(@-related content) Kobe Bryant thread

[goldengirlz]

Jan 26, 2020 18:41:39 GMT -5 @mrsajl said:

Jan 26, 2020 18:39:51 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I just got off a plane and I might be a bit out of it, but ... complicated reactions?

I assume it's about this - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant_sexual_assault_case

Oh, yikes. What a sad story for everyone involved. My heart hurts for his wife and surviving daughters. And of course his beautiful daughter who died too young.

[irishbride2]

Jan 26, 2020 18:39:51 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Jan 26, 2020 15:20:32 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Yes, if we would like to just refer to Kobe himself... I really have no feelings about that aside from the news impact. I lived in LA for 10 years while he was playing. I still have no comment. 

"There are going to be a lot of complicated reactions to Kobe Bryant’s death but I feel all the sympathy in the world for Vanessa Bryant and their four daughters. 41 is so young. And he had a spectacular professional career." - Roxane Gay

I just got off a plane and I might be a bit out of it, but ... complicated reactions?

He was accused of rape. He said it was consensual. Either way he cheated on his wife.

[tiramisu]

Jan 26, 2020 18:39:51 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Jan 26, 2020 15:20:32 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Yes, if we would like to just refer to Kobe himself... I really have no feelings about that aside from the news impact. I lived in LA for 10 years while he was playing. I still have no comment. 

"There are going to be a lot of complicated reactions to Kobe Bryant’s death but I feel all the sympathy in the world for Vanessa Bryant and their four daughters. 41 is so young. And he had a spectacular professional career." - Roxane Gay

I just got off a plane and I might be a bit out of it, but ... complicated reactions?

I'm a Lakers fan who had complicated feelings about Kobe while we was playing and alive. So complicated reactions makes total sense to me. It absolutely started with the rape allegation and the ego on the court that emerged later didn't help either.

[spindle92]

Kobe Bryant was a HUGE supporter of the WNBA, which I am a big fan of. He went to a lot of the games, not just the LA Sparks but all over the US. He also helped at several of the development camps for the new players coming out of college into the league.

It is a very sad loss not only for the sport of basketball but to his family.

[gault]

I am sad for his family.

I am upset that he is being held up as this saint because he has passed away.

He's a rapist, whose victim received death threats from fans on the regular and dropped her charges against him because of it.

[bowies]

Among the victims: a husband, wife, and 13 yo daughter, as well as an assistant coach who leaves behind a husband and kids. Just heartbreaking.

According to reports Kobe was not the pilot.

[wanderingback]

Per CNN TMZ reported his death just an hour after there were calls of a downed aircraft :/ I guess the police are rightfully so scolding them for that. I highly doubt all the families had been notified by then. How horrible. I doubt that’ll change their practices though.

[bronxgirl]

Jan 26, 2020 23:04:50 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Per CNN TMZ reported his death just an hour after there were calls of a downed aircraft :/ I guess the police are rightfully so scolding them for that. I highly doubt all the families had been notified by then. How horrible. I doubt that’ll change their practices though.

TMZ has no ethics.  They just care about being first and grabbing headlines/ credit.  They're run by Trump friend Harvey Levin and there just a televised gross tabloid.

[msmerymac]

Jan 26, 2020 18:49:28 GMT -5 irishbride2 said:

Jan 26, 2020 18:39:51 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I just got off a plane and I might be a bit out of it, but ... complicated reactions?

He was accused of rape. He said it was consensual. Either way he cheated on his wife.

Well, his excuse was more like, “oh, I didn’t know THAT could be considered rape” and “I’m sorry that she misinterpreted my actions as rape.” So as long as you feign ignorance, it’s all good.

And yeah, his accuser received death threats and was trashed in the media, called a gold digger (she came from a wealthy family) and a slut (for having had recent consensual sex with other people). She decided not to testify and just brought a civil suit instead, and was awarded cash damages in an undisclosed sum, but at the time the most she could get was $2.5 million.

He was a rapist.

[CheeringCharm]

Jan 26, 2020 19:45:44 GMT -5 gault said:

I am sad for his family.

I am upset that he is being held up as this saint because he has passed away.

