Book Club Discussion: The Witch Elm by Tana French

[ufcasey]

Sorry this is a day late! This month's book club pick is The Witch Elm by Tana French.

Below are some discussion questions I found on the internet. Feel free to answer any/all/none of them. You can discuss whatever you would like to about the book.

1. The novel opens and closes with Toby telling the reader that he considers himself a lucky person. Do you agree that he is lucky?

2. The novel begins with Toby getting caught covering for his coworker Tiernan, who is pretending to be an underprivileged teen artist. Toby is relieved at having dodged serious consequences, and doesn’t think his lie was particularly important. How did you feel when you first encountered Toby at the beginning of the novel? As the story progressed, did he absorb the significance of his lie?

3. Rather than focusing purely on who committed the crime, much of The Witch Elm examines how many people’s actions contributed to Dominic’s death. When you finished the novel, how did you feel about these questions of culpability? Did you see Toby as a victim, an accessory, or something more complicated?

4. For most of the novel, Toby stands by his belief that he’s a good person. But then Susanna and Leon tell him about their struggles with Dominic in high school, and about how Toby failed to help them. Did their stories change your opinion of Toby? Do you agree with Susanna and Leon that his obliviousness carried a certain amount of culpability?

5. Melissa sticks by Toby throughout most of the investigation, and only leaves after the drunken evening when Toby tries to trick Savannah and Leon into confessing. In your opinion, what about that conversation was the final straw for her?

6. Throughout the novel, Toby’s uncle Hugo is dying of brain cancer. How does Hugo’s deterioration fit thematically with Toby’s own struggles with his mind?

7. Once the string from Toby’s hoodie is found inside of the tree, he becomes afraid that he was involved in Dominic’s death. Why do you think he suspects himself so quickly?

8. After the attack in his apartment, Toby notices that his mental capacities are impaired. He believes himself to be unreliable. How reliable a narrator did you find Toby? How did that affect the novel?

9. While Toby repeats how much he loves Melissa, he often hides things from her, including his physical and mental health problems and his fears about his role in Dominic’s murder. Why do you think he does not tell her the full truth? Is he protecting her, protecting himself, or underestimating her?

10. Susanna states that Dominic’s harassment drove her to murder. Do you believe her reasoning? Do you have sympathy for Susanna?

11. Hugo turns himself in for Dominic’s murder. Both Toby and Rafferty think Hugo was protecting Toby. Susanna believes Hugo was oblivious to her actions during the summer Dominic was killed. Do you think Hugo knew more than he let on? Was he protecting Toby, or Susanna and Leon?

12. This novel is set in and around Dublin. How does the Irish setting contribute to the novel? Would the characters have different choices to make if the novel were set in America?

[travella]

I read this book over six months ago so I cannot recall the story well enough to the answer questions. Here is the review I wrote.

I decided to give the book 4* after much thought. However, it is the first 4* book that I ever actually looked forward to finishing..... the book felt like it would never end. It was such a slow (very slow) read. I felt like I was making little to no progress in the book every night. The book was a frustrating series of a little drama then nothing for pages on end.... It felt like a readers version of wadding through mud. To be completely honest I probably would have given up on this book very early on had this not been a book club book. I'm glad that I persisted though.

I can see where some of her regular fans didn't like the book. Unlike, the other Tana French books that I've read, this one is less mystery and more of a long drawn out trip into the human psyche. However, overall, I liked it. The story definitely made an impression and was well written. The book got into my head. I thought about ideas taken away from the book long after I put the book down for the day. It also seemed to slip into my subconscious and end up in my dreams/nightmares. The horrible nightmares were another reason I was more than happy to finish the book!

One of the things that I really enjoyed was how she slowly walked us down this path and every time you thought you knew the story, she added another little twist and it completely changed your view of the characters and the incident.

Interesting sidenote: I was intrigued by this old tree with a hole in it big enough for a body so I looked up the tree and it turns out there was a real instance of a body being found in a Wych Elm and had striking similarities to crime facts found in this book.

[dontlook]

Like the pp, I read this book quite a while ago (Jan 2019) so I can’t recall all the details. I do know I gave it a 1 star rating which feels a little harsh but I disliked everything about this book. It was long, the story was drawn out for no reason, I disliked all the characters, the plot seemed highly unlikely. It was really bad. I would have DNF if it weren’t a board recommendation. I haven’t read anything else by this author and I won’t go rushing to after this book.

[rainbowchip]

I'm struggling to get through this book. The chapters are so long that it makes reading it kind of difficult! Hopefully I finish tonight or tomorrow.

[aurora]

I started this book a while back and didn't finish before it was due back to the library. I almost didn't pick it up again. I did, but I'm still not really sure how I feel about it.

