@ COVID

[sonrisa]

Just a generic thread of coronavirus with kids in the mix.

Ever since the study finding heart damage in college athletes who ha previously tested positive, I've wanted to see if anyone had done a study of kids who had tested positive and had mild or asymptomatic cases to see if there are lasting heart or lung effects. Has anyone seen anything like that?

[af1212]

Oct 16, 2020 11:18:52 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Just a generic thread of coronavirus with kids in the mix.

Ever since the study finding heart damage in college athletes who ha previously tested positive, I've wanted to see if anyone had done a study of kids who had tested positive and had mild or asymptomatic cases to see if there are lasting heart or lung effects. Has anyone seen anything like that?

This is a fear of mine and the reason I chose to keep my kids home and do Online this year.

I just keep imagining in ten years when my 2nd grader graduates HS somehow there will be a whole class of kids unable to play sports in college or something due to some unknown side effect or lasting repercussion.

I’m pretty calm about most things related to COVID and feel like I’m managing any anxieties well but this one really gets to me.

[sonrisa]

Oct 16, 2020 11:22:44 GMT -5 af1212 said:

Oct 16, 2020 11:18:52 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Just a generic thread of coronavirus with kids in the mix.

Ever since the study finding heart damage in college athletes who ha previously tested positive, I've wanted to see if anyone had done a study of kids who had tested positive and had mild or asymptomatic cases to see if there are lasting heart or lung effects. Has anyone seen anything like that?

This is a fear of mine and the reason I chose to keep my kids home and do Online this year.

I just keep imagining in ten years when my 2nd grader graduates HS somehow there will be a whole class of kids unable to play sports in college or something due to some unknown side effect or lasting repercussion.

I’m pretty calm about most things related to COVID and feel like I’m managing any anxieties well but this one really gets to me.

The unknowns are what get to me. I'm afraid there will be a generation of kids who go on to have higher rates of sudden cardiac deaths and COPD. 

[waverly]

I just read a book by a pediatrician. She said in younger kids (not teens) there have not been a lot of those findings of heart damage. She points out this does happen with other viruses, that it is rare, and that typically it responds well to treatment. There is definitely more research to be done on it though. The book is self published. The author is Kelly Fradin and the title is Parenting in a Pandemic. She has a list of references in the back of the book as well.

If they develop misc-C which has a .05% chance then 53% have had heart issues. If your child is hospitalized or other health factors you should request a follow up with cardiology.

[DotAndBuzz]

sonrisa and af1212, me too.

I 100% get that for most kids online school sucks (personally, mine are doing relatively ok, but I know that's not necessarily true for everyone). For some it is going to have lasting education effects. For those who are at risk, in terms of mental health, socioeconomically, and academically, those effects will be magnified. I get that special education services, therapies, and IEPs are nearly impossible to meet while solely online. Parents who work are just fucked, because how can you work while also facilitating school (especially for younger kids, and/or if you have to physically BE at your workplace, away from home)?

But then on the other hand, I feel like by rushing back to school because "kids don't get it as bad" we're taking a massive gamble on the health of literally an entire generation. We just don't know WHAT it does to kids, and it terrifies me.

None of this is easy for anyone, and every choice sucks.

[tiki]

Oct 16, 2020 11:58:42 GMT -5 DotAndBuzz said:

Parents who work are just fucked, because how can you work while also facilitating school (especially for younger kids, and/or if you have to physically BE at your workplace, away from home)?

We should be honest about this and say "mothers who work are just fucked", since the data show that's who's dropping out of the workforce: www.cnn.com/2020/10/07/economy/women-workforce-coronavirus/index.html

[sonrisa]

Oct 16, 2020 11:48:27 GMT -5 waverly said:

I just read a book by a pediatrician. She said in younger kids (not teens) there have not been a lot of those findings of heart damage. She points out this does happen with other viruses, that it is rare, and that typically it responds well to treatment. There is definitely more research to be done on it though. The book is self published. The author is Kelly Fradin and the title is Parenting in a Pandemic. She has a list of references in the back of the book as well.

If they develop misc-C which has a .05% chance then 53% have had heart issues. If your child is hospitalized or other health factors you should request a follow up with cardiology.

Being rare for other viruses isn't really relevant if it has a high incidence for this one.