He's a rapist, whose victim received death threats from fans on the regular and dropped her charges against him because of it.

Yeah I’m pretty grossed out by how many people are glossing over this because he was a sports star and you’re not supposed to speak ill of the dead. The way he died was horrific and his daughter’s death is a tragedy but that doesn’t change the fact that he raped a teenager and basically ruined her life (she tried to commit suicide twice after). 

If the trial had happened even within the last five years, when there’s been a better understanding of rape culture, it’s likely that his reputation would be very different.

[eclaires]

Jan 27, 2020 9:09:46 GMT -5 CheeringCharm said:

Jan 26, 2020 19:45:44 GMT -5 gault said:

I am sad for his family.

I am upset that he is being held up as this saint because he has passed away.

He's a rapist, whose victim received death threats from fans on the regular and dropped her charges against him because of it.

Yeah I’m pretty grossed out by how many people are glossing over this because he was a sports star and you’re not supposed to speak ill of the dead. The way he died was horrific and his daughter’s death is a tragedy but that doesn’t change the fact that he raped a teenager and basically ruined her life (she tried to commit suicide twice after). 

If the trial had happened even within the last five years, when there’s been a better understanding of rape culture, it’s likely that his reputation would be very different.

Also Kobe developed a reputation since then for learning from his mistakes and taking criticism seriously (not just in this instance; there are a lot of examples - two off the top of my head are when he used a gay slur towards a ref and comments made being dismissive of Trayvon Martin’s death and his actions after both were not dismissive and he put in the work to learn). Sure, that’s a positive characteristic, but I think that coupled with time and general societal attitudes makes it really easy for people to gloss over that.

People are complicated and flawed and that’s never more clear than when someone dies tragically. Ironically, in this case, it is also a huge loss for the women’s sports community. He was incredibly supportive and whew, that’s a complicated legacy combined with his history.

[msmerymac]

Jill Filipovic wrote a beautiful (of course) piece on the acceptance of complicated legacies:

jill.substack.com/p/kobe-bryant-and-complicated-legacies?fbclid=IwAR2T5Ky-ywZpPC9T5pRElr0O2ahk4yHCwv30bbWR6u3i4eJul_RdUHgc2e4

"Maybe the reason we care about Kobe Bryant dying is because Kobe Bryant’s life was never just about Kobe Bryant, but about all of the aspirations and values we pinned onto him, and it is for exactly that reason that there is no disrespect or invasion of privacy in insisting that the inconvenient parts live alongside the admirable ones, that the ugly is neighbor to the exquisite.

There is no shame in grieving the end of a human life; it is good to feel, especially for the people who knew and loved the person who died. No matter how painful or complicated a person’s legacy, considering their death with softness and grace calls on us to draw from the best parts of ourselves.

That same work of compassion also calls on us to remember that no person is an island. All of our lives leave ripples. Some lives are tsunamis. Compassion is not summarizing the beauty of the wave; it’s picking through the wreckage, reckoning with who was hurt. Awe without honesty isn’t respect; it’s myth. Admiration of only the easy parts is fanaticism, not reverence."

[wanderingback]

Jan 27, 2020 9:09:46 GMT -5 CheeringCharm said:

Jan 26, 2020 19:45:44 GMT -5 gault said:

I am sad for his family.

I am upset that he is being held up as this saint because he has passed away.

He's a rapist, whose victim received death threats from fans on the regular and dropped her charges against him because of it.

Yeah I’m pretty grossed out by how many people are glossing over this because he was a sports star and you’re not supposed to speak ill of the dead. The way he died was horrific and his daughter’s death is a tragedy but that doesn’t change the fact that he raped a teenager and basically ruined her life (she tried to commit suicide twice after). 

If the trial had happened even within the last five years, when there’s been a better understanding of rape culture, it’s likely that his reputation would be very different.

I might get flamed but I had honestly forgotten anything about him and sexual assault. When I first read this thread and someone posted they were going to say something sarcastic I wondered why until I scrolled further :/ My SO was actually working on a project with him (hadn’t met him yet) that was supposed to come to fruition in a couples years and when he told me about the project sexual assault didn’t even register in my mind at all.

