@@@ Private schools have gotten obscene

[goldengirlz]

This article ... is something else:

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/04/private-schools-are-indefensible/618078/

“These schools surround kids who have every possible advantage with a literal embarrassment of riches—and then their graduates hoover up spots in the best colleges. Less than 2 percent of the nation’s students attend so-called independent schools. But 24 percent of Yale’s class of 2024 attended an independent school. At Princeton, that figure is 25 percent. At Brown and Dartmouth, it is higher still: 29 percent. ...

“Here is another big number that really needs to be investigated: More than 50 percent of the low-income Black students at elite colleges attended top private schools, according to Anthony Abraham Jack, the author of The Privileged Poor: How Elite Colleges Are Failing Disadvantaged Students. To some in education, this is a cause for celebration—the old route to social and professional success has within it some dedicated lanes for Black children from low-income families. To others, it is a cause for concern—if these children want to attend an elite college, their best bet by far is to spend their adolescence in a school where the experience of being Black is, for many, a painful one.“

[karinothing]

I haven't read the entire article yet, but Dalton this year a group of kids at Dalton started an IG about being black at Dalton and all of the racism they encountered and then a number of faculty signed an anti-racist proposal to overhaul staffing, curriculum and treatment of black students and parents were in an uproar over the school virtue signaling and starting ranting about how white kids were shamed for their skin color and told they were complicit in perpetuating racism. It was a flipping mess. That school is a mess.

Now on to read. . .

[sent]

They are private, they can set their own rules and do mostly whatever they want as long as it’s not illegal. And of course it is all about the money.

If anything, I had no idea that there are high schools that offer organic chemistry. I’ve never heard of a public school student taking organic chemistry while in high school though it has been a few decades since high school for me. There are many of these high schools around here in New Jersey. When it comes time, if my children want to attend one, I will try and make it happen. It sounds like there are many amazing opportunities offered and they are much easier to pursue compared to cobbling together similar opportunities in public school.

[erbear]

I'm not finished yet but I am angry that they are using Sidwell as the Quaker school example. There are real Quaker schools, that operate on the actual values of Quakerism, and there are Quaker schools in name only. Sidwell fits in that category and it annoys me. 

I'm sure I'll be back later since I fit in all the categories here...product of an independent high school, Yale grad, current teacher and parents at an independent (Quaker) school.

Ok, I finished. I am relieved to not have gone to or worked at these schools from this article. This is a whole other level of rich that I can't relate to. I am very interested in the last part of the article when they start to address non-white, non-affluent students. All of the stories described there are things I have seen and heard at my school throughout the years. All schools, but private schools in particular (though I would argue affluent, predominantly white suburban public schools fit this too) need to invest more time, money and effort into actually diversifying their student, family and faculty bodies if any change is going to happen going forward. At my school, which is very racially diverse (52% students of color last year), with a more racially diverse faculty than most schools, students are still experiencing being in a predominantly white space. And this is hugely problematic for a million reasons.

[goldengirlz]

Mar 12, 2021 9:00:30 GMT -5 karinothing said:

I haven't read the entire article yet, but Dalton this year a group of kids at Dalton started an IG about being black at Dalton and all of the racism they encountered and then a number of faculty signed an anti-racist proposal to overhaul staffing, curriculum and treatment of black students and parents were in an uproar over the school virtue signaling and starting ranting about how white kids were shamed for their skin color and told they were complicit in perpetuating racism. It was a flipping mess. That school is a mess.

Now on to read. . .

They cover this part at the end!

[sent]

Mar 12, 2021 9:32:15 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

Big “these are the people who will usher in The Hunger Games” vibes from this one.

Just imagine this kind of money being poured into public schools paired with the now-long-gone support of teachers mentioned early in the article.

Is there any scenario possible today in our country where this kind of money would go into public schools? Otherwise I think we can all just keep imagining.

I have not watched the Hunger Games so I don't understand your other comment.

[CheeringCharm]

Mar 12, 2021 10:24:52 GMT -5 sent said:

Mar 12, 2021 9:32:15 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

Big “these are the people who will usher in The Hunger Games” vibes from this one.

Just imagine this kind of money being poured into public schools paired with the now-long-gone support of teachers mentioned early in the article.

Is there any scenario possible today in our country where this kind of money would go into public schools? Otherwise I think we can all just keep imagining.

I have not watched the Hunger Games so I don't understand your other comment.

Well they do make the point in the article that donations to private schools could be taxed. Some of these schools are sitting on billion dollar endowments, which is crazy to me. I think it's crazy at the college level too. So I think that's one change that could realistically happen.

eta: Here's the quote from the article: 

"Parents at elite private schools sometimes grumble about taking nothing from public schools yet having to support them via their tax dollars. But the reverse proposition is a more compelling argument. Why should public-school parents—why should anyone—be expected to support private schools? Exeter has 1,100 students and a $1.3 billion endowment. Andover, which has 1,150 students, is on track to take in $400 million in its current capital campaign. And all of this cash, glorious cash, comes pouring into the countinghouse 100 percent tax-free."

