Re: the state school tuition creeping up. I went to the state school, and the amount of resources they are putting into building new buildings (including tearing down residence halls to build other residential) and making all these fancy amenities (like a fancy food court in my former residence hall) is frustrating. Are they spending the increased tuition on these things or are they needing these things to “stay competitive” and therefore tuition goes up as a result? I understand building booms on campuses with the influx of students or finds, but this one has been going on for 20 years.i don’t think it’s sustainable and I worry that the tuition is going to make attending college unattainable for many, even with in state tuition.
I just looked at my and DH's alma mater. Tuition for a full year, taking standard credit hours, and not including housing, meal plan, books, fees, etc. is over $50k (about $51k for the 2019-2020 school year). IIRC, tuition when I started was around $36k (DH just said the same figure). Room and board, brought it to about $40k. I didn't pay that though because I had a sizable scholarship provided by the school. It has increased over 40% since I started attending 13 years ago. That's insane. And, at the time, my mom nearly refused to let me go because of how expensive it was. She and my dad definitely sacrificed to let me attend and I graduated with minimal loans (about $30k).
@@@ A financial advisor once told us to anticipate paying something like $100k per year when our kids are college age. I just refuse to believe that it will get to that point. And if it does, I don't honestly know what we'll do. We don't have $800k to send our two kids to college. It's just insanity how much the tuition prices increase year after year.
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I've heard the same and I believe it. My alma mater is something like 75k with room and board. I remember tuition being under 30k when I started in 1999.
Like many people on this board, I do believe in the value of a liberal arts education, probably more than the average person. But I don't know that I believe in it to the tune of 100k a year. And certainly not the way my school handled it in the early oughts - "major in whatever you want, don't worry about employ ability, we're teaching you how to *think* which is invaluable and something employers recognize as well (lolol), and you can always go to grad school."
As a consumer, I do see how and why parents' demands have started to increase. If I'm going to hand over 400k, which is a lot of money, I want something pretty close to a guarantee that my kid is going to have a job at the end of it. If not, it's really not worth it imho.
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Not for nothing, though, most financial advisors have a vested interest in drumming up this fear to parents. I'm not saying it's true or not true, but they're also benefiting the more you save and invest with them.
Post by StrawberryBlondie on Oct 27, 2019 10:06:53 GMT -5
Has financial aid increased accordingly with increasing tuition?
I chose my school, back in 1999, because after scholarships and grants, i ended up paying about $5k/year (so, about $15k/year in financial aid). This was significantly less than I would've paid at the state schools I considered. In fact, my offered financial aid at every private school I considered would've made my tuition less than basically every state school in my state (except the local community college, which I didn't consider for about 1500 reasons).
Now that tuition is $40k/year, are students similarly situated to me getting $35k/year - or is college just all-around costing more?
One trend that might be moderating the doomsday scenario is the growth of the upper middle class abroad, particularly in places like China. I imagine that many of these LACs will invest more in international outreach since there are more families who can afford to send their kids to American colleges.
I did my masters at a very well regarded none liberal arts college and over 50% of the program was students from China. My understanding is that the school loves these students because the government of China pays to send them and they pay full price versus get scholarships. Meanwhile I was there paying only 50%. I’m not sure if any of this is true but I was shocked when I started the program with how many students were from China.
It’s true and not unusual. My university was and is in a similar position. In fact, DH and I discussed this last night and he said our alma mater is struggling a bit because they have a large population of Chinese graduate students who are saying that people shouldn’t be speaking out on the Hong Kong and Tibet issues. While it should be straight forward that the university claps back and says “no, this is America and we value free speech,” the reality is that if these Chinese students leave, they probably can’t sustain those degree programs because US students can’t afford the sticker price.