I don’t really follow sports so I didn’t even realize he had retired somewhat recently, and I don’t remember reading the details of the case against him, so maybe that’s an excuse. But yeah I do think that society has forgotten that side of his history unfortunately whether we agree with that or not. It seems like he’s been well-regarded for many years now. We should all definitely evaluate these complicated feelings and how they impact society.

[downtoearth]

Jan 27, 2020 12:32:52 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Jan 27, 2020 9:09:46 GMT -5 CheeringCharm said:

Yeah I’m pretty grossed out by how many people are glossing over this because he was a sports star and you’re not supposed to speak ill of the dead. The way he died was horrific and his daughter’s death is a tragedy but that doesn’t change the fact that he raped a teenager and basically ruined her life (she tried to commit suicide twice after). 

If the trial had happened even within the last five years, when there’s been a better understanding of rape culture, it’s likely that his reputation would be very different.

I might get flamed but I had honestly forgotten anything about him and sexual assault. When I first read this thread and someone posted they were going to say something sarcastic I wondered why until I scrolled further :/ My SO was actually working on a project with him (hadn’t met him yet) that was supposed to come to fruition in a couples years and when he told me about the project sexual assault didn’t even register in my mind at all.

I don’t really follow sports so I didn’t even realize he had retired somewhat recently, and I don’t remember reading the details of the case against him, so maybe that’s an excuse. But yeah I do think that society has forgotten that side of his history unfortunately whether we agree with that or not. It seems like he’s been well-regarded for many years now. We should all definitely evaluate these complicated feelings and how they impact society.

It's not just that one case. I mean, their relationship was complicated and he was a serial cheater (like evidence of almost 100 women during their time together - it's bad). In 2011 Vanessa filed for divorce based on his continued infidelity (not even citing the case of sexual assault from 10 years prior), but I think it also has taken time and attention away from his parenting too. He wasn't always involved that much with his kids and Vanessa ended up doing the lion share. I hurt so much for her losing her daughter in this, but I think she is probably conflicted yet hurt by losing Kobe - I just think her focus has been her kids for so long that this will be so hard to lose her daughter. Kobe did good in other areas of his life with charity, and tried harder the last few years, (the divorce was obviously dropped), but I don't think that erases that he is should probably not be held up as a guide on how to be a partner and husband (or maybe most of his parenting time for a decade or so).

I'm sure it's still more complicated, because Vanessa also was a young 18 year old when she announced her engagement and married Bryant (who was only like 20 or 21), but overall the loss of her daughter and husband, plus all those other people in the helicopter is so very sad and I don't wish on anyone. 

[yentl]

A tragedy can be a tragedy even if the people involved are not innocent. It's possible to mourn someone who may not have been a good person. I am thankful everyday that I'm not famous. Grief is, in my opinion, the most complicated and confusing of emotions to grapple with. I guess that's all I have to contribute here.

[turnipthebeet]

Kobe was not for me. I don't follow basketball at all. 

But his community is grieving and I respect that. It is not for me to tell anyone else what their feelings regarding someone's death should be. 

I realize that this news and coverage is also difficult for many survivors of assault. I wish them peace. 

It can go both ways. And in terms of thinking that his wife is anything but devastated by losing him, that's a pretty low blow. Unless you're in that house, why would anyone project their own feelings of him onto her?

[readyin07]

Jan 27, 2020 10:29:54 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Jill Filipovic wrote a beautiful (of course) piece on the acceptance of complicated legacies:

jill.substack.com/p/kobe-bryant-and-complicated-legacies?fbclid=IwAR2T5Ky-ywZpPC9T5pRElr0O2ahk4yHCwv30bbWR6u3i4eJul_RdUHgc2e4

"Maybe the reason we care about Kobe Bryant dying is because Kobe Bryant’s life was never just about Kobe Bryant, but about all of the aspirations and values we pinned onto him, and it is for exactly that reason that there is no disrespect or invasion of privacy in insisting that the inconvenient parts live alongside the admirable ones, that the ugly is neighbor to the exquisite.

There is no shame in grieving the end of a human life; it is good to feel, especially for the people who knew and loved the person who died. No matter how painful or complicated a person’s legacy, considering their death with softness and grace calls on us to draw from the best parts of ourselves.