[goldengirlz]

erbear — I didn’t get the sense that Sidwell was held up as the “Quaker school example.” She wasn’t saying that all Quaker schools are bad, but rather singling out this one as being Quaker in name only and corrupted by money and power. Like it SHOULD make people angry that they’re mentioned in this piece because (apparently) they deserve to be after the parents’ shenanigans.

[atexan]

Mar 12, 2021 0:14:41 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

“Here is another big number that really needs to be investigated: More than 50 percent of the low-income Black students at elite colleges attended top private schools, according to Anthony Abraham Jack, the author of The Privileged Poor: How Elite Colleges Are Failing Disadvantaged Students. To some in education, this is a cause for celebration—the old route to social and professional success has within it some dedicated lanes for Black children from low-income families. To others, it is a cause for concern—if these children want to attend an elite college, their best bet by far is to spend their adolescence in a school where the experience of being Black is, for many, a painful one.“

This is white savior bullshit.  Instead of supporting reforms that would lift up Black students everywhere, they get to pluck a lucky few and bring them into the fold.  Of course this also undercuts any possibility of power for the Black community.  Kiss the rich white peoples' asses and play by their rules if you want one of these golden tickets.

[bronxgirl]

I haven't read the article yet, but I am very much looking forward to it. Especially the part about Dalton because my cousins go there. I am a proud NYC public schools parent and I have a lot of resentment towards a lot of the private schools.

[sent]

Mar 12, 2021 10:27:01 GMT -5 CheeringCharm said:

Mar 12, 2021 10:24:52 GMT -5 sent said:

Is there any scenario possible today in our country where this kind of money would go into public schools? Otherwise I think we can all just keep imagining.

I have not watched the Hunger Games so I don't understand your other comment.

Well they do make the point in the article that donations to private schools could be taxed. Some of these schools are sitting on billion dollar endowments, which is crazy to me. I think it's crazy at the college level too. So I think that's one change that could realistically happen.

eta: Here's the quote from the article: 

"Parents at elite private schools sometimes grumble about taking nothing from public schools yet having to support them via their tax dollars. But the reverse proposition is a more compelling argument. Why should public-school parents—why should anyone—be expected to support private schools? Exeter has 1,100 students and a $1.3 billion endowment. Andover, which has 1,150 students, is on track to take in $400 million in its current capital campaign. And all of this cash, glorious cash, comes pouring into the countinghouse 100 percent tax-free."

I agree with that. I think the "Non-Profit" status is really abused by some big organizations out there that behave exactly like big businesses but are basically "grandfathered" in to their non-profit IRS status.  I am personally interested in this as there is a big insurance company out there I deal with daily that hides behind its non-profit status. There may have been non-profit ideals when they started their organization like 60 years ago but there is nothing non-profit about them anymore. These schools and colleges with their monster endowments sound like they are the same way.

How could this change happen at the political level? Who would change it? Do these groups have major lobbies that would prevent it from happening? (I assume they do.)

[CheeringCharm]

This is the crux with a lot of things that are wrong with our society right now. You shouldn't have to go to a small number of elite colleges - where demand vastly outstrips supply and is increasing all the time - to feel like you might have a chance to do interesting, fulfilling work and make enough to get by in a city.

"Why do these parents need so much reassurance? They “are finding that it’s harder and harder to get their children through the eye of the needle”—admitted into the best programs, all the way from kindergarten to college. But it’s more than that. The parents have a sense that their kids will be emerging into a bleaker landscape than they did. The brutal, winner-take-all economy won’t come for them—they’ve been grandfathered in. But they fear that it’s coming for their children, and that even a good education might not secure them a professional-class career."
.
.
.
Daniel Markovits, a professor at Yale Law School, coined the term meritocracy trap—a system that rewards an ever-growing share of society’s riches to an ever-shrinking pool of winners. “Today’s meritocrats still claim to get ahead through talent and effort, using means open to anyone,” he has written in these pages. “In practice, however, meritocracy now excludes everyone outside of a narrow elite.” This is a system that screws the poor, hollows out the middle class, and turns rich kids into exhausted, anxious, and maximally stressed-out adolescents who believe their future depends on getting into one of a very small group of colleges that routinely reject upwards of 90 percent of their applicants.

