Kitchen layout preference

[jj]

We're in the beginning stages of thinking about a kitchen remodel.  These are the two designs our interior design gal has drawn up for us.  What are your thoughts/preferences between the two?  Things we should consider.  We've never done a remodel of this scale. 

Option 1:

photos.google.com/u/2/photo/AF1QipPFeTAhSggv4pjgDhjDDA5ZlY9kZAJ_sEGFA3cB


Option 2:

photos.google.com/u/2/photo/AF1QipPBcge5rEGt_YevIi-f4Qd36z5I7iL1BGTjGZDp


Ugh... sorry.  I can't figure out how to PIP

Attachments:

kitchen layout.docx (527.87 KB)

[winecat]

ProBoards wants me to download your attachment which I'm not too keen on. Did you try attaching the pics like you tried to attach the kitchen layout.docx file? Each pic has to be under 1MB.

[aprilsails]

If the windows and sliding doors are the boxes in the wall that I think they are, Layout 1 is the only choice that makes an ounce of sense. Layout 2 has you filling in three large windows, unless they are ones you are adding. I’m not sure since you didn’t give us much context.

For what it’s worth, layout 1 is the exact same as the kitchen that we built in our new home in terms of the work triangle layout, empty island, etc. The only concern I would have for you with that layout is to make sure you have 44” between the sink and fridge wall and the island so it doesn’t become a pinch point. Also make sure you have a counter depth fridge. Since the island is the main working space for food prep there is often someone standing there and it is a bit tight for us to also have someone else come in and open the fridge or pass by to get to the dining table. We have 42” and a standard depth fridge which was a mistake to have chosen, mostly because the damn handles stick out 3”.

At our last house we had the sink in the island and I hated it. Always having to deal with splashes going where they should not and also having the drying dishes stacked up on the island was too much visual clutter for the middle of the room. Now I have kids crap all over the island but that is another issue (thanks homeschooling). Oh, also the dishwasher at our last house wound up distorting the end panel for the island with the heat/steam. So don’t place a big white piece of MDF beside a dishwasher folks, even if that is what IKEA recommends.

Finally be smart and put in a pull out garbage in the island. It is so much fun to wipe all the dirt from food prep straight into the bucket. Seriously one of my weirdly favourite features of our new home.

[jinkies]

I would strongly prefer NOT to have the sink in the island, for a lot of the same reasons that aprilsails noted-- I like the visual of a big open space, or a vase of flowers in the middle. We use a drying rack and there are always dishes in it-- it would annoy me to have that in the middle of my island.

I have counter seating that backs up to our table (like your option 2) and I'm always pushing in chairs on one side or the other so we can walk through. It's annoying and another downside to that layout.

[lightbulbsun]

I prefer option 1. Is there a reason you don't have the microwave over the stove? It seems like a waste of storage space to have a hood over the stove and a built-in microwave over the counter.

[aprilsails]

I had another thought.

It looks like you are trying to shoehorn a dinette and an island into a space that only had one to begin with. So I have some follow up questions:

1. How often do you use the sliding doors? Are they your only access to the backyard? Is this a common pathway? I ask because you have really made it tight with both layouts to get through there.

2. Do you have another eating area or dining room? How far away is it and is it in regular use? We have been in two houses now without a dinette and with what I will refer to as a daily use dining room. We eat at the dining room table for lunch and dinner but generally eat breakfast and snacks at the island. If you have a functional dining room just around the corner, I would personally scratch the dinette, extend the island so it was 4 or 5 seats, put 18” deep built in cabinets under the three windows or a storage bench set up and call it a day. I do respect that in the time of a Covid dining rooms may be double duty (lord knows mine is) but it’s what I would prefer for long term use.

3. How many people in the household?

[jj]

I'm back. Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate the questions you asked because they help me kind of sort out all the different factors! In answer to a few of the questions:



1) We are a family of six (4 kids ages 3,5,7,9)

2) The sliding door is used DOZENS of times a day. So much use. More than any other door of our house. And access to it is part of what is driving the remodel (that and some unavoidable plumbing issues).

3) There is no other dining room. This is our designer's modification . Currently we have a (small) dining room and (small) kitchen and we're considering removing the wall between the two and possibly flip flopping their locations. (I'll try to add photos of the original dining room and kitchen so you can see what we're dealing with. Although the original photos show a full wall between the kitchen and DR, we actually cut that wall down to a half wall several years ago as a stop gap measure until we could afford to redo the whole kitchen.)

