(@-related content) Kobe Bryant thread

[elenaforbusher]

I don't know whether the timing of the discussion is appropriate or not, however the representations of his actions after the fact are not accurate. He didn't admit having sex with her until police told him there was DNA evidence, and then he changed his story to say it was consensual. He did insult her by saying she wasn't that attractive, as well as telling authorities he should have just paid her off like Shaq did.

I believe people can redeem themselves but his early actions do not deserve any credit, if we are being intellectually honest.

[foundmylazybum]

Jan 28, 2020 12:12:39 GMT -5 NitaX said:

At the end of the day, my heart is just broken for all of these families. Ultimately four families' lives will never be the same. I just can't even imagine it.

I know people personally that were in a helicopter crash and they lost two family members. Its horrific and the terror of it is absolutely indescribable

[CheeringCharm]

Jan 28, 2020 12:07:29 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

I think Kobe Bryant left a legacy in sport and in life that was pretty interesting. Like the guy was undeniably incredible on the court for so many reasons and he DID a lot for the game..and not just men's basketball but THE GAME.

Its reductive to make HIS life about one incident.

But, when I personally think about that incident and even the way it's being spoken about here, it concerns, saddens and angers me that at that our society and justice system values men over women.

The system worked out for Kobe. I mean, it did and it silenced his accuser.

As a few people have pointed out his accuser was a well off white woman.

If the system silenced HER, then its SILENCING EVERY WOMAN. And for fucks sake, yeah. That makes me seriously fucking angry. Maybe it's the place I'm in today, but but im over it. Im over the system and society apologizing and covering and making it easy for all men to get away with bullshit over all women.


So, I'm remembering kobe as one of the greatest of all time. I read an article about him today by a professional womens basketball player who said his size, and style of play allowed women something to look up to. How awesome is that?

But I'm not forgetting that as a man he benefited from the system.

This is what I was trying to say but you said it much better. When we say it's not appropriate to bring up credible rape allegations when discussing a recently deceased person's legacy, it silences ALL sexual assault victims. It turns out it is never the right time to talk about these things.

Many women are raped or assaulted by generally well liked, popular, successful men. It's confusing and shaming when it happens because you know no one will believe you and even if they do, they won't really care. Because the person who did it is more important than you. That's just how it is in our society.

[eclaires]

Jan 28, 2020 12:16:08 GMT -5 elenaforbusher said:

I don't know whether the timing of the discussion is appropriate or not, however the representations of his actions after the fact are not accurate. He didn't admit having sex with her until police told him there was DNA evidence, and then he changed his story to say it was consensual. He did insult her by saying she wasn't that attractive, as well as telling authorities he should have just paid her off like Shaq did.

I believe people can redeem themselves but his early actions do not deserve any credit, if we are being intellectually honest.

I don’t think anyone is giving credit to his early actions and I am sure his later actions (apology/statement) were prompted/guided by professionals and done in large part in his own self interest/brand. But that’s also not where it stopped for him and why I said in my first or second post it is a complicated legacy. My point in giving credit for those later actions and his life since then was in comparison to others brought up, who did zero work on themselves and probably didn’t even take the advice of professional PR handlers yet were still rewarded with a lifetime appointment to the highest court in the land.

[dontlook]

This fucking place! I wasn’t even a fan of KB. He was a complicated human, as are all of us. If the first thing you have to say about a man moment after his death are about his rape allegations then that says something about you.

Stop putting KB in the same conversation as Bill Cosby. The “all black men are the same” bit isn’t cute.

[downtoearth]

I was probably the one who all of you jumped on and have now taken to assume I meant more - I never said he or his family deserved this - not even implied. I just guessed Vanessa feels complicated, which was my projecting, and also due to knowing someone who claims she slept with him in 2010 in CA and was helping take care of the kids at the time. It's all hear-say/rumor from my friend's former roommate. So that led me to project that he probably wasn't the best partner. I never said he didn't deserve to be acknowledged for the great things he did, or his professional career achievements, just that I am judgmental about him, and felt I could be since I don't know him or his family. I know he was Catholic and very thoughtful and giving and reconciled after his 2 year separation from Vanessa, I'm just an unhealed person right now who doubts true redemption stories.

Either way, I never said I thought anyone deserves this. And I did try to take him off his pedestal a bit. I get that was the wrong timing. I just understood where Roxanne Gay's tweet was coming from, but felt really bad for the tragedy also. I get I was wrong.

