More daycare covid questions

[Susie]

DS just went back to daycare on Monday after a 2 week closure due to a child testing positive for covid in another classroom.  Last night, after THREE DAYS BACK, we got an email that a teacher has just tested positive.  Same classroom (it is not DS's).  As of last night they asked that teacher's class to stay home and await quarantine instructions from the DOH, for now the other 8 classes are still open.  Good lord, fingers crossed.

I'm not sure what the difference is between this time and last - why was last time a whole-center closure and this time just the one class?  (Again, at least for now.)  My best guess is that since teachers are masked all day and kids aren't, they can close more narrowly for a teacher illness?  IDK.

I'm also thinking through the likelihood of this being an independently acquired case with the bad luck to be same class vs. community spread.  The timeline is too long for it to be in-daycare community spread, right?  It's close.
    Fri 10/9 - positive child's last day in care
    Sun 10/11 - positive child's test taken
    Tues 10/13 - positive child's result comes back, daycare closes.  Child wasn't in attendance that day.
    ...
    Mon 10/26 - everyone returns.  Positive child's sibling and mom have both tested neg in the meantime, as has everyone else who was connected to daycare and tested.  17 days have gone by since positive teacher and positive child were last at school on the same day.  Teacher leaves at lunch time (I assume due to symptoms?), test taken.  Test comes back positive 10/28.

This whole thing is seriously stressing me out.  Depending on how the director's call with DOH goes this AM (she was going to call when they opened for business), we could be on the cusp of our second 2 week closure in 3 weeks, and that one classroom is definitely doing that.

In the meantime this morning I saw my covid antibody test from my blood donation on Sunday came back negative.  Every 2 months when I donate and see that, I always breathe a sigh of relief with that, like whew, I have not unwittingly had it/passed it to anyone!

[waverly]

I would ask the director about the difference. I don't know that 2 cases indicate spread.

[noodleoo]

What is your community positivity rate like? I think it unlikely that it was transmitted inside the school, although did you say the kids are not masked? Is this an under 2 room? I wouldn't be comfortable with any school/daycare where they are not enforcing masking for all kids over 2.

[ktw]

I don’t think the DOH considers masking vs. not masking when it comes to who was a close contact or which parts of a school to shut down (or not). The difference could just be realizing that it’s not going to be feasible to close the whole daycare for two weeks every time there is one case.

[Mrs.flang]

Did the positive child also since test negative before returning? You didn't specify so I wasn't sure if they re-tested or just waited it out. It was never very clear to me how long this can be contagious for. Like, I know 14 days is the guideline, but aren't some people sick for a lot longer than that and if that is the case are they still only contagious at the beginning?

Either way it still seems unlikely this is linked to the same kid.

I would agree with you that hopefully the teacher case is handled differently. At our center masks on kids are "encouraged" and not required because I presume they can't necessarily force or punish a 2+ year old to wear their mask effectively. But as far as I can tell they are very good at enforcing it. Ours is a lot better than another daycare I'm familiar with, but even in an ideal scenario, kids still remove masks for frequent eating and nap time while the teacher should have it on for 100% of the day.

[Susie]

Oct 29, 2020 9:59:11 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

What is your community positivity rate like? I think it unlikely that it was transmitted inside the school, although did you say the kids are not masked? Is this an under 2 room? I wouldn't be comfortable with any school/daycare where they are not enforcing masking for all kids over 2.

Currently 1.7% positive.

The classroom affected is a toddler class, 18m-3y.  The kids are not required to wear masks all the day/within the center, just in/out of the federal building.

I understand the sentiment on "no school without full masking," I have a kindergartener who handles masks all day at school pretty well, and the ubiquity of masking was part of why we were comfortable sending her.  But I don't feel like that extends logically and equally to 2-4 year olds who need to take naps without masks, are less able to understand an explanation of why we have to leave them on, can't be counted on to leave them alone, etc.  Short periods yes, but all day?  I just don't see it happening.  If we get to a positive rate that's high enough that I feel like 2 year olds need to somehow be masked 8-9 hours a day, I think that's the point where I say, ok, we're not doing daycare anymore.  DS won't be 2 until June, so I guess I'll also have to see how he does with masks when we get closer.  He will be moving to one of the two 18m-3y classes this winter though and my expectations for his future classmates' mask wearing are not that high.