4) Regarding microwave placement, there is no particular reason for it not being over the stove. Our designer said she felt it was too ordinary. I doubt that will remain. It's just too efficient for our space to justify having it take up cabinet space.

5) The three windows near the dining table in Option 1 would be added. There is currently just one small window there.

6) I also agree with the concerns about a sink in the island and the chairs/bar stools getting in the way. Currently we have no bar space (which is fine), and it's hard to see how we add more to an already small space.

Attachments:

[penguingrrl]

Personally I prefer the second option. It seems like with the first you’re going to have kids running behind you all the time while you’re in the kitchen, which is a PITA (my kitchen is a bit of a pass through, I speak from experience).

[hbomdiggity]

Layout #1

I hate the sink in the island. As someone that hand washes a lot of stuff (pots pans) and air dry this means my island would never be clear. I also prefer to chop and prep at the island vs perimeter.

Microwaves over the stove are not great for actually venting. I would much prefer a powerful vent connected to the outside over my stove. This tends to also be indicative of more upscale kitchens.

[aprilsails]

With your additional information, I still prefer Option 1. I remain concerned about your total space and I would like to see a bigger table area somehow. I don’t know how so that is unhelpful.

[jj]

Jan 26, 2021 20:44:01 GMT -5 aprilsails said:

With your additional information, I still prefer Option 1. I remain concerned about your total space and I would like to see a bigger table area somehow. I don’t know how so that is unhelpful.

I agree with your concerns about table space. That is my primary concern with Option 1 so far. I think the challenge is my current dining room is larger and our designer has cut into the dining space to increase the size of our kitchen. While I appreciate the idea, b/c a larger kitchen would certainly be nice, I’m not sure how much bigger at the expense of being able to seat more people than just our immediate family.

For context though, the table shown in both designs is to scale of our current dining table which is 72x42.

[froggy76]

Since there are 6 of you and this will be your only dining area, I prefer option 2 with the banquette. Option 1 doesn't seem like it has enough seating for you all to have a meal together at the table. I would eliminate the island seating in option 2 and shrink the island a bit to improve traffic flow to and from the sliding glass doors. With table seating and counter seating, there will never been enough room to walk through that area and you'll end up having to push the table in as far as possible just to make it work.

Can the two single doors be eliminated? it looks like one goes to the basement - could those steps be accessed from the other side? Having wall space instead of a door there might give you more layout options.

The other alternative would be to have a big table in the middle like an old farmhouse kitchen and have the cabinetry all around both sides of the room.

[aprilsails]

I have more comments. I’m really invested now.

jj what is through the two doorways at the bottom of the image? Am I right in thinking those are two access doors to other rooms and cannot be moved?

I do have to say that Option 2 gives you a better dining room layout and also would be immensely cheaper considering you are not modifying the windows or exterior as much (if at all) and it also does not require you to relocate as much electrical or plumbing. The drawback I see is that you don’t have much prep space. However, you would have more prep space than your current kitchen so I feel as though this is likely a win.

I had a 600cfm hood/microwave combo at our last house and it was adequate for ventilation. You really need to find one with the highest cfm rating possible. That makes them functional.
ETA: If you went with Layout 2, I would be tempted to slide the range towards those doors a little more. Although it looks better visually centred in the space (designers!), it means you have a very tight work triangle and you don’t have a large stretch of useful countertop anywhere.

[circa1978]

As someone eight months into the kitchen remodel from hell, the first thing I would say is that your measurements near your sliding doors don't square up. The first layout shows almost no space between the door and the corner of the new window wall. But option two shows enough space for a counter depth fridge (which are never truly counter depth unless it's a 8k built in; you'll need at least 28 inches of depth there, if not 30, because it also needs space from the wall.)

According to these drawings, that would block the existing sliders.

ETA: looking at your pictures from RL, I see your kitchen does currently block those doors - where they added later? I'm not even sure that would be up to code? I'd choose the layout that fixes that.

I'd also add that you need to make sure to consult on taking down any wall. Sometimes it is easy, sometimes it is ....not. Ask me how I know.

[jj]

Jan 27, 2021 5:44:50 GMT -5 aprilsails said:

I have more comments. I’m really invested now.

jj what is through the two doorways at the bottom of the image? Am I right in thinking those are two access doors to other rooms and cannot be moved?

