuates that negative stereotype? Is the author trying to show the truth in the stereotype (while still highlighting how unfair it is when they are wrongly convicted)?

I feel like there was more I was supposed to be getting from this book.

I don’t think it’s on this author (or any author) to shy away from topics just to fight against stereotypes. I read this book last year this time but I remember thinking the characters were well developed. Roy was complex, he loves his wife and wanted to do right but flirted and tried to make her jealous. He wasn’t perfect, he was human. I think people often expect minorities to be perfect to combat stereotypes which isn’t fair. We are humans and make mistakes as well. It’s hard to carry a whole race.

I also thought celestial was a well-developed character. She didn’t have a backbone, she goes with the flow. I don’t think that was a writing flaw, I think she was crafted that way on purpose.

I do think their marriage would have survived simply because I doubt celestial would have left. She really didn’t like upsetting the apple cart at all so she would have stuck it out, unhappily.

I think the title was showing what *An* American marriage can look like for black people. They were a young couple full of promise and yet it’s all yanked away through no fault of their own.

I agree with everything dontlook wrote. Additionally, though these things may be stereotypes for black men, I think they are pretty universally found among men of all races. I don't recall being struck that Roy was a black man behaving like that. I actually think I felt more empathy for him than I would have for a white man like him, because he worked so damned hard to be successful and present himself in a respectable way and had this promising life with a good job, a wife he was thrilled to be married to, a house, etc and then it was just ripped away from him through no fault of his own. He already had to fight harder to get what he had and it ended up being for nothing. 

It made me wonder what I'd do in Celestial's situation. I like to think I'd stand by my man, but realistically would I want to be the wife of a prisoner and be lonely and alone for years and years? And what is your spouse going to be like when he gets out? Would your marriage even survive being apart for years and living in such different worlds for so long? I just don't see my life that way, and I can see why she didn't either. Especially given that it's such a tired stereotype of the black woman waiting for her man to get out of prison. I can't fault her for seeing herself as too good for that.

I read this book about a year ago, so my memory is largely being jogged by other posts here. I thought it was a good book and I thought the least sympathetic character was Andre, though he added an interesting layer to the story. I'm glad everyone ended up happy (IIRC) but I thought the book overall was sad. Sad that people can do everything right and still end up being shit on by our "justice" system and our racist society.

[dontlook]

I also dislike Andre. He was just too....thirsty. I wanted to yell, “get your own girl”. He wanted her so much for so long.

I think the book had a great representation of different (black) men. Look at Roy sr, roy’s Biological dad and celestial’s dad.

[rootbeerfloat]

What I found most interesting about Andre was his interactions with his dad. He loved Celestial more than she would ever love him, so I guess yay for him that they ended up together, but it also seemed like he deserved better.

My favorite character was Roy Sr. I also appreciated how Celestial's dad and family friend (uncle? that was Roy's lawyer) supported him, not only because he was Celestial's husband, but because he was yet another black man wrongly imprisoned.

I had also assumed the accuser was a white woman.

[wesleycrusher]

The story hits close to home as my brother (and his girlfriend) are incarcerated and I adopted their child. So while our relationship is different, some of the overall themes of the book- about maintaining a relationship while life changes so much outside but not on the inside- are constant real-life thoughts. The book was well written and the characters were complex but it's not something I would have chosen to read at this time had I known what the book was about.

[Nonny]

To be honest, I didn't even notice that the race of the accuser wasn't explicitly called out.  I assumed she was white because she was so adamant that the rapist was Roy, and given that eyewitness accounts are so often blurred anyway, and get even more wrong when it's people identifying a member of another race, that my brain just filled in the details that "wrongly accused black man" == "wrongly accused by old white lady."

I found Roy and Celestial to be ill-suited towards each other from the beginning, and I wasn't surprised that their marriage was torn apart by his imprisonment.  Like lots of people have already said, that would definitely take it's toll even on the healthiest of marriages, and I feel like the two of them were kind of like what we used to call "bebe brides" back at the place that must not be named -- they were more in the love with the idea of marriage and how they were perceived as a married couple rather than how they were relating to each other.  He was constantly pressuring her to have a baby she didn't seem to really ever want, and I read the passage about getting the other woman's phone number to imply that most of the times he just got numbers to boost his ego and make Celestial jealous but that sometimes it went beyond that into full blown cheating.  She kind of just went along with whatever and would occasionally get explosively angry, but she never actually made any moves to make things better. There marriage wasn't healthy.