@@@ I was pleasantly surprised to see that in state tuition at CU is only $12,500 (sticker price), so even if that doubles by the time our kids are in school, we should be able to afford to send them both there. It would end up costing a similar amount to what we currently pay annually for daycare with both of them in college at the same time. Our kids may not get to attend a private R2 school like we did, but they can certainly get a great education at a public R1 school.
Of course, those spots may also become that much more competitive because those schools are some of the only reasonably priced ones out there, so who knows if my kids will even get in.
Has financial aid increased accordingly with increasing tuition?
I chose my school, back in 1999, because after scholarships and grants, i ended up paying about $5k/year (so, about $15k/year in financial aid). This was significantly less than I would've paid at the state schools I considered. In fact, my offered financial aid at every private school I considered would've made my tuition less than basically every state school in my state (except the local community college, which I didn't consider for about 1500 reasons).
Now that tuition is $40k/year, are students similarly situated to me getting $35k/year - or is college just all-around costing more?
I think all around costing more. We looked at private only when I was college age and let’s say it was around 18K in tuition and they gave out 7K scholarship whereas the state school was 10k tuition and they gave out 5k scholarship so in our case state school was cheaper. No doubt tuition is also more expensive but room and board has also increased a lot. I think colleges realize they can make more of a profit so they build newer dorms and raise the prices dramatically on housing and food. It raised dramatically anyway in the real word. I paid $230 a month for rent to rent a bedroom in a apartment with roommates low cost of living. I’m sure that is probably in the $600-$700 just for a room nowadays. A lot more people are living at home and just paying tuition or going to community college nowadays. Community college has its challenges though if your credits won’t transfer.
Has financial aid increased accordingly with increasing tuition?
I chose my school, back in 1999, because after scholarships and grants, i ended up paying about $5k/year (so, about $15k/year in financial aid). This was significantly less than I would've paid at the state schools I considered. In fact, my offered financial aid at every private school I considered would've made my tuition less than basically every state school in my state (except the local community college, which I didn't consider for about 1500 reasons).
Now that tuition is $40k/year, are students similarly situated to me getting $35k/year - or is college just all-around costing more?
There was a NYTimes article recently on a similar topic that made it sound like very few kids are paying list price at these schools. Even wealthy kids are given merit-based aid because schools would rather give them a discount than lose them entirely.
But even if few people are paying sticker price, that still puts pressure on these smaller schools to calculate exactly how much of a discount they can offer and still be in the black.
Has financial aid increased accordingly with increasing tuition?
I chose my school, back in 1999, because after scholarships and grants, i ended up paying about $5k/year (so, about $15k/year in financial aid). This was significantly less than I would've paid at the state schools I considered. In fact, my offered financial aid at every private school I considered would've made my tuition less than basically every state school in my state (except the local community college, which I didn't consider for about 1500 reasons).
Now that tuition is $40k/year, are students similarly situated to me getting $35k/year - or is college just all-around costing more?
There was a NYTimes article recently on a similar topic that made it sound like very few kids are paying list price at these schools. Even wealthy kids are given merit-based aid because schools would rather give them a discount than lose them entirely.
But even if few people are paying sticker price, that still puts pressure on these smaller schools to calculate exactly how much of a discount they can offer and still be in the black.
Post by wanderingback on Oct 27, 2019 11:12:46 GMT -5
This might be a dumb question, but can someone explain to me what the definition of a liberal arts college is? Then, maybe I can participate in this discussion ha! I grew up with my parents letting me know I was expected to go to college, so they’re all lumped together in my mind.
I am an administrator at a small private university in Connecticut.
These issues are things we have been thinking about and planning for in our strategic plan for years. We have raised a lot of money for our endowment, focused on developing new programs in our Health Sciences and Engineering colleges, and worked on increasing international enrollment.
A lot of universities are not going to make it. Even now we see some of our competitors struggling to hold on.
