We already have Britax Frontier/Pioneer highback boosters from DS waiting for DD. I guess the difference is they seem more like a seat and DD could probably crawl in more easily. But she's like the size of a large 2 yr old....so I'm in no rush to move her into those.
I do think some of the FF-only seat have higher height limits, but really I don't think there's much of a difference. FF only seats are generally a little slimmer and I agree easier to crawl into. Also--they're usually cheaper.
Thats nuts that side impact isnt tested in the US. I just checked the Government of Canada website to confirm, and thankfully they do. I guess this explains why so many carseats available in the US are not available here in Canada.
I feel like I should now see what's on the market in Canada.
This is how its tested here. Safety testing on any baby and childrens items are much more strict here for all items, not just car seats. I know strollers here have to meet guidelines and items like the dockatot are banned all together here.
We already have Britax Frontier/Pioneer highback boosters from DS waiting for DD. I guess the difference is they seem more like a seat and DD could probably crawl in more easily. But she's like the size of a large 2 yr old....so I'm in no rush to move her into those.
It really just depends on the seat and your kid's build.
Convertibles are nice because they can be RF or FF. Many can be used from birth, so many people are able to use them for a long time. Combination seats like you're talking about bridge a gap where maybe you don't want to use a convertible (often because passing it down to a younger child, or because it is very large) but your child isn't ready for a booster yet. If you and your child are happy with your convertible, then stick with it until she outgrows it. Then reassess from there what your needs are. Yall may be ready to straight to a dedicated booster, which are usually cheaper than combination seats.
I agree with everything everyone is saying, but I'd like to add...that maybe these companies could make car seats a little more user friendly. I am fortunate that I have the time, money, education, etc. to properly research, purchase, install, and put my kid into a car seat, but I realize this is not the norm. Like...why are there so many rules and why are the car seats so difficult to get properly positioned. And then they sell all these accessories, but don't tell people they're actually not safe. What we need is someone to invent a car seat that you don't need to be Einstein to figure out. Basically a car seat for idiots. I doubt most people know the height and weight limits of their seat in each mode.
Even my SIL who is pretty in touch with things had my nephew in his infant bucket seat when he had clearly outgrown it. When I asked why she said "well---the bucket seat is the safest so we're going to use it as long as he fits". I pointed out that he's probably outgrown it by height and it's no longer safe. She also flipped him FF right at 3 saying he had no room for his long legs, but that's not actually why you would flip him. That would be for height or weight.
I don't know. DS1 is still RFing at 3.25. I will say it's getting really annoying and I'm about ready to flip him. He always wants to get in by himself and it's a big messy ordeal and then he pulls on the headrest of the carseat to get himself in, but it's made out of styrafoam so I'm worried he's going to break the headrest. Would be much easier to FF at this point I think. I'm definitely doing it by June when I move DS2 from his bucket to DS1's seat.
110% agree with this! There is so much misinformation about how to safely install car seats, it blows my mind. When I posted in a nanny forum local to our area that I was looking for a CPST to come to our house and assist with car seat installation, so many people said to just go to the local fire station - but our firefighters aren’t trained in installations, so they’re no better than me just winging it.
We actually helped cover the costs for our nanny to become a certified CPST so that we’d have someone double-checking the car seat installation for our kids because even when we had a CPST help with the initial install I still didn’t know when to think about things like adjusting straps. I realize that’s a huge luxury most people don’t have and my nanny is constantly telling friends of mine at play dates that they need to adjust strap height, move up to the next seat (esp. with infant car seats), etc. These are all people who try hard to get it right so it’s not intentional ignorance, it’s just that these car seats are ridiculously confusing to use correctly.
Hence why 9 out of 10 car seats are installed incorrectly. Each seat, child, vehicle, and situation is so different. It's really really difficult to make blanket recommendations.
Those video clips of the crash test dummies make me feel sick, and I don't even have a kid in a HBB to imagine moving like that. DD is in a FFing seat, but at 32 lb. she's still harnessed with no plans to change that.
Beyond that gut reaction I have so many thoughts.
One, shame on Evenflo for the repeated refusal to consider moving the weight limit from 30 lb. to 40 lb. for commercial reasons. But as we've seen from the Fisher Price RNP debacle, that sort of corporate decision making is not unique to Evenflo. I'm sure it happens everywhere.