[noodleoo]

Oct 29, 2020 10:21:44 GMT -5 Susie said:

Oct 29, 2020 9:59:11 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

What is your community positivity rate like? I think it unlikely that it was transmitted inside the school, although did you say the kids are not masked? Is this an under 2 room? I wouldn't be comfortable with any school/daycare where they are not enforcing masking for all kids over 2.

Currently 1.7% positive.

The classroom affected is a toddler class, 18m-3y.  The kids are not required to wear masks all the day/within the center, just in/out of the federal building.

I understand the sentiment on "no school without full masking," I have a kindergartener who handles masks all day at school pretty well, and the ubiquity of masking was part of why we were comfortable sending her.  But I don't feel like that extends logically and equally to 2-4 year olds who need to take naps without masks, are less able to understand an explanation of why we have to leave them on, can't be counted on to leave them alone, etc.  Short periods yes, but all day?  I just don't see it happening.  If we get to a positive rate that's high enough that I feel like 2 year olds need to somehow be masked 8-9 hours a day, I think that's the point where I say, ok, we're not doing daycare anymore.  DS won't be 2 until June, so I guess I'll also have to see how he does with masks when we get closer.  He will be moving to one of the two 18m-3y classes this winter though and my expectations for his future classmates are not that high.

I understand and obviously it is a learning curve.  My DD2 just turned 2 on 10/7.  She moved up from the toddler room (under 2, no masks) to the Twos room the next week.  She learned how to wear the mask in 3 days.  We had been trying to practice at home and she fought it, but seeing all the other kids/adults wear it, she adjusted quickly.  She wears it without issue now, even asks for it when we get in the car to drive to school.  They take them off for eating, when they are outside and possibly during nap (I'm not sure).  I really think kids can be taught to wear masks, in some ways almost easier than adults.  I get that there will be exceptions, especially for kids with sensory issues, etc.  However, masks are the most important thing we can do to stop spread and I would not send my kids to school/daycare if they weren't required.

[Susie]

Oct 29, 2020 10:10:53 GMT -5 Mrs.flang said:

Did the positive child also since test negative before returning? You didn't specify so I wasn't sure if they re-tested or just waited it out. It was never very clear to me how long this can be contagious for. Like, I know 14 days is the guideline, but aren't some people sick for a lot longer than that and if that is the case are they still only contagious at the beginning? 

I'm not sure.  I assume they returned on Monday after 2 weeks but don't know for sure that they did attend, and I also don't know whether the child tested neg or just waited it out.  My understanding is that he/she was asymptomatic so there were no symptoms to measure time symptom-free as a guide for return.  I know at DD's school a neg test would be required, but public school has their own rules.

In any event, since Monday was the first possible day back, and also the same day the teacher tested positive, if it came from the child the exposure would have been 10/9 at the latest.  That seems far fetched, but IDK whether it's better or worse!  I guess it just is.

[Pilsy]

Oct 29, 2020 9:59:11 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

I wouldn't be comfortable with any school/daycare where they are not enforcing masking for all kids over 2.

This. In fact, I went out of my way to change centers when we were finally ready to send DD2 back to preschool, because our old center is part of a chain that isn't requiring masks. The kids adjust quickly and are (surprisingly) compliant and happy. I spoke with the director of our old center about how disappointed I am in their decision, and we both hope they'll be changing it. 


Susie, my fingers are crossed for you. I've only picked up bits and pieces of your saga with this center, but I agree with those urging you to make a change, and I also understand your choices are limited and you may be overwhelmed by the logistics of changing right now. I hope this works out (without a closure!) and that you can make a change relatively soon.  

[dcn]

I would say the teacher likely contracted it last week sometime. The timeline is pretty long for her to have contracted it from the student on 10/9 and just show symptoms on the 26th. As for the different closings - didn't you say last time that the Dept of Health didn't recommend they close the entire facility, but they did out of an abundance of caution?

As far as how long you are contagious, I believe CDC guidelines say 10 days, as long as you are fever free for 24 hours and other symptoms have improved. If you still have a fever and/or are not improving then you should continue to stay home/see your medical provider. That said - if someone in your house is positive, your family should quarantine for 14 days beginning after the latest exposure. So if that kid was tested 10/11, they are "contagious" for 10 days and THEN the 14 days starts. Mom and siblings should still be at home until next Wednesday. At least, that is how the school here are doing it. It is going to be a really long winter.