Almost no students pay sticker price at my institution with the exception of international students.
there are SO MANY liberal arts colleges. I can't imagine how they can be sustained in the long term at this rate. My husband and I both went to private universities but his wasn't a liberal arts college. Mine was a Christian liberal arts one and I think the high amount of student loan debt that many grads have (or low paying jobs like missionaries) is going to hurt alumni giving. They've said that donations from alumni from 2006-2008 are very low due to the recession. And I don't give because of their homophobic and other horrible policies.
I should give to my private school because I got a full ride. But their homophobic policies that have developed since I left will keep my money in my pocket.
Re: the state school tuition creeping up. I went to the state school, and the amount of resources they are putting into building new buildings (including tearing down residence halls to build other residential) and making all these fancy amenities (like a fancy food court in my former residence hall) is frustrating. Are they spending the increased tuition on these things or are they needing these things to “stay competitive” and therefore tuition goes up as a result? I understand building booms on campuses with the influx of students or finds, but this one has been going on for 20 years.i don’t think it’s sustainable and I worry that the tuition is going to make attending college unattainable for many, even with in state tuition.
Yes! The last time I was at my alma mater, I was wandering around campus with an friend who never left town (and never graduated, but that’s another story). They were in the middle of putting up a parking garage in a lot that was gravel when I was there. He was telling me about how expensive it was now, and all these new features they have to have so kids will want to go there. And their parents will let them go (apparently not have A/C in the dorms was not a selling feature). At one point, I asked “where are all the poor kids?!” The answer was Redford or JMU. *sigh*
This isn't specific to liberal arts colleges - so kids these days don't want the austere dorm experiences some of us had in the 90s? Like the summer I spent in a dorm on the fourth floor, no elevator, no air conditioning, and if I remember correctly, the girl's bathrooms were on the third floor. It did have high speed internet and that was magical enough to overlook everything else. If they have to update all of that to be HGTV compliant, costs are of course going to increase. I think that was part of the charm and challenge of going away to college. Maybe a liberal arts college will start marketing "the OG dorm experience" or something to save costs and not go belly up.
Re: the state school tuition creeping up. I went to the state school, and the amount of resources they are putting into building new buildings (including tearing down residence halls to build other residential) and making all these fancy amenities (like a fancy food court in my former residence hall) is frustrating. Are they spending the increased tuition on these things or are they needing these things to “stay competitive” and therefore tuition goes up as a result? I understand building booms on campuses with the influx of students or finds, but this one has been going on for 20 years.i don’t think it’s sustainable and I worry that the tuition is going to make attending college unattainable for many, even with in state tuition.
Yes! The last time I was at my alma mater, I was wandering around campus with an friend who never left town (and never graduated, but that’s another story). They were in the middle of putting up a parking garage in a lot that was gravel when I was there. He was telling me about how expensive it was now, and all these new features they have to have so kids will want to go there. And their parents will let them go (apparently not have A/C in the dorms was not a selling feature). At one point, I asked “where are all the poor kids?!” The answer was Redford or JMU. *sigh*
So I'm not denying the race to luxury experiences is an issue around tuition increases on campuses, but a lot of the discussion around it is overly simplified - and over-reported.
Dorms are an important part of student life on campus, and dorms built in the 70's and 80's often aren't up for the job. Heating, wiring, even basic layout is an issue, and don't get me started on accessiblity. Often it's cheaper in the long term to rebuild, especially since new builds are often far-more environmentally friendly and eco-friendly.
And the parking garage example - I don't know the specifics, but even exempting residential undergrads (who we highly-dissuade from bringing a car) we have over a 1000 grad students who commute and another 500+staff and faculty. We need to park somewhere, and graduate students who spend 60-90 minutes to get here in the evening don't want to park in a gravel lot - or spend 20 minutes trying to find on-street parking.
There are so many important issues to talk about here, and none of you are wrong, but don't fall for the narrative that colleges are just willy-nilly installing lazy rivers on all campuses. Most of us fight for years to make the improvements you see and they are important.