Toby really irritated me with his white male hetero privilege. He definitely lacked awareness of what other people experience. It wasn't until I was well into the book that I realized that was part of the point to the book. He had never had to develop coping skills, and when things went south he fell apart. (Of course anyone would have trouble with a brain injury resulting from a violent robbery, but I'm talking about the family secrets that started to come out while he was recovering.)

I'm glad it didn't end with an unrealistic, everything-is-all-better turn-around. That helped. I'm also glad Melissa got away. She seemed unrealistically smitten earlier.

I think the Goucher thing at the gallery was too disconnected and the book would have been better without it. I spent a lot of time wondering when it would become relevant.

The audiobook was read very slowly. I liked it better when I sped it up to 1.1x.

[aurora]

As for the questions:


4. For most of the novel, Toby stands by his belief that he’s a good person. But then Susanna and Leon tell him about their struggles with Dominic in high school, and about how Toby failed to help them. Did their stories change your opinion of Toby? Do you agree with Susanna and Leon that his obliviousness carried a certain amount of culpability?

He wasn't just oblivious, he actively dismissed their concerns when they told him! I get not noticing (to a degree, especially when you're in high school), but from what they said they tried to get him on their side and he not only dismissed but completely forgot! And I have to admit I rushed through a bit at the end, but didn't he even contribute to Dominik's harassment/assault of Susannah by spoofing some emails? I may have listed that part, but if I didn't then we definitely can't say Toby was a good person.

11. Hugo turns himself in for Dominic’s murder. Both Toby and Rafferty think Hugo was protecting Toby. Susanna believes Hugo was oblivious to her actions during the summer Dominic was killed. Do you think Hugo knew more than he let on? Was he protecting Toby, or Susanna and Leon?


I am not sure he knew who he was protecting, but I also think he cared about all three of them and may not have cared which one(s) in the end.

[rainbowchip]

I don't really have answers for any of the questions because I don't really understand any of the characters' motivations. Since the book was more of a character study than plot driven, I gave it a pretty low rating (2.5*).

I really didn't understand the art gallery thing at all. And I spent a good part of the book wondering how that fit in and it turns out, it was really a separate thing and more of a side note.

And the incredibly long chapters! Why?!?! I found my mind wandering so much and not being able to really get into the book because I either had to read for 2 hours or I had to put it down in the middle of a chapter.

[expectantsteelerfan]

Nov 2, 2019 12:22:01 GMT -5 rainbowchip said:

I don't really have answers for any of the questions because I don't really understand any of the characters' motivations. Since the book was more of a character study than plot driven, I gave it a pretty low rating (2.5*).

I really didn't understand the art gallery thing at all. And I spent a good part of the book wondering how that fit in and it turns out, it was really a separate thing and more of a side note.

And the incredibly long chapters! Why?!?! I found my mind wandering so much and not being able to really get into the book because I either had to read for 2 hours or I had to put it down in the middle of a chapter.

I agree with this.

For the whole first half of the book, I kept waiting for the story to 'start', and it literally took till 48% (reading on kindle) for me to feel like it finally was done with exposition, which was way too long for me.

I can't imagine Toby being so clueless or dumb that someone he thinks he is so close with, mainly Susanna, is so completely different form how he perceived her.  To the point where I didn't find her experiences and her total transformation believable.  I mean, yeah, the parents were off having their own good time and Hugo was lenient, but I do feel like someone would have noticed something going on with her and looked into it more.

I also felt like the ending was super slow too.  It seemed to be leading up to some big revelation on Toby's part, but if he had one, I must have skimmed over it and not felt like thinking about it because I just wanted to be DONE.

I disliked this one enough to take an long, extended break from Tana French unfortunately.  

2 final things: I didn't realize until reading other people's reviews that this wasn't a part of the Dublin Murder Squad series.  And 2, why was the title The Witch Elm, but every time the tree was referred to in the book it was a wych elm???  Why could they pick one or the other?

[tacokick]

Nov 2, 2019 12:50:09 GMT -5 expectantsteelerfan said:

Nov 2, 2019 12:22:01 GMT -5 rainbowchip said:

I don't really have answers for any of the questions because I don't really understand any of the characters' motivations. Since the book was more of a character study than plot driven, I gave it a pretty low rating (2.5*).

I really didn't understand the art gallery thing at all. And I spent a good part of the book wondering how that fit in and it turns out, it was really a separate thing and more of a side note.

And the incredibly long chapters! Why?!?! I found my mind wandering so much and not being able to really get into the book because I either had to read for 2 hours or I had to put it down in the middle of a chapter.

I agree with this.

For the whole first half of the book, I kept waiting for the story to 'start', and it literally took till 48% (reading on kindle) for me to feel like it finally was done with exposition, which was way too long for me.

I can't imagine Toby being so clueless or dumb that someone he thinks he is so close with, mainly Susanna, is so completely different form how he perceived her.  To the point where I didn't find her experiences and her total transformation believable.  I mean, yeah, the parents were off having their own good time and Hugo was lenient, but I do feel like someone would have noticed something going on with her and looked into it more.