[CheeringCharm]

Mar 12, 2021 11:13:19 GMT -5 CheeringCharm said:

This is the crux with a lot of things that are wrong with our society right now. You shouldn't have to go to a small number of elite colleges - where demand vastly outstrips supply and is increasing all the time - to feel like you might have a chance to do interesting, fulfilling work and make enough to get by in a city.

"Why do these parents need so much reassurance? They “are finding that it’s harder and harder to get their children through the eye of the needle”—admitted into the best programs, all the way from kindergarten to college. But it’s more than that. The parents have a sense that their kids will be emerging into a bleaker landscape than they did. The brutal, winner-take-all economy won’t come for them—they’ve been grandfathered in. But they fear that it’s coming for their children, and that even a good education might not secure them a professional-class career."
.
.
.
Daniel Markovits, a professor at Yale Law School, coined the term meritocracy trap—a system that rewards an ever-growing share of society’s riches to an ever-shrinking pool of winners. “Today’s meritocrats still claim to get ahead through talent and effort, using means open to anyone,” he has written in these pages. “In practice, however, meritocracy now excludes everyone outside of a narrow elite.” This is a system that screws the poor, hollows out the middle class, and turns rich kids into exhausted, anxious, and maximally stressed-out adolescents who believe their future depends on getting into one of a very small group of colleges that routinely reject upwards of 90 percent of their applicants.

And to add to this, in my experience, this hasn't really been true. But we live in a smaller city where COL is a lot lower and we're Gen X so I'm sure both of those factor plays a big part in our experience. Neither of us went to an ivy league or similar school and we both ended up in good places. Same with most of our friends and neighbors.

But this perspective is SO prevalent in the media and has been since the Great Recession. So I kind of feel like these people must know something we don't and I should be more worried about the future, lol. It does make me worry for our kids even though we live somewhere where there isn't a lot of social pressure to opt into the "race to nowhere" if you don't want to. But I don't doubt that it is very real and very hard in cities like NY, DC, LA, SF, etc.

[Velar Fricative]

Mar 12, 2021 11:13:19 GMT -5 CheeringCharm said:

This is the crux with a lot of things that are wrong with our society right now. You shouldn't have to go to a small number of elite colleges - where demand vastly outstrips supply and is increasing all the time - to feel like you might have a chance to do interesting, fulfilling work and make enough to get by in a city.

"Why do these parents need so much reassurance? They “are finding that it’s harder and harder to get their children through the eye of the needle”—admitted into the best programs, all the way from kindergarten to college. But it’s more than that. The parents have a sense that their kids will be emerging into a bleaker landscape than they did. The brutal, winner-take-all economy won’t come for them—they’ve been grandfathered in. But they fear that it’s coming for their children, and that even a good education might not secure them a professional-class career."

Part of it is probably that if the parents themselves went to these private schools and then to the Ivies or Ivy-like colleges, that sets up the expectation that their kids must of course have those same opportunities. The idea that you can be successful without those kinds of schools may not register even with the obvious evidence in this country - but, if they're in their bubbles it's harder to see. So with each generation, this continues. 

[seeyalater52]

Mar 12, 2021 10:24:52 GMT -5 sent said:

Mar 12, 2021 9:32:15 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

Big “these are the people who will usher in The Hunger Games” vibes from this one.

Just imagine this kind of money being poured into public schools paired with the now-long-gone support of teachers mentioned early in the article.

Is there any scenario possible today in our country where this kind of money would go into public schools? Otherwise I think we can all just keep imagining.

I have not watched the Hunger Games so I don't understand your other comment.

Yes. A scenario where the people who have actual political power (particularly wealth) stopped opting out of the public school system and actually levering their power to change the way school funding operates and stop using private education as a way to hoard wealth and influence and pass it generationally. Start by taxing the rich and putting the money into schools and other vital services and do it in a way that doesn’t funnel that money right back into affluent communities (looking at you, school property tax funding.) This is not a difficult problem to solve from a policy level, and the political answer is actually really simple too.

It doesn’t have to be just “imagined” if we would all do our freaking part, but it’s very clear that liberal and even progressive people are not interested in actually walking the walk on this one.

[erbear]

Mar 12, 2021 10:32:35 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

erbear — I didn’t get the sense that Sidwell was held up as the “Quaker school example.” She wasn’t saying that all Quaker schools are bad, but rather singling out this one as being Quaker in name only and corrupted by money and power. Like it SHOULD make people angry that they’re mentioned in this piece because (apparently) they deserve to be after the parents’ shenanigans.

I hadn't heard that story before and WTF. That's next level crazy.

I get what you're saying. I just meant that, to me, Sidwell is a straight up prep school in the same vein as the NYC ones we see in the news all the time for stuff like this. It's not a Quaker school in practice, so it didn't seem necessary to even really take that angle.

I'm not sure that makes sense. I'm exhausted.