Which is why we need better regulation. I didn't realize until recently when we were researching seats (we're shopping for DS's convertible seat) that the US has absolutely nothing on side impacts. WHY. (Rhetorical question, I'm sure it has to do with the product manufacturers' lobbying efforts.) Then there's the whole issue over criteria for moving up to the next stage of seat, and the lack of recalls, e.g. on Evenflo's booster marked for 30+ lb. after they had changed to 40+ lb. for that model. So much anger.
Also so much frustration. I'm trying to figure out, e.g., the actual safety value of the ARB feature on seats. Everyone in the US is all, nah, if you have a good install you're fine without. But nobody has any side impact data to know if that or any other feature helps, and even the front crash test data isn't all that clear.
Finally, I really try to be conscientious about car seat safety, and I think my kids are currently good with their setup. But it is so complicated that even I am always second guessing myself -- and I feel like my kids are pretty straightforward. Two kids, two cars, two permanently installed seats. One household, with parents who communicate and agree about car seat safety. At least one of us (me) who is abreast of how much each kid weighs, and how tall. But even with all that... ok, DD is harnessed FFing in a MyFit with LATCH, and at 32 lb. she's good with that. In 8 lb., we need to stop using LATCH, switch to seat belt install, but keep harnessing. We also could, per the manufacturer, move her to HBB mode at 40 lb., but we aren't going to. So we'll KOKO with harnessing + seat belt install until >65 lb. or >54 in. Then we switch to HBB mode. It's a lot of "behind the scenes" vigilance and changes for within the use of one seat, in order to maintain proper use as she grows, none of which is really all that obvious. And this isn't even an all in one type seat!
It is easy to see how, if H and I were separated, he'd have no idea when she hit 40 lb., or 54 in. He probably has no idea what size clothes or shoes she wears, let alone her exact weight. Not to pick on dads, but he'd be pretty clueless on his own even with good intentions. He'd shop and do the initial install carefully, but the "over time" aspect would not be his strong suit.
It's also easy to see how someone could be confused and think the 40 lb. limit to switch from LATCH to seat belt install, also implies switching from harness to HBB mode, even though those are separate things.
I have all this swirling in my mind as I think about both kids' seats. I just can't help but think that for something so important, this could and should be easier to do right and confidently.
Susie, I'm a (lapsed) CPST and even I worry that my kids are in their seats wrong. I'm constantly checking and rechecking. Even though E1 has about 5-6 pounds to go before needing to use a seatbelt install, I've already moved to it so that if he hits a major growth spurt, I'm not surprised. (Plus Graco's lower anchor connectors are annoying to try to lengthen).
CPSTs and Safe Kids have been lobbying for side impact testing regulation for years. It's just that the manufacturers have deeper pockets.
Post by wesleycrusher on Feb 6, 2020 11:07:52 GMT -5
We have these seats- the manual copyright 2014 says 30 lbs and 4 years old. I got them when the kids were 5 to use when we travel since they were light-weight and I didn't want to lug the convertible seats on the plane. I do remember looking at the seats in the store and most had a higher weight limits- my kids were probably around 40 lbs, so it did make me feel more comfortable with the seats seeing the lower weight limit. Now the kids are 7.5 and use them full time.
Susie , yup, right there with you. Add to that moving the shoulder straps up as they grow. That's something H would never think to look for (probably doesn't even know the rules) and I have to make sure I check in both cars frequently as DD1 is tall and grows fast. And even I get confused since DD1 is FF and DD2 is RF, and the rules are different! I feel like i check them every time I put them in the seats and it is just another *thing* I'm constantly thinking about.
The cost is a factor too. We have stuck with Britax seats with the Clicktight because the install is so easy. I really wanted the Chicco MyFit, but we bought one and we couldn't get it installed correctly, so we returned it and went with the Britax. Those seats are like $300 each (the convertible was almost $400, x2 for both cars ). I think we've spent more on carseats than any other kid item.