[NewOrleans]

I've been reading this thread... The accident was a lot to emotionally process as it was-- the loss of a whole family, the loss of three children, the thought of parents losing children-- just so many horrible things. This thread is a lot to take in, as well.

I saw the turn this thread took today and wanted to offer this piece as it corresponds to what NitaX is getting at. Obviously, Kobe =/= Michael Vick, but the author's argument still stands.

medium.com/@martin.m.morrow/its-time-we-talk-about-america-s-inability-to-forgive-black-men-c5f40138f0df

[docholly]

He is gone. His family, friends, and the families of all the other people on the helicopter are alive. They are grieving. They are devastated. It is ok for the media to not have a nuanced discussion of his legacy in the immediate aftermath of his death. There are real people behind the scenes that deserve a moment to mourn.

I don't think the media discussing his problematic history right now helps the victim either. Plastering her name/the incident all over the news sixteen years later and having people debate the case behind their computers on twitter is traumatizing all over again.

The only people punished/able to be punished now are the ones left behind.  

[cinnamoncox0]

Jan 28, 2020 12:00:44 GMT -5 heat40 said:

And also why the hell start talking about Vanessa must be having complicated feelings right now, because of the cheating, rape case, or whatever else was said. Like wtf!? You don’t know her.

It’s gross. And honestly I feel that if someone’s first thought when hearing a woman lost her husband and daughter suddenly is to say their feelings must be conflicted, that is hardcore projecting. I can’t even imagine it crossing my mind. It’s hurtful too, it seems they’d been in a pretty good place, having more children after, etc. Poor woman, this is just horrific.

[moonriver]

Jan 28, 2020 15:37:41 GMT -5 cinnamoncox0 said:

Jan 28, 2020 12:00:44 GMT -5 heat40 said:

And also why the hell start talking about Vanessa must be having complicated feelings right now, because of the cheating, rape case, or whatever else was said. Like wtf!? You don’t know her.

It’s gross. And honestly I feel that if someone’s first thought when hearing a woman lost her husband and daughter suddenly is to say their feelings must be conflicted, that is hardcore projecting. I can’t even imagine it crossing my mind. It’s hurtful too, it seems they’d been in a pretty good place, having more children after, etc. Poor woman, this is just horrific.

Right. Even if they were in a bad place, I imagine she would be grieving the loss of her children’s father (alongside the loss of her daughter). Even if they were in a bad place, she could be grieving the loss of what could have been (if she had hopes that things would get better). I am not saying things were good or bad. The only people who know their situation is the two of them. To hint at anything otherwise is beyond gross. She’s grieving. Grief is complicated in the best of situations.

[moonriver]

Jan 27, 2020 18:19:01 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Jan 27, 2020 17:36:12 GMT -5 isabel said:

Honestly, I'm thinking a lot less about Kobe than I am about the two kids whose mom, dad, and sister were killed. My God. I literally cannot imagine losing both of my parents and my sibling in the same day. One is still a teen and was living at home (at least from what I read) and I truly hope she and her brother are getting the support they need right now.

Yes there are "a lot" of stories like this :/
That's somewhat the reason that I refuse to fly with my dad.
He's former military so has tons of flight hours obviously and his plane has certain safety features that make a fatal crash almost impossible (the plane has a high safety rating), but still, I don't want my family to lose 2 family members at once.

@@@@@@

This is a crazy story.....
A pilot (main job was a doctor) many years ago crashed a plane killing his wife and 2 children.
Then, he got in another crash with his new wife killing himself and the new wife.
How horrific!

The woman who’s mother was killed in the second crash is a friend of a friend. Hearing her story is absolutely heartbreaking.

[childofhiphop]

Jan 28, 2020 13:13:08 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

I've been reading this thread... The accident was a lot to emotionally process as it was-- the loss of a whole family, the loss of three children, the thought of parents losing children-- just so many horrible things. This thread is a lot to take in, as well.

I saw the turn this thread took today and wanted to offer this piece as it corresponds to what NitaX is getting at. Obviously, Kobe =/= Michael Vick, but the author's argument still stands.

medium.com/@martin.m.morrow/its-time-we-talk-about-america-s-inability-to-forgive-black-men-c5f40138f0df

My thoughts this whole thread have been on all of the women on this board who attested to “listening and learning” the past few years who expect grace and understanding as they move past events but don’t extend the same grace to someone who showed by their actions and conduct that he did LISTEN - even said so in his PUBLIC apology - and learned and moved forward. He actions more than a decade later seemed to indicate actual listening and growth as a person.