[cricketwife]

Susie , I don't have anything to help you with your question.

I just came in to say the the comments about not being comfortable with any care that isn't enforcing masks are not at all helpful. We all know there is widespread dislike for Susie's daycare and we would like to see her change. Clearly she can't at the moment and she's said in the past she's on a waiting list.

I am also uncomfortable with daycares that don't require masks, but guess what?  They aren't required in my state.  Last month, I was in an uproar because the teachers weren't wearing masks, though they are supposed to.  I addressed it, and now they are.  In the meantime, I looked for other centers.  And guess what? In my city of 1 million people, I found ONE center that had an opening.  And guess what?  It costs 1.5 times what we are currently paying.  And guess what?  They don't require masks for the kids either.  There is NO option for childcare for my 4 year old where the center requires masks for all kids (or all over 2 -- or any kids, frankly). 

And I even believe that young children can be taught to wear masks properly, but IT DOESN'T MATTER because I have to work.  

[icedcoffee]

Oct 29, 2020 12:15:59 GMT -5 cricketwife said:

Susie , I don't have anything to help you with your question.

I just came in to say the the comments about not being comfortable with any care that isn't enforcing masks are not at all helpful. We all know there is widespread dislike for Susie's daycare and we would like to see her change. Clearly she can't at the moment and she's said in the past she's on a waiting list.

I am also uncomfortable with daycares that don't require masks, but guess what?  They aren't required in my state.  Last month, I was in an uproar because the teachers weren't wearing masks, though they are supposed to.  I addressed it, and now they are.  In the meantime, I looked for other centers.  And guess what? In my city of 1 million people, I found ONE center that had an opening.  And guess what?  It costs 1.5 times what we are currently paying.  And guess what?  They don't require masks for the kids either.  There is NO option for childcare for my 4 year old where the center requires masks for all kids (or all over 2 -- or any kids, frankly). 

And I even believe that young children can be taught to wear masks properly, but IT DOESN'T MATTER because I have to work.  

Yes all of this.  We obviously all hate her daycare, but changing daycares is not a small feat in many places  and there are just so many factors involved in WHERE we send our kids.

My advice was going to be to send DS in a mask despite it not being a requirement, but then I remembered that he's not 2 yet.  So...when he's 2 if this is a THING still (god---kill me if it is LOL) then I would absolutely 100% send him with a mask every day requirement or not.  Who  knows...maybe other parents would follow. 

[hbomdiggity]

Not daycare, but our k-8 allows kids on campus for 2 hrs 3 days a week (rotating cohort schedule).

A kid in a middle school grade tested positive. That cohort was restricted from coming back on campus, but otherwise school operated as “normal.”

Likely due to strict masking and cohort separation, they did not have to shut down the entire school and no additional cases were experienced within the cohort and school.

[noodleoo]

Oct 29, 2020 12:15:59 GMT -5 cricketwife said:

Susie , I don't have anything to help you with your question.

I just came in to say the the comments about not being comfortable with any care that isn't enforcing masks are not at all helpful. We all know there is widespread dislike for Susie's daycare and we would like to see her change. Clearly she can't at the moment and she's said in the past she's on a waiting list.

I am also uncomfortable with daycares that don't require masks, but guess what?  They aren't required in my state.  Last month, I was in an uproar because the teachers weren't wearing masks, though they are supposed to.  I addressed it, and now they are.  In the meantime, I looked for other centers.  And guess what? In my city of 1 million people, I found ONE center that had an opening.  And guess what?  It costs 1.5 times what we are currently paying.  And guess what?  They don't require masks for the kids either.  There is NO option for childcare for my 4 year old where the center requires masks for all kids (or all over 2 -- or any kids, frankly). 

And I even believe that young children can be taught to wear masks properly, but IT DOESN'T MATTER because I have to work.  

You are totally right.  I'm in MA and I forget that other states don't require masks (which is a whole different discussion).  Susie, I didn't mean to make you feel bad, I know you have limited options.  I'm sorry.

I hope they don't shut down your whole school again.

[Susie]

Thank you cricketwife, icedcoffee, I kept starting to reply and getting frustrated.