“With sorrow—for this Court, but more, for the many millions of American women who have today lost a fundamental constitutional protection—we dissent,”
This isn't specific to liberal arts colleges - so kids these days don't want the austere dorm experiences some of us had in the 90s? Like the summer I spent in a dorm on the fourth floor, no elevator, no air conditioning, and if I remember correctly, the girl's bathrooms were on the third floor. It did have high speed internet and that was magical enough to overlook everything else. If they have to update all of that to be HGTV compliant, costs are of course going to increase. I think that was part of the charm and challenge of going away to college. Maybe a liberal arts college will start marketing "the OG dorm experience" or something to save costs and not go belly up.
What's interesting is that was Hampshire's bag. Their pitch is super eco-friendly, rough living, even back in the 90s when my DH was there. They didn't update much of their dorms - and my MIL cried when leaving my DH there 20+ years ago because the mods were so shit.
They didn't really change those to stay true to their mission - one that is extremely pedagogically/andragogically innovative. I don't think that was their downfall, but it seems to me that their exorbitant tuition paired with the barebones living experience may have been part of it.
“With sorrow—for this Court, but more, for the many millions of American women who have today lost a fundamental constitutional protection—we dissent,”
This might be a dumb question, but can someone explain to me what the definition of a liberal arts college is? Then, maybe I can participate in this discussion ha! I grew up with my parents letting me know I was expected to go to college, so they’re all lumped together in my mind.
I googled it because I wasn’t sure if I exactly knew either:
just oh I get it. The dorms could barely support the electronic we brought in 1992. And the parking garage makes since. It was just one of those “you can’t go home again” moments for me. Or maybe “get off my lawn.”
This might be a dumb question, but can someone explain to me what the definition of a liberal arts college is? Then, maybe I can participate in this discussion ha! I grew up with my parents letting me know I was expected to go to college, so they’re all lumped together in my mind.
I googled it because I wasn’t sure if I exactly knew either:
Thanks! I tried to google but it still wasn’t entirely clear haha. That explanation was helpful. So I guess I went to a liberal arts college then as it would fit the description. But then aren’t most colleges liberal arts? I mean most states have a few large universities, but then everything else are smaller schools that world seem to fit this definition. It’s just depressing to think that all those smaller colleges are at risk.
Yes! The last time I was at my alma mater, I was wandering around campus with an friend who never left town (and never graduated, but that’s another story). They were in the middle of putting up a parking garage in a lot that was gravel when I was there. He was telling me about how expensive it was now, and all these new features they have to have so kids will want to go there. And their parents will let them go (apparently not have A/C in the dorms was not a selling feature). At one point, I asked “where are all the poor kids?!” The answer was Redford or JMU. *sigh*
So I'm not denying the race to luxury experiences is an issue around tuition increases on campuses, but a lot of the discussion around it is overly simplified - and over-reported.
Dorms are an important part of student life on campus, and dorms built in the 70's and 80's often aren't up for the job. Heating, wiring, even basic layout is an issue, and don't get me started on accessiblity. Often it's cheaper in the long term to rebuild, especially since new builds are often far-more environmentally friendly and eco-friendly.
And the parking garage example - I don't know the specifics, but even exempting residential undergrads (who we highly-dissuade from bringing a car) we have over a 1000 grad students who commute and another 500+staff and faculty. We need to park somewhere, and graduate students who spend 60-90 minutes to get here in the evening don't want to park in a gravel lot - or spend 20 minutes trying to find on-street parking.
There are so many important issues to talk about here, and none of you are wrong, but don't fall for the narrative that colleges are just willy-nilly installing lazy rivers on all campuses. Most of us fight for years to make the improvements you see and they are important.
All of this. All three of my degrees are from public schools and I work at one. In addition to what just explains here, often times with parking and even some dorm expansions, the money doesn’t come from tuition at public schools. We have a few of these projects right now and money is coming from a bond or from the state, because our campus needs to increase capacity in order to serve higher numbers of qualified students.