That same work of compassion also calls on us to remember that no person is an island. All of our lives leave ripples. Some lives are tsunamis. Compassion is not summarizing the beauty of the wave; it’s picking through the wreckage, reckoning with who was hurt. Awe without honesty isn’t respect; it’s myth. Admiration of only the easy parts is fanaticism, not reverence."

That was really beautiful to read. Thank you for sharing.

[oliviapope]

Jan 27, 2020 12:54:30 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Jan 27, 2020 12:32:52 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

I might get flamed but I had honestly forgotten anything about him and sexual assault. When I first read this thread and someone posted they were going to say something sarcastic I wondered why until I scrolled further :/ My SO was actually working on a project with him (hadn’t met him yet) that was supposed to come to fruition in a couples years and when he told me about the project sexual assault didn’t even register in my mind at all.

I don’t really follow sports so I didn’t even realize he had retired somewhat recently, and I don’t remember reading the details of the case against him, so maybe that’s an excuse. But yeah I do think that society has forgotten that side of his history unfortunately whether we agree with that or not. It seems like he’s been well-regarded for many years now. We should all definitely evaluate these complicated feelings and how they impact society.

It's not just that one case. I mean, their relationship was complicated and he was a serial cheater (like evidence of almost 100 women during their time together - it's bad). In 2011 Vanessa filed for divorce based on his continued infidelity (not even citing the case of sexual assault from 10 years prior), but I think it also has taken time and attention away from his parenting too. He wasn't always involved that much with his kids and Vanessa ended up doing the lion share. I hurt so much for her losing her daughter in this, but I think she is probably conflicted yet hurt by losing Kobe - I just think her focus has been her kids for so long that this will be so hard to lose her daughter. Kobe did good in other areas of his life with charity, and tried harder the last few years, (the divorce was obviously dropped), but I don't think that erases that he is should probably not be held up as a guide on how to be a partner and husband (or maybe most of his parenting time for a decade or so).

I'm sure it's still more complicated, because Vanessa also was a young 18 year old when she announced her engagement and married Bryant (who was only like 20 or 21), but overall the loss of her daughter and husband, plus all those other people in the helicopter is so very sad and I don't wish on anyone. 

You are speculating and projecting all over the place...

Maybe this is what just meant.

[downtoearth]

Jan 27, 2020 14:12:12 GMT -5 oliviapope said:

Jan 27, 2020 12:54:30 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

It's not just that one case. I mean, their relationship was complicated and he was a serial cheater (like evidence of almost 100 women during their time together - it's bad). In 2011 Vanessa filed for divorce based on his continued infidelity (not even citing the case of sexual assault from 10 years prior), but I think it also has taken time and attention away from his parenting too. He wasn't always involved that much with his kids and Vanessa ended up doing the lion share. I hurt so much for her losing her daughter in this, but I think she is probably conflicted yet hurt by losing Kobe - I just think her focus has been her kids for so long that this will be so hard to lose her daughter. Kobe did good in other areas of his life with charity, and tried harder the last few years, (the divorce was obviously dropped), but I don't think that erases that he is should probably not be held up as a guide on how to be a partner and husband (or maybe most of his parenting time for a decade or so).

I'm sure it's still more complicated, because Vanessa also was a young 18 year old when she announced her engagement and married Bryant (who was only like 20 or 21), but overall the loss of her daughter and husband, plus all those other people in the helicopter is so very sad and I don't wish on anyone. 

You are speculating and projecting all over the place...

Maybe this is what just meant.

Yup. I am speculating - why can't I point out his flaws? I'm not doing this to his wife or even on a public tweet or comments to his tribute articles. This is complicated that you can mourn the loss of a basketball legend while realizing he wasn't the best person. I know his family will still mourn him. I feel horrible for his family, and worse for his wife for losing her daughter. I'm sure he'll be in the basketball hall of fame for his contribution, but still doesn't change that I don't think his athletics or charity work erases all his other character issues just because he died tragically - they are all part of who he was. 

