Help me Address Something DS Did

[mustardseed2007]

I got a call from the Dean at DS' school that was to tell me that DS has been calling a little girl fat. The child's mom brought the issue to the school's attention. They called him into the office and he admitted it.



The Dean said he's also been writing the little girl letters because he likes her. He denied doing that, but the little girl has been saving the letters in a box b/c she was flattered. The mom also brought this to the dean's attention.

The dean said she thinks the fat comments were being made because he wasn't getting the attention he wanted from the little girl. This is her conjecture, but, if that's right, then this makes it bad in a more complicated way I guess.


They then brought the little girl in and DS apologized to the little girl and the counselor is talking to them about "how to be friends." 


Of course he's going to be punished at home. I'm so angry with him!!
What else? Do I reach out to the mom here and apologize? That's what I feel like doing given that our school is such a small community. There's only 10 kids in his class. Or is that crossing a line? Does the note thing change the way you'd address it?

Also they didn't tell me who the little girl is but DS will, I know.  

[waverly]

I would have a discussion with him on why we don't call people fat- talking about body image and making people feel bad- things like that.  really emphasize it too because we had an issue with DS that when I was casual with him he kept doing it, but when I took him aside and told him he was acting super creepy and could get in major trouble and stop immediately and I really emphasized the creepy inappropriate aspect it set in more.  He was older though (7) and was doing things that were coming from a potty humor point of view- him not really realizing the full impact of what he was doing (slapping butts like in sports, but girls butts).  After we had that discussion he stopped.  But it took that seriousness for him to stop thinking it was a joke.  

I don't feel like the writing notes because he likes her is really appropriate and would tell him to stop doing that. We have an issue right now with a boy saying he is going to marry everyone. On one hand he is super sweet and cute. On the other hand it is not really appropriate for Kindergarten (although I know it happens) and is causing issues with her other friends. And I think the boy is taking it a bit too far. Maybe this is coloring it for me, but the boys I knew that did that when I was growing up were always massive flirts/ charmers at all ages, and it isn't a characteristic I want to encourage.

I don't apologize to other moms for things that happen at school or daycare. I don't bring it up and they don't bring it up kind of an unspoken rule. If it happened in front of us, then I would apologize, but at school/ daycare/ aftercare I trust the school and each parent to take care of it.  Well, the good parents that would address it anyway.  

[mustardseed2007]

waverly, thanks. DS is 7, FWIW.

I agree with you 100 about the notes, too. I mean, DS is sweet and not a creep, but I think this behavior is creepy behavior and also like...you know the general antiquated idea of boys being mean to girls they like is completely not ok with me, it's nothing we want to perpetuate.

The fat aspect is the part that I just feel so terrible that he did that to some poor girl. It's making me want to say something when I normally never would. But the note aspect....brings it back to a "what would I say, better to not say anything" kind of area, which maybe is where I should be anyway.

[2chatter]

The insult as attention seeking is what I would focus on most. Current culture glorifies this in a million ways and it drives me insane.

I would role play appropriate ways to seek attention, talk about rejection and accepting it, role play things to do when we are hurt that don’t involve retaliation and probably plant the seed that notes aren’t bad - and maybe he could write one with an apology sometime, and talk through what he might expect in response to such a note (ranging from no response to it’s okay to hostility etc).

[traveltheworld]

Did he use the word to be intentionally hurtful? Is there any chance that this was misinterpreted by the counselor/teacher? I would talk to him first and see why he chose that word in particular. DS has used the word "fat" in relations to my mom on a few occasions when he was younger, but he honestly thought it wasn't that different than calling a cat / bear fat. Now I know that's probably not the case with your DS as he is older, but maybe hear him out first.

My view on punishment would depend on what his response is.

And how extensive are these letters? Are they friends? There's a little girl in DS's class that has given him a dozen+ drawings/letters over the past few months. Everyone in the class knows she has a huge crush on him. Since they don't bother DS, I don't think much of it.

[waverly]

Apr 24, 2019 16:07:44 GMT -5 mustardseed2007 said:

waverly , thanks. DS is 7, FWIW.

I agree with you 100 about the notes, too. I mean, DS is sweet and not a creep, but I think this behavior is creepy behavior and also like...you know the general antiquated idea of boys being mean to girls they like is completely not ok with me, it's nothing we want to perpetuate.