Thanks! I tried to google but it still wasn’t entirely clear haha. That explanation was helpful. So I guess I went to a liberal arts college then as it would fit the description. But then aren’t most colleges liberal arts? I mean most states have a few large universities, but then everything else are smaller schools that world seem to fit this definition. It’s just depressing to think that all those smaller colleges are at risk.
Not necessarily. You can have small engineering colleges for example that are very focused on the sciences and have lots of coop work or internship experience required. Vocational type schools wouldn’t fit the bill then like nursing, medical, teaching, technology. We have one nearby that seems more focused on sciences like flight and occupational therapy which is a Catholic institution, so you have some more focused on religion and divinity studies (might fall into several categories). And of course this isn’t including community colleges. The people that I know that went to liberal arts colleges have degrees in sociology and political science. Then they had to figure it out from there. One is a lobbyist and the other one works for a non profit. They might not be taking classes in business, pre-law or pre-med type stuff.
Thanks! I tried to google but it still wasn’t entirely clear haha. That explanation was helpful. So I guess I went to a liberal arts college then as it would fit the description. But then aren’t most colleges liberal arts? I mean most states have a few large universities, but then everything else are smaller schools that world seem to fit this definition. It’s just depressing to think that all those smaller colleges are at risk.
Not necessarily. You can have small engineering colleges for example that are very focused on the sciences and have lots of coop work or internship experience required. Vocational type schools wouldn’t fit the bill then like nursing, medical, teaching, technology. We have one nearby that seems more focused on sciences like flight and occupational therapy which is a Catholic institution, so you have some more focused on religion and divinity studies (might fall into several categories). And of course this isn’t including community colleges. The people that I know that went to liberal arts colleges have degrees in sociology and political science. Then they had to figure it out from there. One is a lobbyist and the other one works for a non profit. They might not be taking classes in business, pre-law or pre-med type stuff.
Well yes I wasn’t including vocational schools or community colleges. I guess there is no exact definition? I just randomly looked up Swarthmore as I googled and it considers itself a liberal arts school. But under their lists of majors is biology for example and it specifically says, "we prepare students for careers in research and medicine." So it seems like some liberal arts schools do help you figure out a more specific career path.
I’m just harping on the definition just because when the article quotes statistics what colleges is this data coming from? Is it just 50 schools in the country or is it 500 for example? Are the smaller schools that aren’t considered liberal arts facing the same difficulties? Like I said above I never really knew the difference so that’s why I was confused.
I've heard the same and I believe it. My alma mater is something like 75k with room and board. I remember tuition being under 30k when I started in 1999.
Like many people on this board, I do believe in the value of a liberal arts education, probably more than the average person. But I don't know that I believe in it to the tune of 100k a year. And certainly not the way my school handled it in the early oughts - "major in whatever you want, don't worry about employ ability, we're teaching you how to *think* which is invaluable and something employers recognize as well (lolol), and you can always go to grad school."
As a consumer, I do see how and why parents' demands have started to increase. If I'm going to hand over 400k, which is a lot of money, I want something pretty close to a guarantee that my kid is going to have a job at the end of it. If not, it's really not worth it imho.
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Not for nothing, though, most financial advisors have a vested interest in drumming up this fear to parents. I'm not saying it's true or not true, but they're also benefiting the more you save and invest with them.
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Well fwiw, this person recommended we do half in a 529 and half in a regular account so we have more flexibility over how we spend the money. It's possible one of our kids will get a scholarship or opt for public school or vocational school, etc. etc. I don't really care what they do as long as they are happy and productive. If it turns out we over saved, then I'd be happy for them to use the money for some other use like a down payment on a house or business investment or something.
