Is the government responsible for Lake Ontario floods?

[msmerymac]

I do kind of have some interest in this because my dad's seawall currently has 4 rows of sandbags on top of it. My dad claims it's the "government jackasses" if you wanted to know his thoughts.

IMO, snow melt and rain are more intense that what their models stated, which means the plan was... never going to work properly. But the bigger question is - should it? How much effort should be put into personal property or business protection vs. environmental protection vs. accepting a new normal?


buffalonews.com/2019/06/16/you-asked-we-answered-how-did-lake-ontario-flooding-get-so-out-of-hand-2017-plan-2014-andrew-cuomo-chuck-schumer/

"In December 2016, a new Lake Ontario water management plan went into effect, crafted by the International Joint Commission, the U.S.-Canadian agency governing the Great Lakes. It replaced a plan that had been used since 1963.



Plan 2014, as the new regulations were called, acknowledged the water would be a little higher, and there might be some more erosion and flood damage on the New York State side of the lake than there used to be. But the conditions along the lakeshore would be better for wildlife and the shipping season would last longer, according to the plan.



The plan anticipated $20 million in lakefront property damage from flooding and erosion every year, versus an average of $18 million under the old plan.



It hasn't worked out that way. In 2017, officials declared a state of emergency over the high Lake Ontario water level. New York State committed $100 million to repairing the damage. This year, another state of emergency was declared because of high Lake Ontario water level. Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo said Monday that the state has committed $300 million for work on repairing damage and trying to prevent future floods.



Plan 2014, approved in December 2016, estimated that the average increase in lake levels as a result of its regulations would be only 2.4 inches. Last week, the Army Corps of Engineers reported Lake Ontario was 32 inches above its long-term average and 3 inches higher than the 2017 record.


The document predicted "a small reduction of benefits to riparians (lakefront property owners) on Lake Ontario, in the form of increased costs of maintaining shoreline protection structures."



But in two of the three years Plan 2014 has been in effect, there have been record-high water levels, floods and erosion. Whether that's a measure of bureaucratic incompetence or what the insurance companies call an "act of God" is a question that has been answered differently depending on whether one is a lakefront property owner or an IJC official.



The IJC insists it's just because of unusually rainy weather. Those who see climate change behind the situation might agree with Cuomo that this is "the new normal."

Other information about the plan:

www.syracuse.com/outdoors/2016/12/plan_2014_controversial_plan_to_regulate_lake_ontario_water_levels_approved.html

www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo/2017/04/is_plan_2014_really_the_culprit_behind_lake_ontarios_high_water_levels.html

A link to the plan itself: legacyfiles.ijc.org/tinymce/uploaded/LOSLR/IJC_LOSR_EN_Web.pdf

[pandora89]

I live off of Lake Ontario too (in Toronto) and the water levels have been a disaster here over the past few years, our beach is flooded, the streets too. A huge increase in the flooding of homes.

[MrsAxilla]

Most important, NY’s poor planning resulted in my phish festie being cancelled!!

[msmerymac]

Jun 17, 2019 18:38:59 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Most important, NY’s poor planning resulted in my phish festie being cancelled!!

Where was it supposed to be?

[msmerymac]

Jun 17, 2019 15:21:10 GMT -5 pandora89 said:

I live off of Lake Ontario too (in Toronto) and the water levels have been a disaster here over the past few years, our beach is flooded, the streets too. A huge increase in the flooding of homes.

My parents live near Watertown (so like 30 miles south of Kingston) and I grew up in Buffalo. 

I don't know how they can manage it without flooding Ottawa and Montreal, it seems. Like, did they flood yearly before this? It's such a mess!

[aprilsails]

Jun 18, 2019 11:01:36 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Jun 17, 2019 15:21:10 GMT -5 pandora89 said:

I live off of Lake Ontario too (in Toronto) and the water levels have been a disaster here over the past few years, our beach is flooded, the streets too. A huge increase in the flooding of homes.

My parents live near Watertown (so like 30 miles south of Kingston) and I grew up in Buffalo. 

I don't know how they can manage it without flooding Ottawa and Montreal, it seems. Like, did they flood yearly before this? It's such a mess!

Ottawa and Montreal did flood this year, but that was mostly based on the water levels coming from the snowmelt on the Ottawa river alone. There are lots of claims of dam mismanagement throughout the area.

I sailed for years through the Great Lakes but mostly Lake Ontario based out of Kingston. We would have been thrilled to see high water levels. At the time (1998-2003) we struggled so much with low water levels, which is where this new management plan came from vis a vis shipping.

I do have a coworker who was at Sandbanks last week and he said there is not even a sliver of beach right now and the waves are pounding on the dunes. Hard to say which priority is better. So much is dependent on the severity of the winter weather. I wonder if they could switch plans based on meteorological monitoring and snowpack and ice measurements.

[jlt19]

We have these types of debates along the rivers here almost yearly. The Corp will do x to save y, but then z is upset/flooded. Most of the options are no win for someone b/c of all global warming and increased building/deforestation.

[calamity]

msmerymac, I grew up outside of Rochester. I have friends that have property on Lake Ontario and for the last several years it has been flooding like crazy.

Lots of things I miss about living there (Finger Lakes, Wegmans, Lilac festival) but I definitely don't miss all the snow LOL

[aprilsails]

As a follow up there is a lot more discussion in Ottawa/Gatineau about acceptance of the new normal and allowing space for flood plains and removing homes and re-establishing wetlands and absorption spaces for the Ottawa River after this year’s floods as compared to those in 2017 which was seen as a fluke.

I feel terrible for waterfront homeowners who are looking at major losses, but those houses should have never been built in the first place. Many of them have seen floods for years. The river management teams are saying there is nothing further that they can do to prevent flooding based on the weather, and there is no way to build a spillway or diversion in Ottawa similar to Winnipeg and Calgary (it has been studied before). So the only option is to accept the new normal and move to higher ground.