I mean, I'm not "comfortable" working-parenting in a pandemic at all.  This isn't what I planned.  But we all have to do the best we can with the choices available to us, right?  

I'm fully on board the mask train.  Persuasion that it's important doesn't do much, I'm already with you.  DD, H, and I all wear them in public.  DS will too, when he turns 2 -- but that is still 7-8 months away.  That's like a whole pandemic lifetime, lol.  

My life and available care options also demand that I'm on the daycare train, barring catastrophe, and guilt about that doesn't help anything.  While we've had shitty luck lately for sure, 1.7% positivity isn't feeling catastrophic yet so I need to KOKO.  I have a demanding FT career, and an H who also works FT.  It was hard enough last spring when we were on lockdown, and back then, DS had a maximum radius of like 3 feet, DD wasn't in remote school yet (and still napped), and H was in a really flexible role and helped.  Now DS is walking, climbing stairs, and pushing keyboard buttons, DD would have remote K if she wasn't in person, and H has changed to a role with almost no flexibility to help with the kids, particularly in the AM (when they're both up!).  I can't breezily just absorb DS's care on my own, any more than I can make another daycare spot materialize on demand.

We are still on the wait list to change, and we're still crossing fingers that maybe the ratio change at toddler age will open up a spot. Trust, MMM will know when we get one.  There will just be a post with no title and a whole bunch of celebration gifs in it.

In the meantime it seems pretty silly to leave our daycare right now over the mask thing.  DS is 16m, he and his classmates aren't going to be wearing masks at any daycare, no matter where I go.  All the teachers at our current one wear masks all day.  DS isn't a close contact of any of the age 2+ kids currently, so the impact of 2-4 yo masks on him is indirect and limited.  Switching daycares will solve a lot of problems, but this isn't one, at least not immediately.  I'll deal with the future when it comes!

For right now I'm mostly thrilled that it's almost 4pm and I haven't gotten a "come pick up" email yet.  I'm hoping that means I'm not going to, in connection with this episode.

Separately, I think it makes me feel better, pp's who agree it seems unlikely that the toddler and the toddler teacher cases are related.  It was freaking me out a little, thinking about how tenuous the (temporal) connection was.

[Pilsy]

cricketwife, good point! I truly didn't mean to shame someone for not doing something that's not even an option. I went out of my way to acknowledge Susie may have limited options or be (understandably) overwhelmed by the idea of switching daycares right now. I don't fault anyone who doesn't have choices, whether it's because they're not offered, they're insanely expensive, or whatever. I am very sorry for adding any unnecessary pressure to anyone's plate.

I do think it's important to talk about success in mask compliance among very young children, because I think it's a misconception that young children (and I"m talking 2 and up) can't or won't wear them all day. I know you agree, so I'm not trying to preach to the choir, but someone else who's doubted and does have the option it might give it some more thought if those of us who see it working talk about it.

[noodleoo]

Oct 29, 2020 15:07:12 GMT -5 Pilsy said:

cricketwife , good point! I truly didn't mean to shame someone for not doing something that's not even an option. I went out of my way to acknowledge Susie may have limited options or be (understandably) overwhelmed by the idea of switching daycares right now. I don't fault anyone who doesn't have choices, whether it's because they're not offered, they're insanely expensive, or whatever. I am very sorry for adding any unnecessary pressure to anyone's plate.

I do think it's important to talk about success in mask compliance among very young children, because I think it's a misconception that young children (and I"m talking 2 and up) can't or won't wear them all day. I know you agree, so I'm not trying to preach to the choir, but someone else who's doubted and does have the option it might give it some more thought if those of us who see it working talk about it.

Not to beat a dead horse, but that was my point as well.  Probably a combination of peer pressure and daycare teachers being miracle workers. 

[sillygoosegirl]

They shut down the entire daycare for 12 days? So it's entirely possible that the person positive kid caught it from was still in attendance and still contagious on the 13th and infected others who returned on the 26th and could have been asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic. Positive kid's family testing negative seems like it only suggest's it's more likely the kid got it at daycare (unless they identified some other source). Even a perfectly timed COVID test has like a 20% false negative rate, so yeah, I think it's totally plausible that it was transmission at daycare, probably involving another person who never tested positive. Of course, maybe the teacher strictly isolated at home for those 12 days because of the exposure, or maybe the teacher took advantage of the time off to engage in risky behavior... the latter also seems totally possible.