I do have to say that Option 2 gives you a better dining room layout and also would be immensely cheaper considering you are not modifying the windows or exterior as much (if at all) and it also does not require you to relocate as much electrical or plumbing. The drawback I see is that you don’t have much prep space. However, you would have more prep space than your current kitchen so I feel as though this is likely a win.

I had a 600cfm hood/microwave combo at our last house and it was adequate for ventilation. You really need to find one with the highest cfm rating possible. That makes them functional.
ETA: If you went with Layout 2, I would be tempted to slide the range towards those doors a little more. Although it looks better visually centred in the space (designers!), it means you have a very tight work triangle and you don’t have a large stretch of useful countertop anywhere.

One of the two doors goes down to the basement and garage. The other door is a very narrow pantry/broom closet. I’m not sure why both doors look the same size on the drawings. If I tried to move the door to the basement (which would actually alleviate some pinch points), I would lose a pantry which seems like not a great idea.

As for exterior changes, plan 1 involves adding the three windows. Plan two involves moving the sliding glass door down about 2 feet so it doesn’t abut the other wall as it does now. (There is a possibility that moving the slider more than 6-8 inches isn’t possible either due structural limitations and load bearing beams.)

I agree that the range looks better centered on the wall, but having the sink in the island is kind of awful. If I slid the range down toward the sliders, and moved the sink to the back wall, it would give me a useful prep area in the island. It would also nearly replicate my current layout. 😂

[jj]

Jan 27, 2021 8:38:21 GMT -5 circa1978 said:

As someone eight months into the kitchen remodel from hell, the first thing I would say is that your measurements near your sliding doors don't square up. The first layout shows almost no space between the door and the corner of the new window wall. But option two shows enough space for a counter depth fridge (which are never truly counter depth unless it's a 8k built in; you'll need at least 28 inches of depth there, if not 30, because it also needs space from the wall.)

According to these drawings, that would block the existing sliders.

ETA: looking at your pictures from RL, I see your kitchen does currently block those doors - where they added later? I'm not even sure that would be up to code? I'd choose the layout that fixes that.

I'd also add that you need to make sure to consult on taking down any wall. Sometimes it is easy, sometimes it is ....not. Ask me how I know.

Our current fridge blocks our sliders. It doesn’t block their function at all, but it does look pretty terrible. Another friend suggested eliminating the sliders and sizing down to a regular swinging door (with window panel) to avoid having to move the door and avoid having it blocked by the fridge. Downside of that though is I have another door swinging into our kitchen.

[circa1978]

jj , one thing to be aware of is that when you do a remodel, you probably will have to pull permits/submit the plan to your municipality. That wouldn't fly in mine but your mileage may vary. We also had to update anything that didn't meet the current code that had been grandfathered in, which added more than a thousand dollars in electrical costs alone.

[Roc A Bee]

I like my kitchen sink in the island. My kids sit there and we chat while I wash or prep. I have a double sink and the dish rack sits in one side and that’s where our hand washed dishes sit, they are never on the counter.

I also really like the seating area of #2.

[memenee]

I’m concerned that there is not enough room to pull chairs and stools out at the same time while still allowing room to pass thru. Like if people were sitting at the table and also at the island in layout 2 there would be no room for anyone to pass thru. That would drive me crazy. Maybe layout 2 but without seating at the island? Also if there is no seating at the island you could have storage under there instead.

[jj]

Jan 29, 2021 6:48:13 GMT -5 memenee said:

I’m concerned that there is not enough room to pull chairs and stools out at the same time while still allowing room to pass thru. Like if people were sitting at the table and also at the island in layout 2 there would be no room for anyone to pass thru. That would drive me crazy. Maybe layout 2 but without seating at the island? Also if there is no seating at the island you could have storage under there instead.

Yes, this is my husband’s main concern about option 2 right now. I agree, removing the bar seating is an easy fix to that piece.

[zaneyzoo]

What about ditching the dinette and just doing a bigger island? Our friends have an 11 ft island that functions as their table as well. I like the options, but it seems so cramped. I think eliminating the dinette would open it up more overall.

[jj]

Jan 29, 2021 11:23:10 GMT -5 zaneyzoo said:

What about ditching the dinette and just doing a bigger island? Our friends have an 11 ft island that functions as their table as well. I like the options, but it seems so cramped. I think eliminating the dinette would open it up more overall.

