Here’s a link to a family friendly article which shows the tint even at night. During the day it’s even more pronounced because of the sun. Note the open window is a totally different color.
Just to be clear, you're saying he intentionally killed her?
No I’m saying that he dangled her out of an open window. It was a reckless homicide. Like when someone throws a rock off a highway overpass that kills someone driving below. He didn’t intend for her to die but his actions were reckless
I think you need to understand the requirements of the law before believing that claims. Because I don't see that at all.
I saw video of the area on youtube (taken by a regular vacationer at a different time, the video link got shared after this incident). The windows on that deck aren't tinted dark gray, they're tinted light blue. If one is opened and nestled behind another one, it looks darker blue.
He held her while she walked along the railing, banging on the glass, he didn't dangle her out.
Here’s a link to a family friendly article which shows the tint even at night. During the day it’s even more pronounced because of the sun. Note the open window is a totally different color.
Did you see the part of the video where the reporter is inside the room? They are not tinted like sunglasses. Not even close!
This is incredibly tragic, but @badgergirl isn't completely off base. I've never been on a cruise but looking at the pictures of the windows where this happened and video walkthroughs, it would be completely obvious that a window was open.
The grandfather did something horribly stupid and the little girl paid the price. Negligent homicide doesn't seem like a crazy thing to charge him with.
youtu.be/L02isqZiyg4?t=477 (youtube walkthrough of that exact ship in the kid's water area where it happened).
I saw video of the area on youtube (taken by a regular vacationer at a different time, the video link got shared after this incident). The windows on that deck aren't tinted dark gray, they're tinted light blue. If one is opened and nestled behind another one, it looks darker blue.
He held her while she walked along the railing, banging on the glass, he didn't dangle her out.
If we accept that version of events as the truth that’s still negligence. Who lets a child walk along the top of a safety railing? Regardless the tint when the sun is shining from personal experience on the sun deck is very strong. When the windows are closed you can read comfortably without sunglasses
I’ll be super curious to see how many cocktails deep grandpa was when this happened.
Regardless I will bow out of here. Given my personal observations of this ship a whole bunch of people who have less info than me Aren’t going to convince me I’m wrong. If someone else who has been on freedom wants to jump in I’m all ears.
I think part of taking young children on cruises (which we have done over and over again) is making a smart choices to ensure their safety. Our kids aren’t allowed on the balcony without supervision even at 10. On the open decks with just railings as the adults we walk closer to the railings. And in 10 million years I would never set my child on top of a safety railing.
We won’t have to decide this here- a jury will do it for us. So if he’s acquitted I will be proven wrong. If he’s convicted well there’s the answer.
Post by phunluvin82 on Oct 29, 2019 14:47:49 GMT -5
I believe the family when they say he didn't know the window was open. We could argue all day about whether he SHOULD have known it was open based on window tint, but IMO, that misses the point. Was it reckless or even negligent to put her on the railing regardless? Maybe. Maybe not.
Either way, what does charging this grieving grandfather and possibly putting him in jail accomplish? Why do we so seldom see charges when a kid gets hold of a loaded gun and kills themself or someone else?! Because it was 'just a tragic accident' right? The family has been through enough'...right?
Until someone can explain to me why an open window is a more prosecutable situation than a LOADED GUN, then no, I am not and will not be on board with this.
Post by CheeringCharm on Oct 29, 2019 15:04:51 GMT -5
The grandfather showed really poor judgment and I agree with LE that it was super reckless and negligent. But I also feel like this is one of those situations where the natural consequence of the outcome is punishment enough. He inadvertently killed his own grandchild, does he really need to be punished even further? What is worse than having to live with that knowledge? I read elsewhere that he was only being charged because the family was trying to sue the cruise line.
I saw video of the area on youtube (taken by a regular vacationer at a different time, the video link got shared after this incident). The windows on that deck aren't tinted dark gray, they're tinted light blue. If one is opened and nestled behind another one, it looks darker blue.
He held her while she walked along the railing, banging on the glass, he didn't dangle her out.
If we accept that version of events as the truth that’s still negligence. Who lets a child walk along the top of a safety railing? Regardless the tint when the sun is shining from personal experience on the sun deck is very strong. When the windows are closed you can read comfortably without sunglasses
I’ll be super curious to see how many cocktails deep grandpa was when this happened.
Regardless I will bow out of here. Given my personal observations of this ship a whole bunch of people who have less info than me Aren’t going to convince me I’m wrong. If someone else who has been on freedom wants to jump in I’m all ears.
I think part of taking young children on cruises (which we have done over and over again) is making a smart choices to ensure their safety. Our kids aren’t allowed on the balcony without supervision even at 10. On the open decks with just railings as the adults we walk closer to the railings. And in 10 million years I would never set my child on top of a safety railing.
We won’t have to decide this here- a jury will do it for us. So if he’s acquitted I will be proven wrong. If he’s convicted well there’s the answer.
But, what is the point of all this. If the family of the child is rallying behind him that this was an accident and surely it appears he is destroyed, there is no point. That family needs to move on
The windows that open are also very far off the ground. Like as a nearly 6 foot tall person if I wanted to launch myself out of one I would have to find something to stand on. Now maybe someone who was super in shape could pull themselves over the railing and then through the window but Not accidentally.
Wait, what? All the pictures I've seen show an average height human standing at the window and looking straight out.