I also felt like the ending was super slow too.  It seemed to be leading up to some big revelation on Toby's part, but if he had one, I must have skimmed over it and not felt like thinking about it because I just wanted to be DONE.

I disliked this one enough to take an long, extended break from Tana French unfortunately.  

2 final things: I didn't realize until reading other people's reviews that this wasn't a part of the Dublin Murder Squad series.  And 2, why was the title The Witch Elm, but every time the tree was referred to in the book it was a wych elm???  Why could they pick one or the other?

The UK edition is Wych Elm but they changed it for the US edition because we call those trees “witch elms” but since those trees are pretty uncommon here I felt they could have left it as-is since they didn’t edit in the text.

[tacokick]

I didn’t love the book. I love her series books but this stand alone one was a bit of a slog. I felt like the whole gallery subplot could have been cut. It was boring, obvious and ultimately pointless.

I don’t pay attention to length or chapter length when I read (I just stop whenever) but I did feel like the book was very long.

Like someone said, his bizarre unknowing privilege was a huge part of the book but the way it was written, it took a while before it became clear that this had a real role in the plot. I always think her books are a bit “dense” with her language and the setting but this one was even more so despite what I felt was a bit of a lightweight mystery (as in complexity).

I don’t think Toby was a bad person per se just very cosseted in his bubble.

[Nonny]

I would have liked this book a lot more if it was a minimum of 100 pages shorter, and the 60 page chapters killed me.  Just... no.  I want bite sized chapters with defined stopping points. The rambling and lack of defined chunks just ruined the pacing for me.

I did like the writing style in general - like I got that we were supposed to hate Toby.  But I don't know if I buy Toby flipping out and beating Rafferty to death at the end, like he was awful, but it didn't seem "right" for the character in my mind.  But I'm also glad Melissa got away.  She was too nice and too naïve, and him constantly describing her as "sunny" bugged me.

I ended up giving it 3 stars.  I might have given it 4 if it had been edited more harshly to trim the fat, and had significantly shorter chapters.

[CrazyLucky]

I'm so far behind because I really did not like this book! I'm usually a person who can't put a book down, but if not for this group discussion, I would have quit. For me, the 200 page introduction before the skull was found was just too long and boring. So many details! The middle of the book held my interest. I'm not usually good at solving the mystery, but in this case, I had a pretty good idea whodunit. And I also predicted what Hugo was going to do. But even without surprises, I liked the middle. The end though... the last 50 pages were awful. I wouldn't recommend this book to anyone.

1. The novel opens and closes with Toby telling the reader that he considers himself a lucky person. Do you agree that he is lucky?  Yes.  He recognizes how privileged he is.  Obviously getting nearly killed wasn't lucky, but for the most part, he was lucky.

ETA: I guess I read it differently than everyone else.  I thought Toby acknowledged his privilege, especially how it basically got him out of a murder conviction.


3. Rather than focusing purely on who committed the crime, much of The Witch Elm examines how many people’s actions contributed to Dominic’s death. When you finished the novel, how did you feel about these questions of culpability? Did you see Toby as a victim, an accessory, or something more complicated?  I think the novel did a pretty good job of showing all the causes of Dominic's murder.  It wasn't super clear to me how much the emails played into how Dominic acted toward Susanna.  Toby definitely doesn't have clean hands, but I don't think teenage pranks are really enough for him to be considered an accessory.  His actions are too far removed.


9. While Toby repeats how much he loves Melissa, he often hides things from her, including his physical and mental health problems and his fears about his role in Dominic’s murder. Why do you think he does not tell her the full truth? Is he protecting her, protecting himself, or underestimating her?  I think Toby thinks he  is protecting Melissa, but I think he's really protecting himself because he fears losing her.

10. Susanna states that Dominic’s harassment drove her to murder. Do you believe her reasoning? Do you have sympathy for Susanna?  I believe her and yes I have sympathy for her.  I don't agree that the guy should be murdered, but almost every woman has been through some degree of harassment and can sympathize.

11. Hugo turns himself in for Dominic’s murder. Both Toby and Rafferty think Hugo was protecting Toby. Susanna believes Hugo was oblivious to her actions during the summer Dominic was killed. Do you think Hugo knew more than he let on? Was he protecting Toby, or Susanna and Leon? Isn't it clear towards the end that Hugo knew everything?  How else would have been able to give so many details?  In the book, it seems like Hugo wasn't sure which kid he was protecting.  I'm not sure he knew either.

12. This novel is set in and around Dublin. How does the Irish setting contribute to the novel? Would the characters have different choices to make if the novel were set in America? I really didn't feel like the setting made a difference.  I'd like to think that cops wouldn't have just laughed at a woman coming in with the complaints that Susanna had, but who knows?