For that very small sample of Ohio state kids tested, it wasn't rare at all. 4 out of 26. And these weren't even moderate corona cases. Just under half had had mild symptoms while the others had been asymptomatic. If those findings hold up in larger studies of children, that is a problem. 

jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2770645?appId=scweb

[wanderingback]

Oct 16, 2020 22:15:37 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Oct 16, 2020 11:48:27 GMT -5 waverly said:

I just read a book by a pediatrician. She said in younger kids (not teens) there have not been a lot of those findings of heart damage. She points out this does happen with other viruses, that it is rare, and that typically it responds well to treatment. There is definitely more research to be done on it though. The book is self published. The author is Kelly Fradin and the title is Parenting in a Pandemic. She has a list of references in the back of the book as well.

If they develop misc-C which has a .05% chance then 53% have had heart issues. If your child is hospitalized or other health factors you should request a follow up with cardiology.

Being rare for other viruses isn't really relevant if it has a high incidence for this one.

For that very small sample of Ohio state kids tested, it wasn't rare at all. 4 out of 26. And these weren't even moderate corona cases. Just under half had had mild symptoms while the others had been asymptomatic. If those findings hold up in larger studies of children, that is a problem. 

jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2770645?appId=scweb

To be fair this isn’t a great study because these athletes didn’t have baseline cardio mri’s. Also getting cardio mri’s isn’t a standard of care in patients with influenza or other viruses to diagnose myocarditis. In real life myocarditis is typically identified when patients have symptoms, the work up usually includes several things such as an echo but not a cardio mri from what I know (disclaimer I don’t do inpatient medicine anymore).

I posted in the flu vaccine thread that I think people get complacent with the flu but I’ve seen more than one patient with cardiac complications from the flu. So unfortunately cardiac complications aren’t just a covid problem, but they are thankfully rare.

I’m just pointing that out because I would want to see their previous cardio mri’s and I have a feeling if we did cardio mri’s on everyone with a viral infection we’d find abnormalities.

I agree there’s obviously many things we don’t know about covid so we should all be careful, but I think this study does have flaws.

[sonrisa]

Oct 16, 2020 23:21:45 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Oct 16, 2020 22:15:37 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Being rare for other viruses isn't really relevant if it has a high incidence for this one.

For that very small sample of Ohio state kids tested, it wasn't rare at all. 4 out of 26. And these weren't even moderate corona cases. Just under half had had mild symptoms while the others had been asymptomatic. If those findings hold up in larger studies of children, that is a problem. 

jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2770645?appId=scweb

To be fair this isn’t a great study because these athletes didn’t have baseline cardio mri’s. Also getting cardio mri’s isn’t a standard of care in patients with influenza or other viruses to diagnose myocarditis. In real life myocarditis is typically identified when patients have symptoms, the work up usually includes several things such as an echo but not a cardio mri from what I know (disclaimer I don’t do inpatient medicine anymore).

I posted in the flu vaccine thread that I think people get complacent with the flu but I’ve seen more than one patient with cardiac complications from the flu. So unfortunately cardiac complications aren’t just a covid problem, but they are thankfully rare.

I’m just pointing that out because I would want to see their previous cardio mri’s and I have a feeling if we did cardio mri’s on everyone with a viral infection we’d find abnormalities.

I agree there’s obviously many things we don’t know about covid so we should all be careful, but I think this study does have flaws.

Thanks. This is what I needed to read tonight.

[al dente]

Oct 16, 2020 11:48:27 GMT -5 waverly said:

The book is self published. The author is Kelly Fradin and the title is Parenting in a Pandemic.

Oh I follow her on Instagram! I like her stories and posts, and she often goes over recent news in her stories. Her IG is @adviceigivemyfriends (Advice I give my friends, but no spaces. It’s kinda hard to read all together like that)

[wanderingback]

Oct 17, 2020 0:24:00 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Oct 16, 2020 23:21:45 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

To be fair this isn’t a great study because these athletes didn’t have baseline cardio mri’s. Also getting cardio mri’s isn’t a standard of care in patients with influenza or other viruses to diagnose myocarditis. In real life myocarditis is typically identified when patients have symptoms, the work up usually includes several things such as an echo but not a cardio mri from what I know (disclaimer I don’t do inpatient medicine anymore).