Post by Velar Fricative on Oct 28, 2019 9:11:08 GMT -5
I never thought about public colleges being for the rich now but it’s true. I went to an expensive private college because my EFC was $0 and I qualified for a lot of need-based grants along with scholarships. And tuition at the time was “only” $25k-$28k in 2000-2004 and is now about $60k, so there was less for me to come up with for the remainder in loans. I loved my time there and my education has paid off. However, public colleges look like a way better value to me now and get they are still out of reach for many. I’m really glad NY now has the Excelsior scholarship and public colleges are generally well-funded, but then how competitive will these colleges become especially with fewer colleges in general?
Post by ChillyMcFreeze on Oct 28, 2019 9:28:51 GMT -5
Re: consolidation wildrice brought up, this is what has happened in GA over the last decade. Dozens of small and mid-size regional universities have merged into just a few super conglomerates (Georgia State University, Kennesaw University, and Georgia Southern University mostly swallowing everything around them. The elites like UGA and Georgia Tech haven't had to do that.) On the one hand, it preserves the campuses and some of the faculty and staff that might have otherwise folded left to their own devices. But many of those schools, like Armstrong Atlantic University which was a minority serving institution, has now lost all its identity to Georgia Southern. Their athletes lost their scholarships, for instance. The economic effect has been mostly positive from what I understand, but the cultural impact has been really negative for all involved (including the schools doing the absorbing).
On top of that, the Georgia Board of Regents has given a directive to all schools in the system to cull and streamline their major offerings, so a lot of those humanities and liberal arts-type majors are on the chopping block. Philosophy can't compete with Nursing.
I left a small private LA college to move to a mid-size public LA university. My current school has carved out a really desirable niche, attracting the well-off students who could afford private education, but their parents are getting a great financial deal by sending them to a state school that feels like a private. We have had to strongly emphasize career development to compete, though, because there's still so much skepticism about the employability of LA grads (despite everything employers say in surveys, which is that transferrable skills are just as or more important than technical knowledge.) On the flip side, the private LA college I left is mere years away from closing, if they're lucky. The higher ed apocalypse will absolutely doom them, if they can hang on that long.
One trend that might be moderating the doomsday scenario is the growth of the upper middle class abroad, particularly in places like China. I imagine that many of these LACs will invest more in international outreach since there are more families who can afford to send their kids to American colleges.
We have one of the top aviation programs in the world. One of the instructors flies for us part time and said that the Chinese students singlehandedly kept the university afloat during the recession.
He also said that program had 500 incoming freshman this year and they anticipate reaching 2000 in the next several years. That's insane. Plus, it is *SO* expensive. Students have to pay tuition plus ground school/flight time on top of that.
I went to a public liberal arts school. I don't think my education was anything special. I wish I had more direction, support, and encouragement while I was in school. I had no idea what to expect post graduation, what type of jobs to look for, or what graduate programs to apply for. I was so clueless. The school is going downhill. I am not sure how they'll sustain themselves in a few years. It's in rural MN and not many people are looking to go to college away from everything, where the closest walmart/target is an hour away.
I 100% agree with this. The only thing that saved me was that my school had an internship program in Los Angeles, and I went there my last semester and was able to apply for jobs. I got one a few weeks before I would have left, but I... had no backup plan. Also, my parents were able to support some of my living expenses for a time. They had moved to a rural area with no real job opportunity, so if I'd have had to move home I really don't know what I would have done or where I'd be today.
@@@ My school was $30k/year when I was there (with RA stipend and scholarships I "paid" about half of that with some money I inherited from my grandma and my parents, plus a small loan), and is now around $65k/year. They have no intention of making it affordable, and I know no one who went there who would plan to send their kids there. Which is sad. My mom's parents went to the same school. If they had been alive, they would have been thrilled I went, and that was grandmother whose money I used to pay for it.
My husband went to an Ivy, and he's one of those Gen Xers who probably wouldn't get in today. He also had advisers who got him straight into a PhD program after undergrad (even though he started out undeclared!) and that has made him successful today. I would absolutely want our kids to go to his school, because it's about the same cost as my school, but with a much better return, IMO. /@@@
at what point is the ROI not worth it? Is spending $400k for a degree worth it if it is only going to increase lifetime earnings by $10k/yr vs trade school?