I think this will be a non-starter with my husband.  We have guests over with regularity (during non-COVID life, of course) and while it's not exceptionally spacious now, it works.  I think he will object to removing that option altogether.

[juliachild]

What about option one, but eliminate the small section of cabinets near the table. Then put a banquet in that corner? Or a really long table?

[jj]

Jan 29, 2021 22:04:24 GMT -5 juliachild said:

What about option one, but eliminate the small section of cabinets near the table. Then put a banquet in that corner? Or a really long table?

Interesting! That might work. Those cabinets were an effort to replace some storage that we currently have with a hutch, but that might be a good solution, especially if we build some sort of storage into the benches.

[memenee]

Jan 29, 2021 10:26:41 GMT -5 jj said:

Jan 29, 2021 6:48:13 GMT -5 memenee said:

I’m concerned that there is not enough room to pull chairs and stools out at the same time while still allowing room to pass thru. Like if people were sitting at the table and also at the island in layout 2 there would be no room for anyone to pass thru. That would drive me crazy. Maybe layout 2 but without seating at the island? Also if there is no seating at the island you could have storage under there instead.

Yes, this is my husband’s main concern about option 2 right now. I agree, removing the bar seating is an easy fix to that piece.

One other option I’ve seen is a “T” shaped island where the top part of the T is the true island/the work space. And the long part of the T is attached and a little lower with the same countertop and serves as a “dining spot” like an attached table sort of. That may be another option. You could amend design 2 to do this. It would eliminate the poor traffic issue but also give your husband a true dining spot like he wants. I have a pic but can’t seem to post it.

ETA: googling t shaped kitchen island will get you a ton of results. I don’t like the look of a lot of them, but if you sort thru them you’ll find some that are really well done.

[zarapipe]

I would do option 2 with no island chairs and counter overhang to make the walking path wider. I would also ditch the cabinet at the end of the table to give you more flexibility. You could do an actual table and chairs with a leaf to make the table larger for guests. I think doing option 2 is going to save you a lot of money in the long run. Moving all
Of the pluming to the current dining room is going to be an additional cost. I would also do a only a single door, not a slider. In our kitchen we have a door out to the deck and it swings out. It’s not weird and I’ve never thought about how that isn’t normal, it just is. We do have the screen door (retractable) on the inside but since it retracts you don’t notice it too much.

[af1212]

The only thing I have to add to this is that if there is any way for you to get a full size fridge do it. I have 3 kids and a kitchen layout that doesn’t allow for anything other than a counter-depth fridge.

Not only is it tight to keep food and stuff in it for our family, it was a real pain when our fridge broke and we had to get a new one. We were so limited by choices of what we could buy.

Alternately if there is no way for you to have a full size fridge I would see if you can put an extra fridge and freezer in your basement or garage (climate dependent).

[annieh22]

Jan 30, 2021 8:15:20 GMT -5 memenee said:

Jan 29, 2021 10:26:41 GMT -5 jj said:

Yes, this is my husband’s main concern about option 2 right now. I agree, removing the bar seating is an easy fix to that piece.

One other option I’ve seen is a “T” shaped island where the top part of the T is the true island/the work space. And the long part of the T is attached and a little lower with the same countertop and serves as a “dining spot” like an attached table sort of. That may be another option. You could amend design 2 to do this. It would eliminate the poor traffic issue but also give your husband a true dining spot like he wants. I have a pic but can’t seem to post it.

ETA: googling t shaped kitchen island will get you a ton of results. I don’t like the look of a lot of them, but if you sort thru them you’ll find some that are really well done.

We have something like this. A smallish furniture-like island with 2 stool spots—one off each end and then we made a T our dining room table up to it. Nothing is attached or permanent and it makes for flexible space when we have guests. We pull the table out from the island and sometimes even spin it so it goes the other way if we have lots of people. I personally don’t like banquette seating, so this was our solution. A little out of the norm, but it works well for us. I can’t post pics, but there are pics here.

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If that worked, it is our island and table, but we normally have the table spun the other way to T up to the island.

[annieh22]

Also I like option 1, but would turn the island the other way and T the table up to it.
Or T the table to the wall with the 3 windows and not have banquette seating if there is space for that. Just pull the table out when you need more seating.

[pickel]

I like option 2 without seating at the bar. I like your seating area too!