The fat aspect is the part that I just feel so terrible that he did that to some poor girl. It's making me want to say something when I normally never would. But the note aspect....brings it back to a "what would I say, better to not say anything" kind of area, which maybe is where I should be anyway.

Same here.  DS is super sweet and nice and not a creep.  But his behavior was creepy.  Here I am like we are in the middle of the Me Too movement, and DS has a list already of women he has touched inappropriately.  All my co-workers laughed when I told them, I mean there are elements of funny in his potty humor, but NO.  Just NO.  DS has to learn explicitly this is not OK. It's all part of consent IMO, and I have been working on it with him.

Obviously no consent issues with your DS, but yes attention seeking like 2chatter said which can trend into the creepy for boys.  A lot of it is the social skills aspect too, I think.  And some kids don't pick up on that intuitively and have to be taught directly.  

And all kids act out meanly I think and say things they shouldn't to 1. see what would happen 2. make themselves feel better 3. Get attention.  Maybe something like the bucket filler book would be good here.  Other ways to get attention and feel better in a positive way.  

I would focus more on education than punishment per se. 

[mommyatty]

This to me frankly isn’t that huge of a deal. Yes you absolutely should tell him the behavior is absolutely unacceptable, and explain that calling people fat or ugly or anything else meant to hurt their feelings is not okay under any circumstances. But he’s 7. Seven year olds do stupid stuff. Our job is to tell them why it’s stupid and to teach them not to do it again. Your kid wanted to get a rise out of this girl, and he got way more of a reaction than he bargained for. He needs to be taught that if someone doesn’t want to play with him or talk to him or whatever, they don’t have to. That’s a hard lesson to learn, especially in an environment where there are literally only 9 people to socialize with.

[186momx]

DD gets notes off and on and they annoy her but are pretty harmless. They are like "your cute", "I like you with a heart", or I love you with hearts. What drove DD nuts were that they weren't signed and were given anonymously so she didn't know who and that is the part that bugged her. Did the Dean tell you what the notes said? Does the school teach social skills in class? Ours does and when things like this come up they tend to dig in and spend more time on social skills in class.

[sdlaura]

I agree that this is not a huge deal and should be just a normal learning experience. I’d just talk to him about - We don’t call people fat, it’s not cool to be mean to someone just because they don’t like you as much as you like them, etc. I’d probably reach out to the other mom if I knew her, just to avoid future awkwardness. I bet he’s already gotten a strong message that this isn’t cool by the dean being involved, I’d just make sure he understands why it’s not cool.

[mustardseed2007]

After talking to him and figuring out who it is, part of what I know the sensitivity is that the little girl is over weight, which is what I kind of expected. As someone who has been overweight or dieting basically my whole life, it really makes me upset for her and her mom.

I think DS knew he was calling her a name for sure, but he didn't realize it was a loaded term. For instance other kids call him baby b/c he's very small, and he SAYS he doesn't take it personally b/c they're just making a joke.

He continues to deny he is writing her notes. He says he definitely likes her as a friend, but he just said he likes her because another boy L has paired him with her. He says L is a "match maker." L himself is paired with at least 2 other girls, this boy P is paired with a couple girls, and boy E is also paired up.

It's a game they're playing and DS is along for the ride, at least from his description. I really do believe that because generally speaking he's less mature than most of his class. The note writing thing surprised me b/c it seems mature for him, but I do know that kind of thing can creep up on parents too, so I'm not ruling it out. But it makes me wonder if another kid is writing her notes?

I think I'm not going to try to figure that out, although I might talk to the school about their lunch room match making game he told me about...

[ECB]

Apr 24, 2019 16:50:18 GMT -5 mommyatty said:

This to me frankly isn’t that huge of a deal. Yes you absolutely should tell him the behavior is absolutely unacceptable, and explain that calling people fat or ugly or anything else meant to hurt their feelings is not okay under any circumstances. But he’s 7. Seven year olds do stupid stuff. Our job is to tell them why it’s stupid and to teach them not to do it again. Your kid wanted to get a rise out of this girl, and he got way more of a reaction than he bargained for. He needs to be taught that if someone doesn’t want to play with him or talk to him or whatever, they don’t have to. That’s a hard lesson to learn, especially in an environment where there are literally only 9 people to socialize with.