I'll also add that certain seats add their own complications like the seat isn't safe without the cupholder (then why make it removable?) or you need this body support pillow if kid is under this weight, but remove at this point. These rules are all HIDDEN in the manual. I can't read the manual weekly to see which part of the car seat my kid has outgrown, FFS. Mark it clearly on the support pillow or the cupholder!
Also--those harness covers IMO just make it really hard to tighten properly so I think those should go on all seats.
Well, I certainly don’t feel great about just giving in to my 5.5 year old and letting her ditch the 5 point harness for a booster. She loved the Graco turbo booster we bought for travel and was using it daily. Since she was going to be riding daily in a booster, I got the Clek Oobr, because of the safety claims. Hopefully they aren’t full of shit, but how would we ever know? At least they’re Canadian...?
I wish car seat safety was something more pediatricians and daycares took a proactive role in promoting. I can see why they would not want to hold out the services of a CPST on staff to parents (liability) but if they just emphasized the topic as something to vigilant about, what some of the issues are, and maybe had a CPST's name that they referred people to. I honestly think so many parents have no clue at all how important some of this is, and that just because your kid is within a particular weight or age range, does not mean that a seat is a safe or appropriate choice. I am not sure I would have a great appreciation of it, but for this board.
I haven’t been able to watch the videos or read the article (I’m still at work), but another big complication with side-impact testing is ensuring that it’s even valid in the first place.
For adult crash test dummies, they use cadavers that are donated to science, and the person was able to consent to the donation prior to their death. By using lots and lots and lots of cadavers, they can make dummies that pretty accurately reflect what an actual human body will do. Even so, crash test dummies can’t possibly replicate all body shapes and sizes and usually replicate “averages.” For a long time they just scaled down the male dummy to make a female dummy! This is a little bit better now.
The problem is that kids can’t consent to donate their own bodies for scientific research, and there are all kinds of ethical issues about parents consenting for them. There are also a ton of ethical problems with procuring child cadavers from countries with different ethical standards than us. So we just don’t have the data we need to make really good dummies that faithfully represent how a child’s body will respond in a crash — and even if we did, we couldn’t easily or faithfully represent all different sizes, shapes, and ages of kids whose bodies are in different stages of development.
None of this makes it okay that a company is misrepresenting it’s products, or lying about the types of testing they have done.
VillainV, I hear and respect all those challenges in developing crash test dummies that accurately represent how children's bodies would react to the forces of a collision. But those challenges relate more to our understanding of children's developing bodies and their responses to forces, rather than the particulars of front vs. side impact testing. Why is it that the dummies we have are good enough for valid front impact testing but not side? Or is the point that existing front impact testing data may not be valid either?
Car seat safety is my soapbox. I will tell everyone and anyone I know if I think their kid should be in something more protective. I don't even care if I get stares. Thankfully it's only happened a few times and I was, of course, very nice about it. But it's just not worth the risk for the possible convenience. One mom even said she was just following the limits (this was when kids could go FF at 1y and 20lbs) but I was so happy when she turned her baby back around.
DD was RF for yeaaaars until her knees were almost touching the backseat. Then in 5pt harness until she was 7.5+years. She's tall but skinny (maybe 50lbs now at 8?) and I always felt like 30lbs for HBB was insane. She was so proficient with the 5pt harness that I legitimately thought about buying another one that could fit her height for longer. We ended up with a Graco 3-in-1 and just have it as a HBB with the seat belt but damn this article makes me rethink that.
Well now, I wouldn't say the companies are lying about side impact testing. I'm inclined to believe them that they are doing independent side impact testing. Thats what the video shows that was linked in the OP--Evenflo doing their side impact testing.
However, currently there are no regulations for that side impact crash testing in the US, so they can't claim that they've met certain standards.
Does anyone have recommendations for a good harnessed car seat that looks more “big kid” than babyish? My 5yo is still in a convertible car seat but I want to upgrade because it’s nearing its expiration date. At first I was going to get a high back booster but now I’m more comfortable with a combination seat. Recommendations?
DD was RF for yeaaaars until her knees were almost touching the backseat. Then in 5pt harness until she was 7.5+years. She's tall but skinny (maybe 50lbs now at 8?) and I always felt like 30lbs for HBB was insane. She was so proficient with the 5pt harness that I legitimately thought about buying another one that could fit her height for longer. We ended up with a Graco 3-in-1 and just have it as a HBB with the seat belt but damn this article makes me rethink that.