I posted in the flu vaccine thread that I think people get complacent with the flu but I’ve seen more than one patient with cardiac complications from the flu. So unfortunately cardiac complications aren’t just a covid problem, but they are thankfully rare.

I’m just pointing that out because I would want to see their previous cardio mri’s and I have a feeling if we did cardio mri’s on everyone with a viral infection we’d find abnormalities.

I agree there’s obviously many things we don’t know about covid so we should all be careful, but I think this study does have flaws.

I am NOT an expert, but I did work in end stage heart failure/heart transplant for a long time. Viral cardiomyopathy is much more common than people think. It does not surprise me that we are seeing an uptick in cases, especially if they are looking for it. I think it will take a good bit of time to see if COVID-19, specifically, causes a higher incident of cardiomyopathy or heart issues. 

Yep.
There’s an ED resident (might be in fellowship now) that had a heart transplant in her 20s during med school (or it might’ve been during residency, can’t remember) due to a viral infection and developed heart complcations. I can’t remember if it was cardiomyopathy or myocarditis. I’m not sure if they ever identified the specific virus, but she said about 2 weeks before she had what she thought was a general cold, then 2 weeks later she was so short of breath that she went to ED and that’s where she was diagnosed and was put on transplant list and thankfully received one.

So yeah I think Covid is just making people realize there is indeed scary shit out in this world. But those extremes are thankfully rare, especially in younger people. We all just need to remain vigilant!

[Velar Fricative]

Oct 17, 2020 14:49:32 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Oct 16, 2020 11:58:42 GMT -5 DotAndBuzz said:

sonrisa and af1212, me too.

I 100% get that for most kids online school sucks (personally, mine are doing relatively ok, but I know that's not necessarily true for everyone). For some it is going to have lasting education effects. For those who are at risk, in terms of mental health, socioeconomically, and academically, those effects will be magnified. I get that special education services, therapies, and IEPs are nearly impossible to meet while solely online. Parents who work are just fucked, because how can you work while also facilitating school (especially for younger kids, and/or if you have to physically BE at your workplace, away from home)?

But then on the other hand, I feel like by rushing back to school because "kids don't get it as bad" we're taking a massive gamble on the health of literally an entire generation. We just don't know WHAT it does to kids, and it terrifies me.

None of this is easy for anyone, and every choice sucks.

It has been a massive failure in behalf of out government that we aren’t testing literally everyone. Every kid, educator and other adult who set foot in the school should have been tested before school started. And then they should have been doing random testing once the year started.

We have random testing here, but it’s not mandatory. Parents have gone apeshit and many won’t consent. I wish enrolling kids into hybrid learning was consent enough (basically, if you don’t want to have your child be tested, then they’re doing fully virtual learning).

[wanderingback]

Oct 17, 2020 14:58:13 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Oct 17, 2020 14:49:32 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

It has been a massive failure in behalf of out government that we aren’t testing literally everyone. Every kid, educator and other adult who set foot in the school should have been tested before school started. And then they should have been doing random testing once the year started.

We have random testing here, but it’s not mandatory. Parents have gone apeshit and many won’t consent. I wish enrolling kids into hybrid learning was consent enough (basically, if you don’t want to have your child be tested, then they’re doing fully virtual learning).

Yeah.
Although the federal government should’ve stepped up, it’s crazy that testing is still not a priority in other places. I’m glad the messaging for the general public here is to get tested whenever. Result times are faster now too. I heard the first batch of school testing the results were pretty good. So I’m just hanging on to the hope that we won’t have a repeat of April since we’re more prepared.

[oswin]

Sounds like daycare, elementary, and maybe middle schools tend to not have superspreader events when precautions are taken: www.npr.org/2020/10/21/925794511/were-the-risks-of-reopening-schools-exaggerated Which isn't to say that school is totally safe, but it may be safer than we (or at least I) originally feared.

[waverly]

Oct 21, 2020 18:14:25 GMT -5 oswin said:

Sounds like daycare, elementary, and maybe middle schools tend to not have superspreader events when precautions are taken: www.npr.org/2020/10/21/925794511/were-the-risks-of-reopening-schools-exaggerated Which isn't to say that school is totally safe, but it may be safer than we (or at least I) originally feared.

I think the difference is in places taking precautions (masks and social distancing) are not spreader events.

It’s unmasked events that are the problem especially if they are crowded and indoors but also crowds outside.