Would you be better off investing $400k in a kid's business idea instead of college?
Honestly, I think the truth is most likely yes. Assuming they have a good idea.
My husband and I talk about this sometimes because we met at school and we had the traditional liberal arts, residential college experience and we both loved everything about it. But when we went, it was under 35k including room and board and we both had substantial scholarships making it cost even less. We both graduated without loans.
Although I loved the classes, the lack of course requirements, the breadth of course offerings, the small class sizes, and the professors' ability to give us individual attention, I don't think it is worth 75k a year or more. It just isn't. Especially if you have to take out loans. This trend is such a shame imho because these schools took a really great, wonderful experience that probably changed a lot of people's lives or at least greatly enhanced them and they completely ruined it. I don't think the next generation will get to have what we had and that is sad for them.
You don't even need a Shark Tank worthy, totally new idea. $400k could set you up NICELY with a franchise business if you do your due diligence, from which you can make enough to expand (especially if your kid is 18, 19, 20 and living at home with few of their own expenses), or get you a real leg up on investing in real estate (not just flips, but purchasing rental units). You could also take a small fraction of that and fund something they're interesting in making - pickles, cupcakes, candles, beer, jewelry, craft supplies - and see where that goes. Maybe they want to try farming and will develop relationships with local restaurants or producers or farmers' markets. There are still plenty of "old school" ways to make money as an independent producer that don't require college.
A weird blip happened in fall 2019. Many colleges - both liberal arts and flagship state schools are seeing an unexpected increase. It’s too early for the nationwide overview, and the analysis, but a lot of us were taken completely off guard this year having expected a decrease and hoping for a plateau.
My institution - we saw an enrollment increase in Non-transfer undergrads (the unicorn segment) while also improving our admit and discount rates.
My DH graduated from hampshire so we’ve been seeing the mess in the alum groups first hand.
My institution also experienced this blip. But, we're also a southern state school. The university itself has also done a lot of recruiting and restructured its tuition as to be more competitive for out of state students. It's still one of the lowest tuition cost schools in the state.
Yes! The last time I was at my alma mater, I was wandering around campus with an friend who never left town (and never graduated, but that’s another story). They were in the middle of putting up a parking garage in a lot that was gravel when I was there. He was telling me about how expensive it was now, and all these new features they have to have so kids will want to go there. And their parents will let them go (apparently not have A/C in the dorms was not a selling feature). At one point, I asked “where are all the poor kids?!” The answer was Redford or JMU. *sigh*
So I'm not denying the race to luxury experiences is an issue around tuition increases on campuses, but a lot of the discussion around it is overly simplified - and over-reported.
Dorms are an important part of student life on campus, and dorms built in the 70's and 80's often aren't up for the job. Heating, wiring, even basic layout is an issue, and don't get me started on accessiblity. Often it's cheaper in the long term to rebuild, especially since new builds are often far-more environmentally friendly and eco-friendly.
And the parking garage example - I don't know the specifics, but even exempting residential undergrads (who we highly-dissuade from bringing a car) we have over a 1000 grad students who commute and another 500+staff and faculty. We need to park somewhere, and graduate students who spend 60-90 minutes to get here in the evening don't want to park in a gravel lot - or spend 20 minutes trying to find on-street parking.
There are so many important issues to talk about here, and none of you are wrong, but don't fall for the narrative that colleges are just willy-nilly installing lazy rivers on all campuses. Most of us fight for years to make the improvements you see and they are important.