In the thread on CEP someone mentioned that the FF harness isn't necessarily safer than your child sitting properly in a HBB with a seatbelt because it rigidly restrains the whole body versus letting it give a bit in an accident. By 7.5 I'd think she should be able to properly sit with a seat belt in a HBB.
broadsheet, I really like our Chicco MyFit for my 4 yo, and she professes to like it as well. It's much more upright than a FFing convertible. I like that it's also pretty narrow.
DD was RF for yeaaaars until her knees were almost touching the backseat. Then in 5pt harness until she was 7.5+years. She's tall but skinny (maybe 50lbs now at 8?) and I always felt like 30lbs for HBB was insane. She was so proficient with the 5pt harness that I legitimately thought about buying another one that could fit her height for longer. We ended up with a Graco 3-in-1 and just have it as a HBB with the seat belt but damn this article makes me rethink that.
In the thread on CEP someone mentioned that the FF harness isn't necessarily safer than your child sitting properly in a HBB with a seatbelt because it rigidly restrains the whole body versus letting it give a bit in an accident. By 7.5 I'd think she should be able to properly sit with a seat belt in a HBB.
This was brought up when I posted about what carseat to bring to Ireland (http://pandce.proboards.com/thread/611126/wwyd-international-travel-car-seat). Which makes me feel marginally better. But then stuff like the ProPublica article comes out and I second guess it all.
In the thread on CEP someone mentioned that the FF harness isn't necessarily safer than your child sitting properly in a HBB with a seatbelt because it rigidly restrains the whole body versus letting it give a bit in an accident. By 7.5 I'd think she should be able to properly sit with a seat belt in a HBB.
This was brought up when I posted about what carseat to bring to Ireland (http://pandce.proboards.com/thread/611126/wwyd-international-travel-car-seat). Which makes me feel marginally better. But then stuff like the ProPublica article comes out and I second guess it all.
At least people here are consistent (lol--on this topic).
Yeah--these articles always make me want to wrap everyone in bubble wrap.
I'm a CPST. (I locked myself out of my old account.)
Some things to keep in mind: Countries we strive to match for child passenger safety have testing and features we don't have in the U.S. They can keep their kids rear facing to 4/5/6, but their convertibles have load legs. None of our convertibles have that, and our rebound testing isn't as stringent as say, Canada's, so we don't actually know if it is as safe to do that with our seats. Many of our seats here don't pass in Canada not just because of side impact but because of rebound. Rear facing is safe, but the sanctimommy stuff about keeping kids rf past a certain age really is unnecessary.
Same goes for harnessing. We don't have any data showing a harness/extended harnessing is even a tiny bit safer than a properly used high back booster.
And then the same goes for HBB/backless. There are situations when a backless is safer than HBB.
This kind of dramatic article is hitting average consumers like the Consumer Reports and Freakanomics articles.
(Apologies for typos and missed words. I shouldn't try multitasking.)
Thank you for this. I was starting to feel bad my 10 year old uses a backless booster now, since technically she could still be harnessed. She is about 55 lbs, and around 4’4”. The seatbelt hits at the right places on her body using the booster. She is the only kid we know of in her grade that uses any type of booster at all (5th grade/middle school).
Post by karinothing on Feb 6, 2020 16:53:35 GMT -5
I think its important to note that the pro publica article is focusing largely in children under 40lbs in boosters..I do not think most of us are doing that. I mean the article mentions they used to have a booster for one year olds.
I think its important to note that the pro publica article is focusing largely in children under 40lbs in boosters..I do not think most of us are doing that. I mean the article mentions they used to have a booster for one year olds.
This does come up fairly often in CPST groups. Not as often as kids too heavy for harnesses, but it does come up a lot. In Canada the standard is HBB for over 40lb, in the US they're rated to 30lb. Every time someone (within our professional groups) asks for compelling sources that it's unsafe to put a 35lb 6/7/8yo in a hbb, nobody can cite anything, and so they carry on with what information they do have. That info they do have is about bone density and maturity to sit still at those ages.
I hope I'm not coming across argumentative, just trying to offer insight from the perspective of someone who deals with car seats and testing and manufacturers for a living.