Events that are spreading them here that are smaller than a crowd are unmasked sports and gatherings. Unfortunately sports here are unmasked but at least they are pods and not playing games. But I think that is our bigger risk for kids.

[tacokick]

Oct 21, 2020 18:14:25 GMT -5 oswin said:

Sounds like daycare, elementary, and maybe middle schools tend to not have superspreader events when precautions are taken: www.npr.org/2020/10/21/925794511/were-the-risks-of-reopening-schools-exaggerated Which isn't to say that school is totally safe, but it may be safer than we (or at least I) originally feared.

The article basically seems to be saying that they don’t have enough data to know and that what data we have is self reported so might not give an accurate picture. We really can’t compare what other countries are doing to what is going on here, we have zero national response and most areas in the US have little to no contact tracing and are generating no reliable data. Until we have that and have dealt with this during the cold weather months* I don’t think we can really know much of anything.

So much seems to be down to luck (super spreaders do most of the infections and seem rare) and good ventilation. We know there is increased risk every time you are around other people. The less contact you have with people the lower the chance you have of getting it. This piece is saying there doesn’t seem to be an elevated risk in schools, not that the risk is lower or different from the risk of doing other masked, distanced indoor activities.

* www.nytimes.com/2020/10/21/us/coronavirus-cold-weather-winter-alaska.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

[sonrisa]

Last night my county had a talk on schools/covid/reopening procedures. Some schools have reopen while others chose to stay closed.

So far, the only known local case of school spread was between two 3 year olds at a preschool.

[abs]

Elementary schools here have had basically no spread and junior highs very little. The issue is high schools and sports. School reopening is a case study in how well masks work.

[mskitkat]

My daycare has a policy that if one kid is sick with literally any symptoms, all siblings are out until the sick kid tests covid negative. The sick kid can’t return until they are 72 hours symptom free. I am going to lose my mind. My kids have only attended HALF of the days since they started. The other half has been home waiting for covid results or for their runny nose to clear up. I don’t know how I’m going to manage it. I can’t work with them home, and we are out of pto.

[blanchedevereaux]

H’s school put out a statement saying that they were operating independently of the county heath dept and that if the county escalated to red or purple, that doesn’t mean they will automatically revert to hybrid (they’re in person, full time now.). They didn’t notify any of the teachers or staff members before the public found out. H just happened to see it on FB. Somehow, we seem to be the only ones upset about this. I feel like I’m being gaslit.

[Susie]

mskitkat, I feel you.  We're wrapping up a 2 week closure of our 9 classroom daycare center at the end of this week.  They closed the whole center after a child in a toddler classroom tested positive.  By now we know that the child's infant class sibling has tested neg, as has everyone else connected to the center who tested.  MH does WFH, but in a role where he can't help much, so I've been on my own juggling my job + my 16 month old.  It's... not good.  But, chalk it up to a daycare event not being a super spreader event.  Not one single incidence of spread!  That is encouraging to me, as I look for silver linings.

My older child is in K this year, and is attending in person.  Our district has had 3 covid+ cases in the high school, but 0 in the middle school (hybrid) + five neighborhood elementary schools (full time in person), after being back for about 6 weeks.  That is also encouraging to me w/r/t the littles.

[erbear]

We got a report from the docs today (CHOP PolicyLab, plus two county health commissioners). Their news was good - little evidence of spread at school worldwide and none in PA. It seems like, for now anyway, our mitigation strategies (full time masking, distance, small classes) are working.

[CurlyQ284]

Oct 21, 2020 19:16:04 GMT -5 abs said:

Elementary schools here have had basically no spread and junior highs very little. The issue is high schools and sports. School reopening is a case study in how well masks work.

@
Same. My son is in 2nd grade and has been in person since Labor Day, 4 days a week (Wednesday is virtual to allow for deep cleaning). They wear masks all day except outside for recess. The playground is divided into zones and classes are assigned to the zones each day. Classes do not mix. They've restructured drop off and pick up to funnel through 30 different doors to the building instead of a bottleneck 1 entrance for the school. Assigned seats at lunch and doing specials in the classroom instead of moving about the school. There has been one student positive and quarantined, I think there are 550 or so kids at the school.

I logged in on our county commissioners meeting and the health director said spread among young kids is due to maskless extracurriculars. Most of the spread is related to college age kids at this time.