This is where I fall, and especially the bolded.  Our kids are going to make mistakes.  It's our job to help them work through the mistakes and understand WHY it was a mistake.  I wouldn't punish him over this. 

As much as we're aware of issues like body shaming, consent, etc - our kids are not going to get it right out of the gate, even if we've talked to them about it.  sometimes it takes action (mistakes) to fully understand why something is wrong.  This is going to happen over and over and over in their young lives.

Remember - their brains are still developing!  What we understand and how we see things isn't going to be the same for them. We can't place adult standards on them and just expect them to "get it". 

[justcheckingin73]

I probably wouldn’t focus so much on him calling her fat. He could have easily called her ugly, made fun of her glasses, clothes, etc. even saying that someone is skinny could be insulting. I think in general, not commenting on someone’s overall appearance is more appropriate.

[madringal]

Apr 25, 2019 8:29:37 GMT -5 ECB said:

Apr 24, 2019 16:50:18 GMT -5 mommyatty said:

This to me frankly isn’t that huge of a deal. Yes you absolutely should tell him the behavior is absolutely unacceptable, and explain that calling people fat or ugly or anything else meant to hurt their feelings is not okay under any circumstances. But he’s 7. Seven year olds do stupid stuff. Our job is to tell them why it’s stupid and to teach them not to do it again. Your kid wanted to get a rise out of this girl, and he got way more of a reaction than he bargained for. He needs to be taught that if someone doesn’t want to play with him or talk to him or whatever, they don’t have to. That’s a hard lesson to learn, especially in an environment where there are literally only 9 people to socialize with.

This is where I fall, and especially the bolded.  Our kids are going to make mistakes.  It's our job to help them work through the mistakes and understand WHY it was a mistake.  I wouldn't punish him over this. 

As much as we're aware of issues like body shaming, consent, etc - our kids are not going to get it right out of the gate, even if we've talked to them about it.  sometimes it takes action (mistakes) to fully understand why something is wrong.  This is going to happen over and over and over in their young lives.

Remember - their brains are still developing!  What we understand and how we see things isn't going to be the same for them. We can't place adult standards on them and just expect them to "get it". 

While I wouldn't burn it down, I don't agree with the bolded.  My 7 year old is very aware of what words are mean and hurtful. There is a reason he called her fat, it probably got a reaction out of her and it likely wasn't a nice one and then he did it again.  So, personally I would absolutely punish my 7 year old. And imagine being the mom of the girl in this scenario.  The little girl did the right thing standing up for herself, and the mom did the right thing by not brushing this off as a "boy will be boys" and "i'ts so cute he has a crush on her, he obviously didn't mean it" cycle.  She advocated for her daughter. I would reach out to the mom and let her know that you know his behavior was not appropriate and that you are addressing it.  It will likely mean so much more to her then just a generic "we talked to his parents" that they school likely gave her.  Its a small class and she wants to make sure he daughter is safe and comfortable around all her classmates.  

[ECB]

Apr 25, 2019 11:24:52 GMT -5 madringal said:

While I wouldn't burn it down, I don't agree with the bolded.  My 7 year old is very aware of what words are mean and hurtful. There is a reason he called her fat, it probably got a reaction out of her and it likely wasn't a nice one and then he did it again. 

I don't mean to sound flippant, but "OK?". My kid too knows this but I've heard him say things to friends that aren't nice.  So - I talk to him about it and try to make it a learning moment.

Kids are going to do stupid shit.  They are going to make mistakes.  Recently, there was a post here where the poster's DD was caught smoking pot.  The poster was upset and had talked to her DD about how drugs are bad, etc etc etc, and even still - her DD went and smoked pot. 

This absolutely shouldn't be ignored and most of the advice given here, I agree with.  BUT our kids are going to do stuff that we've "talked" to them about and that we're POSITIVE that they know better, and they are still going to go and do it. 

if your kid ends up being the unicorn who never ever does something that she knows she shouldn't, that's awesome.  But MOST of us are going to run into some kind of issue where we're going to be a bit "WTH?" about it because we thought they "knew better".

Applying adult logic, actions, and knowledge to young children is going to backfire on most of us because 7 years old are NOT adults. 