You are helpful..I dont think you are argumentative
You are doing a great job. Keep doing what you're doing.
Thanks...every time I see read the recommendation to harness or booster until the child reaches the limit of the seat, I’m like, damn she will be high school by then. 🤷🏼♀️ I think the only seat she truly outgrew before we upgraded her was the infant bucket seat, by height. We passed her convertible seats down to her sister before she reached the limit.
turbo , DS1’s best friend (at age 4.5) is already in a backless booster. I cringed when I saw his seat in his mom’s car.
I’ve been debating moving DS1 to a high back booster when kinder starts this year so he could get out easily, but then I realized I can just teach him how to unbuckle his harness. So that’s what we’ll be doing. I kept him rear facing until the day he hit the weight limit and DS2 will probably rear face until 4 because he’s so small.
I agree. I just don’t understand the rush with that stuff.
My daughter in kindergarten could NOT undo the harness of any car seat. She seriously couldn't physically do it. We had to move her to a HB car seat then because she was in the ferry lane at school and we couldn't leave the car, get out unbuckle her, and get back in. She had to do it herself. Luckily she already knew how to sit correctly, etc. so it wasn't as big a worry to us.
turbo , DS1’s best friend (at age 4.5) is already in a backless booster. I cringed when I saw his seat in his mom’s car.
I’ve been debating moving DS1 to a high back booster when kinder starts this year so he could get out easily, but then I realized I can just teach him how to unbuckle his harness. So that’s what we’ll be doing. I kept him rear facing until the day he hit the weight limit and DS2 will probably rear face until 4 because he’s so small.
I agree. I just don’t understand the rush with that stuff.
My daughter in kindergarten could NOT undo the harness of any car seat. She seriously couldn't physically do it. We had to move her to a HB car seat then because she was in the ferry lane at school and we couldn't leave the car, get out unbuckle her, and get back in. She had to do it herself. Luckily she already knew how to sit correctly, etc. so it wasn't as big a worry to us.
Yeah, that is a slight concern of mine. We've got a good 6 months though, so if he can't figure it out, we'll go ahead and switch him when we have to. I'm hoping he'll be able to get it though. I do trust that DS1 is mature enough to sit correctly in a high back booster, so I'm not worried about that part at least.
I said it in the CEP thread and I'm going to say it again here, there are a lot of reasons people put small kids in boosters and we're privileged to not be in their shoes. At the end of the day, nearly every caregiver is doing the best they can for their kid.
I don’t disagree but the point is that the company marketed an unsafe product and claimed it is safer than it was. And also that other countries have more stringent testing. As caregivers we deserve as good of info as possible so that our best isn’t leaving kids injured.
This kind of stuff scares the crap out of me. I’m about to turn DS (27 months) from RF to FF because he’s huge and close to the weight limit to RF in his seat, and I have some guilt about that knowing his spine isn’t as developed as most kids when they hit that weight. I *could* buy a seat with a 50 lb limit instead of 40, but I don’t want to when his seat is otherwise great- he’s comfortable, the straps easily tighten well (which are hard for me in his travel seat we use when driving in DH’s car) and frankly I’ll be more comfortable once he is FF because as previously mentioned, the rules are hard. I can’t get his seat to sit any more upright even though I *should* be able to make it one less recline level and keep the bubble on the line in my car for a safe install, and with the current recline to have a space between the back of my seat and his car seat so that they don’t interfere (again minor stuff that’s not obvious if you aren’t reading the manual with a fine tooth comb or in a car seat group) means my knees graze the front dash since I’m also very tall and in a smaller car. It’s hard to know the front-back installed dimensions of anything I’d replace it with, especially knowing that a good installation varies slightly from car to car because of seat shapes affecting things like the actual recline position you can use vs the theoretical.
So TL;DR is yes, choosing and installing a seat properly is a lot harder than it should be.
I said it in the CEP thread and I'm going to say it again here, there are a lot of reasons people put small kids in boosters and we're privileged to not be in their shoes. At the end of the day, nearly every caregiver is doing the best they can for their kid.
Agree. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. There is best practice, then there is the real world. We all do the best we can with what we have. I'm not perfect either.