[oliviapope]

Jan 27, 2020 14:21:25 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Jan 27, 2020 14:12:12 GMT -5 oliviapope said:

You are speculating and projecting all over the place...

Maybe this is what just meant.

Yup. I am speculating - I why can't I point out his flaws? I'm not doing this to his wife or even on a public tweet or comments to his tribute articles. This is complicated that you can mourn a loss basketball legend while realizing he wasn't the best person. I know his family will still mourn him. I feel horrible for his family, and worse for his wife for losing her daughter. I'm sure he'll be in the basketball hall of fame for his contribution, but still doesn't change that I don't think his athletics or charity work erases all his other character issues just because he died tragically - they are all part of who he was. 

Girl, I'm referring to you trying to insinuate that Vanessa would be anything less than devastated over losing him.

[cattledogkisses]

Jan 27, 2020 14:21:25 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Jan 27, 2020 14:12:12 GMT -5 oliviapope said:

You are speculating and projecting all over the place...

Maybe this is what just meant.

Yup. I am speculating - I why can't I point out his flaws? I'm not doing this to his wife or even on a public tweet or comments to his tribute articles. This is complicated that you can mourn a loss basketball legend while realizing he wasn't the best person. I know his family will still mourn him. I feel horrible for his family, and worse for his wife for losing her daughter. I'm sure he'll be in the basketball hall of fame for his contribution, but still doesn't change that I don't think his athletics or charity work erases all his other character issues just because he died tragically - they are all part of who he was. 

I think people are specifically talking about your speculation about the state of their marriage and how Vanessa feels about the loss of her husband.  I think you may be projecting your own issues a bit there (and I don't say that to be snarky; I know that you're still very much dealing with the fallout of what happened and I wish I could give you a hug). 

[downtoearth]

Jan 27, 2020 14:26:31 GMT -5 oliviapope said:

Jan 27, 2020 14:21:25 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Yup. I am speculating - I why can't I point out his flaws? I'm not doing this to his wife or even on a public tweet or comments to his tribute articles. This is complicated that you can mourn a loss basketball legend while realizing he wasn't the best person. I know his family will still mourn him. I feel horrible for his family, and worse for his wife for losing her daughter. I'm sure he'll be in the basketball hall of fame for his contribution, but still doesn't change that I don't think his athletics or charity work erases all his other character issues just because he died tragically - they are all part of who he was. 

Girl, I'm referring to you trying to insinuate that Vanessa would be anything less than devastated over losing him.

I got that. I said I'm sure she's feeling complicated and sad. 

[eclaires]

Is she though? 2011 was a long ass time ago AND since then they’ve had two more, very young children. It stands to reason they were in a good place and not reliving 2003-2011 every day anymore and she’s simply grieving both of her major losses and not worried about their complicated history.

I guess I’m projecting but it’d be pretty unusual to have two more kids after almost divorcing if life hadn’t moved on for them.

[erbear]

Jan 26, 2020 23:47:47 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

Jan 26, 2020 23:04:50 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Per CNN TMZ reported his death just an hour after there were calls of a downed aircraft :/ I guess the police are rightfully so scolding them for that. I highly doubt all the families had been notified by then. How horrible. I doubt that’ll change their practices though.

TMZ has no ethics.  They just care about being first and grabbing headlines/ credit.  They're run by Trump friend Harvey Levin and there just a televised gross tabloid.

I was railing about this on Facebook and one of my husband's (male) friends tried to mansplain to me about how that wasn't true. :eyeroll:

[moonriver]

I think it’s also shitty to comment that he wasn’t always a super involved father and that Vanessa carried the lions share of the work for many years. Because yes, she probably did. He had an incredible career that involved commitments and travel and practice and being away. I imagine most professional athletes spouses carry the brunt of the home-life work (along with their staff and assistants which I do assume they have).

[taratru]

Someone at lunch said something about "yeah, but he didn't need to die in a fiery helicopter crash for it." It took all my restraint to not scream at the person who said it. I didn't because people have their own things and I've got mine. Mine is yes, he did good stuff. Yes, he raped a young woman. We shouldn't forget either of those things.