While I agree that it appears there is some loose spending in situations like this, I worked in Facilities in a state university for 5 years. Sometimes it is just cheaper to tear down and build new, once buildings hit a certain age. When upgrading an elevator is 2-3 million, new windows another mill, a new roof another couple....it seriously hits a point that it just isn't worth it. You still have an old building at the end of it all. Preventative maintenance is something that goes on the back burner when things are tight and it does eventually creep up and it hits hard. Another thing I see on campus that people fail to realize is that donors can say what their money goes on. Our campus recently got a huge statue of the mascot right in the center of it. I heard people complaining everywhere that they could afford to do that but couldn't afford more than a 1.5% pay increase. I know that a donor left the money in his will for that statue and didn't want any kudo's or name recognition for it. It had to go for that, regardless of what else campus needed but the majority of people don't know that. A parking garage is something that is desperately needed here, there is not enough parking and there is not enough space. The only place to go is up. (note: it is not happening and students/staff/faculty complain about parking non-stop...but there are other things that need to be done. There are buildings that I refuse to use an elevator in and will walk up 8 stories if I have too because I know the condition of them...)
Don't get me wrong, did that office suite really need to be remodeled? No. But there is a lot that people don't realize until you handle the budgets for a place like this and all of the things that are needed just to maintain infrastructure or bring it up to current code.
So I'm not denying the race to luxury experiences is an issue around tuition increases on campuses, but a lot of the discussion around it is overly simplified - and over-reported.
Dorms are an important part of student life on campus, and dorms built in the 70's and 80's often aren't up for the job. Heating, wiring, even basic layout is an issue, and don't get me started on accessiblity. Often it's cheaper in the long term to rebuild, especially since new builds are often far-more environmentally friendly and eco-friendly.
And the parking garage example - I don't know the specifics, but even exempting residential undergrads (who we highly-dissuade from bringing a car) we have over a 1000 grad students who commute and another 500+staff and faculty. We need to park somewhere, and graduate students who spend 60-90 minutes to get here in the evening don't want to park in a gravel lot - or spend 20 minutes trying to find on-street parking.
There are so many important issues to talk about here, and none of you are wrong, but don't fall for the narrative that colleges are just willy-nilly installing lazy rivers on all campuses. Most of us fight for years to make the improvements you see and they are important.
While I agree that it appears there is some loose spending in situations like this, I worked in Facilities in a state university for 5 years. Sometimes it is just cheaper to tear down and build new, once buildings hit a certain age. When upgrading an elevator is 2-3 million, new windows another mill, a new roof another couple....it seriously hits a point that it just isn't worth it. You still have an old building at the end of it all. Preventative maintenance is something that goes on the back burner when things are tight and it does eventually creep up and it hits hard. Another thing I see on campus that people fail to realize is that donors can say what their money goes on. Our campus recently got a huge statue of the mascot right in the center of it. I heard people complaining everywhere that they could afford to do that but couldn't afford more than a 1.5% pay increase. I know that a donor left the money in his will for that statue and didn't want any kudo's or name recognition for it. It had to go for that, regardless of what else campus needed but the majority of people don't know that. A parking garage is something that is desperately needed here, there is not enough parking and there is not enough space. The only place to go is up. (note: it is not happening and students/staff/faculty complain about parking non-stop...but there are other things that need to be done. There are buildings that I refuse to use an elevator in and will walk up 8 stories if I have too because I know the condition of them...)
Don't get me wrong, did that office suite really need to be remodeled? No. But there is a lot that people don't realize until you handle the budgets for a place like this and all of the things that are needed just to maintain infrastructure or bring it up to current code.
YES directed giving is the devil. And development/advancement folks work their asses off to cultivate those pet project donors into annual fund (unrestricted monies) donors. The oldz, I tell ya.
YES directed giving is the devil. And development/advancement folks work their asses off to cultivate those pet project donors into annual fund (unrestricted monies) donors. The oldz, I tell ya.
Or scholarship dollars. I work for an institution known for giving more scholarships than any of our peers. We are very proud of this, especially given the high need of our student population. We are working hard to keep it this way through specialized fundraising initiatives.