From the pictures it looks like the windows are about 4 feet up and there is a guardrail, and someone should be able to tell the difference between open/ not open. However, the pictures also show all the other windows closed, so it doesn't really make sense that all are closed except 1, so he probably isn't expecting to have to look for open windows. Also if he is minding the kid and doing other things, I can see how he would miss it is open for the fraction of a second which is really all it takes.
Or maybe their defense attorney. God almighty. It's just so heartless to just assume the worst, to think the worst about a person. I don't care at all that she may have been on that cruise ship, whoop di do. Digging in to a person without even knowing the facts is just cruel and unnecessary. Just offer grace where you would want it.
WTF Badgergrl. I can't understand how you could think he should be charged. Accidents happen. This poor man has to live with the knowledge that his granddaughter is dead. I think that is more than punishment enough in this case. You seem to be missing empathy here.
badgergrl never said and I don't think even implied that the grandfather's actions were to intentionally put his granddaughter in harm's way. But his actions DID put her in harm's way and she died. The legal question is to determine who is more at fault: Royal Caribbean for setting the environment in a way that makes the granddaughter's death unavoidable or the grandfather because he engaged in behavior that put his granddaughter at mortal risk.
I'm not a lawyer. On a personal level I think adding a criminal charge against a man who likely is as much a victim as his granddaughter is cruel and unnecessary. From a legal perspective, this seems to more about RC trying to be cleared of any wrong doing in the eyes of the law so as to protect their own business interests than it is to punish the grandfather for a true accident.
badgergrl never said and I don't think even implied that the grandfather's actions were to intentionally put his granddaughter in harm's way. But his actions DID put her in harm's way and she died. The legal question is to determine who is more at fault: Royal Caribbean for setting the environment in a way that makes the granddaughter's death unavoidable or the grandfather because he engaged in behavior that put his granddaughter at mortal risk.
I'm not a lawyer. On a personal level I think adding a criminal charge against a man who likely is as much a victim as his granddaughter is cruel and unnecessary. From a legal perspective, this seems to more about RC trying to be cleared of any wrong doing in the eyes of the law so as to protect their own business interests than it is to punish the grandfather for a true accident.
I feel like you are talking about two different things here. RC is not being charged with a crime. It sounds like the family is suing them for civil damages. Grandpa is being charged criminally.
WTF Badgergrl. I can't understand how you could think he should be charged. Accidents happen. This poor man has to live with the knowledge that his granddaughter is dead. I think that is more than punishment enough in this case. You seem to be missing empathy here.
Outside of the argument on whether he should or shouldn’t be charged I don’t see how badgergrl can say he was “dangling a child” out the window without evidence of such.
Putting a child on a railing (right or wrong) is NOT even remotely close to dangling a child..!!!
Nothing they can charge this man with will ever come close to the punishment I’m sure he is giving himself every day. I just don’t see the point in charging him.
Nothing they can charge this man with will ever come close to the punishment I’m sure he is giving himself every day. I just don’t see the point in charging him.
This is the same argument used when a child is killed when they find an unsecured gun. Both should be prosecuted.
I'm not saying that what he did wasn't a tragic accident, but it was an avoidable accident.
Terrible situation all around. I don’t want to see him changed.
To add to wild speculation, is it possible that the window was ajar? It looked latched, but wasn’t?
This is what I'm thinking may have happened. It looked closed like the others but when the little girl used it for balancing it gave way.
That's the only thing that would make sense to me because why would one random window be open? And if you're walking along a line of windows, tinted or not, I would assume that you could tell if one was completely open. (Because really isn't it the opposite? Window is so clear someone doesn't realize it's there and walks into it).
Nothing they can charge this man with will ever come close to the punishment I’m sure he is giving himself every day. I just don’t see the point in charging him.
This is the same argument used when a child is killed when they find an unsecured gun. Both should be prosecuted.
I'm not saying that what he did wasn't a tragic accident, but it was an avoidable accident.
But guns have only one purpose, which is lethal, and windows...don't.
Nothing they can charge this man with will ever come close to the punishment I’m sure he is giving himself every day. I just don’t see the point in charging him.
This is the same argument used when a child is killed when they find an unsecured gun. Both should be prosecuted.
I'm not saying that what he did wasn't a tragic accident, but it was an avoidable accident.
Every accident is avoidable. To compare loaded guns to a window on a cruise ship is ridiculous.
Post by imojoebunny on Oct 30, 2019 17:39:31 GMT -5
So, according to the news video, this happened in a kid's play area, not some other random spot on the cruise ship. I think that a kids play area should have a higher standard of care for this type of danger, than something like an in room balcony. I see no benefit from charging the grandfather, based on the available information.
So, according to the news video, this happened in a kid's play area, not some other random spot on the cruise ship. I think that a kids play area should have a higher standard of care for this type of danger, than something like an in room balcony. I see no benefit from charging the grandfather, based on the available information.
If that is the case then I agree. A child play area should be 100% enclosed. Windows open at a 4 foot height with a huge drop off is not acceptable. Monkey children that were a bit older could easily have climbed the guardrail. And could also be a danger to older kids goofing around.
badgergrl lost any credibility she may have had when she claimed that she KNEW this happened in an area on the ship where the windows were "sunglasses dark" tint and 6 feet high. Obviously not the case.
This is all very sad, and the criminal charge seems like a waste of resources. But, the whole RC trying to prove they weren't liable makes sense. Though, couldn't the grandpa be found guilty, and RC still found partly liable since the civil threshold of proof is different.