[heyjude]

Jan 27, 2020 15:28:19 GMT -5 moonriver said:

I think it’s also shitty to comment that he wasn’t always a super involved father and that Vanessa carried the lions share of the work for many years. Because yes, she probably did. He had an incredible career that involved commitments and travel and practice and being away. I imagine most professional athletes spouses carry the brunt of the home-life work (along with their staff and assistants which I do assume they have).

Also where is this known about both his ability to parent and how many affairs he has had?

I just feel really awful for her. I won’t speculate how she feels about her husband but he definitely brought about a tremendous amount of public turmoil to their marriage over the years and it continues today amplified by an immeasurable amount. His narrative arc is now over and who knows what good (or not) he would have done to ameliorate past wrongs or maybe he already did and she was at peace? It’s so complicated.

Also my heart goes out to the woman who was assaulted who is likely reliving a lot of pain at this moment too.

[janegold]

Jan 27, 2020 15:28:19 GMT -5 moonriver said:

I think it’s also shitty to comment that he wasn’t always a super involved father and that Vanessa carried the lions share of the work for many years. Because yes, she probably did. He had an incredible career that involved commitments and travel and practice and being away. I imagine most professional athletes spouses carry the brunt of the home-life work (along with their staff and assistants which I do assume they have).

Seriously. My H works in the league (not as a player, lol) and travels CONSTANTLY.  It is incredibly hard, and I do carry a disproportionate burden of the work at home.  I'd be lying if I said there wasn't some resentment there, but I would still be absolutely devastated if he was killed.  He LOVES our family and our son, and is unequivocally a great father, even if he's not always here.   He flies almost every day during the season, and every day it crosses my mind that the worst could happen.  

Maybe I'm taking that comment a bit personally, but damn.  Talk about assumptions.

[eclaires]

Jan 27, 2020 16:00:37 GMT -5 janegold said:

Jan 27, 2020 15:28:19 GMT -5 moonriver said:

I think it’s also shitty to comment that he wasn’t always a super involved father and that Vanessa carried the lions share of the work for many years. Because yes, she probably did. He had an incredible career that involved commitments and travel and practice and being away. I imagine most professional athletes spouses carry the brunt of the home-life work (along with their staff and assistants which I do assume they have).

Seriously. My H works in the league (not as a player, lol) and travels CONSTANTLY.  It is incredibly hard, and I do carry a disproportionate burden of the work at home.  I'd be lying if I said there wasn't some resentment there, but I would still be absolutely devastated if he was killed.  He LOVES our family and our son, and is unequivocally a great father, even if he's not always here.   He flies almost every day during the season, and every day it crosses my mind that the worst could happen.  

Maybe I'm taking that comment a bit personally, but damn.  Talk about assumptions.

A friend’s husband also works in the league (not a player) and travels constantly. I honestly feel like she’s like any other wife/mother. We all have resentments and issues in marriage but that doesn’t mean this wouldn’t be a devastating loss.

I’m a SAHM. That means I handle a lot of daily shit that never touches my husband. It doesn’t make him any less a father/partner and it doesn’t change that it would devastate our lives if we lost him.

I hope for his wife and girls’ sake they have good, trusted people around them to handle this and the fallout. It is hard enough to lose someone tragically, let alone two people and adding to that the global interest and grieving.

[clseale]

Jan 27, 2020 14:27:08 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Jan 27, 2020 14:26:31 GMT -5 oliviapope said:

Girl, I'm referring to you trying to insinuate that Vanessa would be anything less than devastated over losing him.

I got that. I said I'm sure she's feeling complicated and sad. 

But that is still a HUGE speculation based on YOUR feelings. It’s just gross. Her feelings might not be complicated at all. They might just be pure, raw grief. Who are we to say she didn’t forgive him? She clearly didn’t say “GTFO of my life. I hate you and never want to see you again.” She stayed with him. She had more children with him. Why can’t we just say we are equally sorry for her losing her daughter and (likely) the love of her life? The rest is none of our damn business.

I don’t give a shit if people are mourning him or if they are glad he’s gone. That’s on each individual person, but it’s possible to have negative feelings for someone, yet still feel heartbreak over the fact that they were taken so tragically and families were destroyed. Sympathy for those affected. That’s all that’s needed here.