This stuff sucks.

[tacom]

[mention]sillygoosegirl [/mention] brings up some valid points

The teacher’s symptom onset (and test) fall within the incubation period from her last known contact with students

The positive student’s family testing negative suggests that he perhaps didn’t contract the virus at home, which could point to daycare

This potential mode of transmission is further supported in my mind by your low rates of community transmission. If you were in an an area with 5-10x+ higher % positive results, I would think differently

I think it’s plausible that this is a daycare case. They also could be totally unrelated. All this to say, there’s no way to know without surveillance testing.

[pandorica]

Ugh, I'm sorry you've got another daycare issue! You can't catch a break. No advice on the covid time-line, I always get confused trying to figure that stuff out.

Also - I think the no mask thing for kids is somewhat common here. DD's doesn't wear them and neither do my friends' kids, so just moving your DS to a new daycare won't necessarily fix that issue (this is aimed at PP, not OP).

[Susie]

Toward the end of the day yesterday we got confirmation that the positive teacher's classroom is closed and everyone will be quarantining for 2 weeks, but the other classrooms are staying open.  Phewwwww for the other 8 classes including us, but I feel really badly for that class, they're getting hit hard.  In 4 weeks, they're getting 3 days of childcare.  Ooft.

They said that the teacher did quarantine for the previous 2 weeks (after the student tested pos), then came to work Monday (first day back), felt poorly, and left to see Dr./get tested.  DOH seems to think the cases are more likely related than not, but we can't be sure.  (I mean we could be in an ideal world, but we don't live in Scienceville.)  In the end I guess it doesn't matter because the action items are the same.

Going forward the Director is asking all teachers to get a test prior to returning to work after a direct exposure + quarantine, rather than just waiting out the 2 weeks.  The DOH isn't requiring that, but it would potentially prevent this from happening again.  Since it's only the teachers that are doing it, though, and the students aren't all required to test neg before returning after an exposure + quarantine, I'm not sure how much impact it'll have.  Every little bit helps I guess?  (ETA:  the neg test is in addition to the 14 day quarantine, not instead of, just to be clear.)

It's going to be a hard winter.

[MrsE]

I do not have anything helpful to share, but want to send you virtual hugs and solidarity. It is so hard to be a working parent right now and dealing with daycare situations during a global pandemic is so stressful. Hugs. You are not alone.

[tommygirl03]

Oct 30, 2020 9:12:22 GMT -5 Susie said:

Going forward the Director is asking all teachers to get a test prior to returning to work after a direct exposure + quarantine, rather than just waiting out the 2 weeks.  The DOH isn't requiring that, but it would potentially prevent this from happening again.  Since it's only the teachers that are doing it, though, and the students aren't all required to test neg before returning after an exposure + quarantine, I'm not sure how much impact it'll have.  Every little bit helps I guess?  (ETA:  the neg test is in addition to the 14 day quarantine, not instead of, just to be clear.)

It's going to be a hard winter.

This is what I don’t get with the DoH - why no test after the 14 day quarantine? The exposed person could develop and be asymptomatic and just head out into the world. I also don’t think they are doing the 10 day + 14 day quarantine if you live with someone who was positive. At least not where I live. This is why it is all a shit show.

[SusanBAnthony]

I think having teachers test is ideal, but even better would be having everyone test.

But if they want the teacher to come back on day 15, they need to get tested on day 10. Or 11. Or 12. Or 13. Or 14. Because test return times are still all over the place. And obviously if you test at day ten you could miss a positive. Which is why we need the 15 minute tests even if they aren't perfect- everyone could get the fast test the day before and it would be better than no one getting tested.

[keweenawlove]

I don't have any helpful advice but I just wanted to commiserate. I'm the one that has to handle more of the working day childcare hours if daycare shuts down for positive tests (it has twice since they re-opened). There's no good options and it's going to be a long winter. With Wisconsin's rates, I feel like we've got some more long-term shutdowns coming. We were able to hire one of DD's teachers to watch just her during the big shutdown for a few hours a day so we're looking at doing like that if we're in that situation again.

[beerlover]

The 10+14 day quarantine thing is wild to me. I'm not saying its not needed, but that's a freaking calendar month almost. This is going to be the worst winter ever.