We have a lot of government organizations involved in the management of waterfront property here (Quebec, Gatineau, Ontario, Ottawa, Pembroke, Petawawa, and the Canadian Government in the form of the NCC). No one will ever agree on a plan. I can’t imagine trying to develop these accords across two countries.

[MrsAxilla]

Jun 18, 2019 10:59:49 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Jun 17, 2019 18:38:59 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Most important, NY’s poor planning resulted in my phish festie being cancelled!!

Where was it supposed to be?

Watkins Glen. We were all anxious about muddy campgrounds when we should have been worried about all the water overwhelming the treatment plant

[namasteak]

Jun 18, 2019 11:09:22 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

We have these types of debates along the rivers here almost yearly. The Corp will do x to save y, but then z is upset/flooded. Most of the options are no win for someone b/c of all global warming and increased building/deforestation.

This is why our house flooded during Harvey. The army Corp of engineers flooded our neighborhood to save another one.

[pandora89]

Jun 18, 2019 11:01:36 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Jun 17, 2019 15:21:10 GMT -5 pandora89 said:

I live off of Lake Ontario too (in Toronto) and the water levels have been a disaster here over the past few years, our beach is flooded, the streets too. A huge increase in the flooding of homes.

My parents live near Watertown (so like 30 miles south of Kingston) and I grew up in Buffalo. 

I don't know how they can manage it without flooding Ottawa and Montreal, it seems. Like, did they flood yearly before this? It's such a mess!

H & I have lived in this area since 2011 and it has only been the past few years where the floods have been this bad. We actually walked the boardwalk today and there is barely any sand/beach front left, the waterlines have come out so much. We spend multiple days down there every week. We don’t live directly off the beach (are about 5 mins north up a big hill) and I am grateful we bought on top of the hill and not the bottom because I wouldn’t be surprised if within the next few years the houses on the street facing the beach are flooded.

[pandora89]

Jun 18, 2019 11:01:36 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Jun 17, 2019 15:21:10 GMT -5 pandora89 said:

I live off of Lake Ontario too (in Toronto) and the water levels have been a disaster here over the past few years, our beach is flooded, the streets too. A huge increase in the flooding of homes.

My parents live near Watertown (so like 30 miles south of Kingston) and I grew up in Buffalo. 

I don't know how they can manage it without flooding Ottawa and Montreal, it seems. Like, did they flood yearly before this? It's such a mess!

Here’s a good comparison of what it was in previous years and what it is like now.

[jlt19]

Jun 18, 2019 20:31:56 GMT -5 namasteak said:

Jun 18, 2019 11:09:22 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

We have these types of debates along the rivers here almost yearly. The Corp will do x to save y, but then z is upset/flooded. Most of the options are no win for someone b/c of all global warming and increased building/deforestation.

This is why our house flooded during Harvey. The army Corp of engineers flooded our neighborhood to save another one.

😞
I don't know how they make these tough decisions, but I do feel for everyone involved.

What's worse is that so many of these homes/places weren't ever in flood plains prior to other construction so many don't have flood insurance. I know you had a hell of a time with moving and jobs and such, but I don't recall your insurance situation. Did that at least work out ok?

[msmerymac]

Jun 18, 2019 11:18:48 GMT -5 calamity said:

msmerymac , I grew up outside of Rochester. I have friends that have property on Lake Ontario and for the last several years it has been flooding like crazy.

Lots of things I miss about living there (Finger Lakes, Wegmans, Lilac festival) but I definitely don't miss all the snow LOL

I missed all that when I lived in California, but now that I'm in Philly we have wegmans! And all four seasons, but way less snow.

[PinkSquirrel]

Jun 17, 2019 18:38:59 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Most important, NY’s poor planning resulted in my phish festie being cancelled!!

That was the most frustrating part about the cancellation.    If they had dealt with known problems it never would have been an issue.

For people who didn't get their festi cancelled ... www.weny.com/story/38932793/firm-claims-officials-knew-about-watkins-glen-water-quality-concerns-prior-to-phish-concert

[MrsAxilla]

Jun 19, 2019 10:47:08 GMT -5 PinkSquirrel said:

Jun 17, 2019 18:38:59 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Most important, NY’s poor planning resulted in my phish festie being cancelled!!

That was the most frustrating part about the cancellation.    If they had dealt with known problems it never would have been an issue.

For people who didn't get their festi cancelled ... www.weny.com/story/38932793/firm-claims-officials-knew-about-watkins-glen-water-quality-concerns-prior-to-phish-concert

Oh man. That upsets me all over again. NY state owes us a festival!

[namasteak]

Jun 18, 2019 22:54:38 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Jun 18, 2019 20:31:56 GMT -5 namasteak said:

This is why our house flooded during Harvey. The army Corp of engineers flooded our neighborhood to save another one.

😞
I don't know how they make these tough decisions, but I do feel for everyone involved.

What's worse is that so many of these homes/places weren't ever in flood plains prior to other construction so many don't have flood insurance. I know you had a hell of a time with moving and jobs and such, but I don't recall your insurance situation. Did that at least work out ok?

We were located outside of the flood plain in what is called a flood pool (basically where the overflow from flood plains goes) . We (and all of our neighbors) did not know this since ACOE was not legally obligated to tell us and almost no one had flood insurance. USAA wouldn’t even sell us flood insurance and only reimbursed us $1300. Thank goodness we had enough equity in the house for repairs and then family was generous in helping us with temporary housing & replacing things. DH is still working in Houston but luckily he is a consultant so his company changed him to a traveling consultant and pays for all his travel expenses.