[madringal]

Apr 25, 2019 11:53:51 GMT -5 ECB said:

Apr 25, 2019 11:24:52 GMT -5 madringal said:

While I wouldn't burn it down, I don't agree with the bolded.  My 7 year old is very aware of what words are mean and hurtful. There is a reason he called her fat, it probably got a reaction out of her and it likely wasn't a nice one and then he did it again. 

I don't mean to sound flippant, but "OK?". My kid too knows this but I've heard him say things to friends that aren't nice.  So - I talk to him about it and try to make it a learning moment.

Kids are going to do stupid shit.  They are going to make mistakes.  Recently, there was a post here where the poster's DD was caught smoking pot.  The poster was upset and had talked to her DD about how drugs are bad, etc etc etc, and even still - her DD went and smoked pot. 

This absolutely shouldn't be ignored and most of the advice given here, I agree with.  BUT our kids are going to do stuff that we've "talked" to them about and that we're POSITIVE that they know better, and they are still going to go and do it. 

if your kid ends up being the unicorn who never ever does something that she knows she shouldn't, that's awesome.  But MOST of us are going to run into some kind of issue where we're going to be a bit "WTH?" about it because we thought they "knew better".

Applying adult logic, actions, and knowledge to young children is going to backfire on most of us because 7 years old are NOT adults. 

I am just saying that I wouldn't just chalk this up to "this is what 7 year olds do".  This obviously hurt her, and has escalated far beyond what normally happens when one kid says something unkind to another kid. 

And the bolded lecture is a bit much.  A child can be held accountable to their actions.  And each kid is different, so lets just assume I know how to parent my kids best and so do you.  And when we struggle with what to do, we come here and share our experiences. Which is why i said "personally" I would chose to punish my kid for this.  Because I know she knows better.  If OP thinks her kids really didn't intend to hurt the little girl, then she should respond accordingly.   

[mustardseed2007]

Well I didn't yell but I took away tv. I just said, I was doing it to help him remember not to comment on other people's bodies. he actually just said, "Ok, I understand" -- no argument.

I did reach out to the school about this game or running activity they seem to have going on just because I think it's becoming unhealthy and on purpose or by accident it's encouraging behaviors that aren't very nice, at least by my kid. I told DS not to participate, but if all the boys are doing it to all the girls then I don't actually think he'd tell them to stop. Of course I told him to ask them to stop, or to at least not participate, but I don't particularly expect him to do that in the moment.

I haven't reached out to the little girl's mom... I'd still kind of like to but i don't know if it would make her feel better or what it would do so, I guess I'm not going to.

[ECB]

Apr 25, 2019 12:02:10 GMT -5 madringal said:

I am just saying that I wouldn't just chalk this up to "this is what 7 year olds do".  This obviously hurt her, and has escalated far beyond what normally happens when one kid says something unkind to another kid. 

And the bolded lecture is a bit much.  A child can be held accountable to their actions.  And each kid is different, so lets just assume I know how to parent my kids best and so do you.  And when we struggle with what to do, we come here and share our experiences. Which is why i said "personally" I would chose to punish my kid for this.  Because I know she knows better.  If OP thinks her kids really didn't intend to hurt the little girl, then she should respond accordingly.   

And I don't disagree with either of the bolded.  The "chalking it up" aspect isn't about ignoring what they've done or not holding them accountable.  It's more about we all, as parents, have to be ready for our kids to mess up.  Because it will happen.  And perhaps I say I wouldn't punish because, honestly, having a "talk" with my child seems to be punishment for him sometimes! 

Which is to your point - we know our kids and we know their currency.   

Now, repeated behaviors are a different story.  My take on this is about first time screw ups.  You keep doing the same shit over and over?  That's another story.   

[waverly]

Apr 25, 2019 12:19:18 GMT -5 mustardseed2007 said:

Well I didn't yell but I took away tv. I just said, I was doing it to help him remember not to comment on other people's bodies. he actually just said, "Ok, I understand" -- no argument.

I did reach out to the school about this game or running activity they seem to have going on just because I think it's becoming unhealthy and on purpose or by accident it's encouraging behaviors that aren't very nice, at least by my kid. I told DS not to participate, but if all the boys are doing it to all the girls then I don't actually think he'd tell them to stop. Of course I told him to ask them to stop, or to at least not participate, but I don't particularly expect him to do that in the moment.