The spin on events is also confusing to me since there was a settlement that the victim agreed to and accepted. A NDA to protect her further. He did pay civilly. What more are others expecting?

[NewOrleans]

Jan 28, 2020 23:34:43 GMT -5 childofhiphop said:

Jan 28, 2020 13:13:08 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

I've been reading this thread... The accident was a lot to emotionally process as it was-- the loss of a whole family, the loss of three children, the thought of parents losing children-- just so many horrible things. This thread is a lot to take in, as well.

I saw the turn this thread took today and wanted to offer this piece as it corresponds to what NitaX is getting at. Obviously, Kobe =/= Michael Vick, but the author's argument still stands.

medium.com/@martin.m.morrow/its-time-we-talk-about-america-s-inability-to-forgive-black-men-c5f40138f0df

My thoughts this whole thread have been on all of the women on this board who attested to “listening and learning” the past few years who expect grace and understanding as they move past events but don’t extend the same grace to someone who showed by their actions and conduct that he did LISTEN - even said so in his PUBLIC apology - and learned and moved forward. He actions more than a decade later seemed to indicate actual listening and growth as a person.

The spin on events is also confusing to me since there was a settlement that the victim agreed to and accepted. A NDA to protect her further. He did pay civilly. What more are others expecting?

I guess I can’t be mad at anyone for not being able to look past their feelings on the matter of rape. I myself tend to be a scorched-earth person and gleefully, unflinchingly burn bridges.  IMO it’s a lot more complicated / full of conflict when the person has redeeming qualities because it’s a fair argument to question which outweighs the other and what exactly is the sum total of a person. As Nita said, there could be room for nuance, but the gravity of issues can make it hard for individuals to get there. In this situation, I personally table any thoughts on him, or assault, and can think only about the wreckage of people’s lives who were left behind after these kinds of hideous losses. That’s not self-righteousness on my part; it’s self care. I can only handle one set of emotions at a time.

Circling back to my first post, of course there is a racial element snaking its way through here somewhere because literally everything is about race. 

[NewOrleans]

However, I hope it goes without saying that I give no grace to anyone who is like BUT BASKETBALL HERO THO or hE diDn’t RapE anYoNe beCausE ReAsOnS or hE maDe a MisTakE. 

[eclaires]

Jan 29, 2020 12:17:30 GMT -5 melmaria said:

I saw this video and just wanted to share, because it's heartbreakingly beautiful and I think it goes to what we've been discussing in terms of looking at the whole of a person, redemption, etc. And thinking about people who, like eclaires said, make a change for the better after committing wrongs vs. people who do zero work on themselves.

I honestly can’t get over the number of interactions people have reported like this with him. Sure it is baby step progress in 2020 that we celebrate a dad loving being a girl dad. It’s still progress and it especially matters when the message is coming from the hyper masculine world of the NBA. Kobe’s support for women’s sports was unlike any other professional male athlete that I ever saw - in big and small ways.

I just really think we should be able to give space to people to grieve for someone who clearly took time to be better and who worked to use his power/money to make things better for girls/women in sports.

Sports aren’t everything and I don’t want to minimize any damage he did, especially to the young woman in Colorado or the personal tragedy this is for his family, but three days after his death and the more I see, I really do think it is not hyperbole to say it is a tragedy his support for girls and women’s sports was lost at this juncture. I hope that other retired and current NBA players consider picking up their own support in his and Gigi’s honor, specifically for the WNBA and women’s college basketball.

[childofhiphop]

Jan 29, 2020 6:39:46 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

However, I hope it goes without saying that I give no grace to anyone who is like BUT BASKETBALL HERO THO or hE diDn’t RapE anYoNe beCausE ReAsOnS or hE maDe a MisTakE. 

Yup. I completely agree with this. Foolishness.

My point was agreeing with the article that it is harder for POC to rebound in life even when they’ve paid for their crimes and turned around according to the systems in place in this country.

[somersault72]

I can understand not only the victim of his assault and other victims feeling triggered during this time. I genuinely think when he knew better, he did better, but I also know something like sexual assault can change a person's life forever. My heart breaks for his wife and surviving daughters, as well as the families of the others in the crash. Love him or loathe him, I think this tragedy has made many of us, myself included remember just how fragile and uncertain life is.

[dontlook]

I think this reporter got it right. I hope the link works.

youtu.be/VFT5485mRB0

[AAM2012]

Vanessa broke her silence.


www.si.com/nba/2020/01/30/vanessa-bryant-speaks-deaths-kobe-gianna

Also their foundation has set up a fund set up to help the other families.