But I also think their unhealthy marriage, eventual breakup, and recoupling with other people was an interesting contrast to Roy's parents exceptionally loving and devoted marriage, Celestial's parent's marriage that started as an affair (and her father speaking so awfully to her at Thanksgiving about her relationship with Dre, especially considering his own history), and Dre's parents marriage where Dre's father left and had the family/marriage that Dre didn't get to live in and experience but so desperately wants.

It also didn't surprise me that Celestial got with Dre, because he was clearly always into her even before she got with Roy.

[MrsAxilla]

I ended up really liking this book but it was kind of a journey - lol. I only knew the outline of what it was about and had preconceived notions of where it would go. I didn’t connect with the characters or their marriage before Roy was abruptly convicted, and the entire time he was in prison we only learned what they chose to share with each other in letters. In retrospect this was a great technique because we had almost the same information about Roy and Celestial as they had about each other, KWIM? We all catch up together when he’s abruptly released, and that’s where the real story begins.

I caught some strong feminist themes from the men - despite Roy’s philandering, he came to understand consent the most clearly, and Andre recognized Celestial’s autonomy even more than she did.

The bottom line is that she doesn’t belong to you. She never belonged to you. She was your wife, yeah. But she didn’t belong to you. If you can’t understand that, kick my ass and get it over with.

Celestial felt the most flat and powerless. Even though she obviously held all the cards, she either didn’t recognize it or wouldn’t own it.  I tend to think it’s the former, because she says, 

Yes means yes and no means no, but what is the meaning of silence?
......

“Not in there.” He ignored me, leading me as though we were dancing. Some things were as unavoidable as the tide.

But rather than being annoyed at her helplessness, I think it highlights how untenable the entire situation was for all of them.  When we were in junior high, my step-sister was unfairly caught up in a nasty custody battle, and I remember her sobbing to me and begging for someone to “tell me what to do!  Just tell me the right thing to do and I’ll do it, just tell me what to do!” That’s how I imagine Celestial must feel. Every option sucks and comes with its own set of guilt and baggage.

**i finally learned to quote on kindle!!!

[redwino]

I'm going to post before reading all of the replies.

I really enjoyed the book after hesitation about reading it. I loved and hated all three main characters at some point. Ultimately, I was happy with the ending.

I don't think Celestial and Roy would have made it more than 3 years if he never would have gone to prison. They married because marriage was the next thing on their lists of things to do as middle class black people. He needed a wife he could sit down as a sign of accomplishment and she needed a husband because it was expected of her.

I believe the race of the accuser wasn't mentioned to show that it is the criminal justice system that is racist and not simply some people involved in it. It doesn't matter who accused Roy or wht the crime was, he never had a chance.

I found it interesting that Celestial didn't truly have anything of her own. The doll idea came from her aunt, the store idea came from Roy, and her home was gifted by her parents. People described her as being this free-thinking, outspoken, independent woman, yet she had a very hard time expressing herself to Roy and made few independent decisions. So much of her life just happened to her and went along with it.

[litskispeciality]

Thanks for keeping discussions alive! I haven't had time to read the responses. I just finished the book last night, I liked it. It started strong, kind of trailed off, finished pretty good. Overall I liked the story, but not as much as I thought I would.

I like the author's writing style in that you can make me like or hate a character. I went back and forth on Roy. I was emotionally upset when he felt like he could have his way with Celestial because she was his wife (after he got out of jail).

I'm not from the south, so I don't know enough about southern values. Some of it was hard for me, so focused on the baby, although I'm glad that in the end they acknowledged that you shouldn't have a baby just to save your marriage etc. I do get that pressure though, believe me I'm not good enough for my husbands family because I won't have a baby. I felt like Celestial was blessed with what I believe can be old fashioned southern values, her husband works she stays home, but she didn't want that. She kind of drove me crazy though, she wasn't invested. I don't know if she was right or wrong to give up on Roy in jail, I guess if she really loved him from the beginning she'd want to stay with him. On the other hand I guess I could see why after that long she didn't want to stay married.