I haven't reached out to the little girl's mom... I'd still kind of like to but i don't know if it would make her feel better or what it would do so, I guess I'm not going to.

I’m glad you reached out to the school. I don’t really understand what’s happening with that game, but it doesn’t sound great.

[callmekd]

Apr 25, 2019 12:19:18 GMT -5 mustardseed2007 said:

Well I didn't yell but I took away tv. I just said, I was doing it to help him remember not to comment on other people's bodies. he actually just said, "Ok, I understand" -- no argument.

I did reach out to the school about this game or running activity they seem to have going on just because I think it's becoming unhealthy and on purpose or by accident it's encouraging behaviors that aren't very nice, at least by my kid. I told DS not to participate, but if all the boys are doing it to all the girls then I don't actually think he'd tell them to stop. Of course I told him to ask them to stop, or to at least not participate, but I don't particularly expect him to do that in the moment.

I haven't reached out to the little girl's mom... I'd still kind of like to but i don't know if it would make her feel better or what it would do so, I guess I'm not going to.

DD1 was called fat last summer. I would have loved to hear from the parents of the boy who said it - acknowledging that they know it was wrong/hurtful and that they had addressed it with their son. 

[mustardseed2007]

callmekd , it feels like a special case doesn't it?


Also, I had been talking to other parents in the class trying to see who is doing what over the course of the summer to figure out if we could put DS in something with other kids.

PDQ, I'm going to poof this I think: 
Not many parents seemed all that interested in coordinating, but THIS girl's mom did and DS is doing THREE camps with her. I'm not going to pretend like I actually really know the mom or the family that well, but we both work and both our kids are newer. She came in as the new kid last year and DS came in as the new kid this year.

[mustardseed2007]

If I sent this what do you think:

Dear X,

It was brought to my attention the very mean comment DS made to Friend. Not every conflict between friends needs a note between parents, but in this instance I wanted to reach out to you because DS was very much in the wrong here. DH and I are very sorry this happened and we are addressing it with DS at home as well to make sure he understands how wrong that behavior is and that it should not continue.

I do think he understands that and do not expect that you'll hear of this again from him. But if it does, please know that we take this seriously and will do what needs to be done to make it right.

Friend is very precious young lady. I'm sorry this happened at all and very sorry it came from DS.

Thanks so much,

?

[mommyatty]

I think you handled it well and I like the note.

We had something similar recently with DD, who is 6 and in first grade. All the kids are on different “teams”, and the teams are kind of mean to each other. DD was on a team with a little girl, who told DD to be mean to another girl. She was. And I was there and saw it. You all may remember that I lost my ever-loving shit on her when we got home. It made enough of an impression that back at school, DD apologized to the little girl twice plus told the instigator that her mom said DD shouldn’t be friends with her anymore if the girls couldn’t be nice to others. Then the other little girl apologized and came and told me she apologized next time she saw me. FTR, I didn’t tell either of them to apologize and I didn’t punish beyond telling her I was disappointed a member of my family acted that way and telling her grandmother that DD has been mean to said little girl.

So my point wasn’t that you don’t hold a 7 year old accountable. It’s that you can’t jump from “my kid said a mean thing to a girl” to “my child is going to be a creep and a frat boy rapist”. Like DD isn’t destined to be a Mean Girl just because she did a mean thing at a party when she was 6.

[traveltheworld]

mustardseed2007, I really like the note.

[2chatter]

The note bugs me — only because that loaded term is more loaded to grown ups than kids. DD has a pot belly especially because she is skinny and short. A boy called her fat. Didn’t phase her. To her, it’s a fact that she has fat on her belly. She’s 11. She scored on him and called him fat. I talked to her about not doing that and why. I wouldn’t over-apologize on this one. I’d probably send a text - hey X, DS was out of line - I think the kids are fine now, but please keep me posted if there’s anything I need to know — that’s about as far as I would go.

[erbear]

I'd use this as a good opportunity to talk to your son about how to be a human (boy) in the world. It's not appropriate to talk about people's bodies, good or bad. It's not appropriate to continue to send notes to someone who has made it clear she isn't interested. It's never, ever too early to talk about consent with kids - that's how the culture shifts.

I would not do anything other than talk to my own son at this point, and tell him to cut it out. He already apologized. I would not contact the other mom.