[goldengirlz]

Mar 12, 2021 9:09:28 GMT -5 sent said:

They are private, they can set their own rules and do mostly whatever they want as long as it’s not illegal. And of course it is all about the money.

If anything, I had no idea that there are high schools that offer organic chemistry. I’ve never heard of a public school student taking organic chemistry while in high school though it has been a few decades since high school for me. There are many of these high schools around here in New Jersey. When it comes time, if my children want to attend one, I will try and make it happen. It sounds like there are many amazing opportunities offered and they are much easier to pursue compared to cobbling together similar opportunities in public school.

There’s some degree of debate over whether these schools actually offer a superior education or whether the results merely correlate with socioeconomic status.

To me, this article is so damning that I’m surprised that that’s your takeaway. And I’ll fully admit (as someone who had an elite education) that I share many of same underlying biases — if THIS is the track to success, and H and I can afford to do it, wouldn’t we be crazy not to? If you can’t beat ‘em ... join them?

And then I think of the level of wealth, intensity and hypocrisy (not to mention classism and racism) at these schools and I really want no part of them. Do I really want my child to be so firmly entrenched in this bubble? Are these the values I want to instill in her? Is an “elite” education worth everything that goes along with it?

[sugarbear]

I will read this later today, and will likely pass along to my colleagues. I readily admit that I am part of the "problem" in more ways than one-- I teach at one and my children attend.

[goldengirlz]

Mar 12, 2021 11:32:43 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Mar 12, 2021 11:13:19 GMT -5 CheeringCharm said:

This is the crux with a lot of things that are wrong with our society right now. You shouldn't have to go to a small number of elite colleges - where demand vastly outstrips supply and is increasing all the time - to feel like you might have a chance to do interesting, fulfilling work and make enough to get by in a city.

"Why do these parents need so much reassurance? They “are finding that it’s harder and harder to get their children through the eye of the needle”—admitted into the best programs, all the way from kindergarten to college. But it’s more than that. The parents have a sense that their kids will be emerging into a bleaker landscape than they did. The brutal, winner-take-all economy won’t come for them—they’ve been grandfathered in. But they fear that it’s coming for their children, and that even a good education might not secure them a professional-class career."

Part of it is probably that if the parents themselves went to these private schools and then to the Ivies or Ivy-like colleges, that sets up the expectation that their kids must of course have those same opportunities. The idea that you can be successful without those kinds of schools may not register even with the obvious evidence in this country - but, if they're in their bubbles it's harder to see. So with each generation, this continues. 

I think this is part of it, although it seems like the article is trying to make the point that those alternative paths to success are rapidly shrinking. It’s like the way our parents’ generation was able to afford college by working a couple of after-school jobs, bought their first home by age 26 and retired with a nice pension after spending their entire career moving up the ranks at the same company — and are now wondering why Millennials are so whiny.

I think the other part of it is that an elite education has always been a status symbol and the rich like chasing status symbols. Their children don’t actually NEED the degree — with that level of wealth, they could set up a trust fund and their children would never need to work a day in their life — it’s more about being able to get something you can’t necessarily buy your way into.

[sporklemotion]

Mar 12, 2021 11:32:43 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Mar 12, 2021 11:13:19 GMT -5 CheeringCharm said:

This is the crux with a lot of things that are wrong with our society right now. You shouldn't have to go to a small number of elite colleges - where demand vastly outstrips supply and is increasing all the time - to feel like you might have a chance to do interesting, fulfilling work and make enough to get by in a city.

"Why do these parents need so much reassurance? They “are finding that it’s harder and harder to get their children through the eye of the needle”—admitted into the best programs, all the way from kindergarten to college. But it’s more than that. The parents have a sense that their kids will be emerging into a bleaker landscape than they did. The brutal, winner-take-all economy won’t come for them—they’ve been grandfathered in. But they fear that it’s coming for their children, and that even a good education might not secure them a professional-class career."

Part of it is probably that if the parents themselves went to these private schools and then to the Ivies or Ivy-like colleges, that sets up the expectation that their kids must of course have those same opportunities. The idea that you can be successful without those kinds of schools may not register even with the obvious evidence in this country - but, if they're in their bubbles it's harder to see. So with each generation, this continues. 

This has been my experience with families I know like this.
PDQ— I have tutored families like these for years, mostly for standardized tests. They are all looking at the same very small group of schools, and it takes a long time for schools that have now become highly selective but that weren’t always that way (Northeastern, for example) to be seen as worthy of applying to. I have had parents say that they didn’t shell out $50k+ on tuition to get into the same schools that they would have gotten into from public school.

I also remember tutoring a girl for the ISEE (used for middle school or high school admissions) and realizing that a big part of her parents’ emphasis on this came from the status associated with attending these schools. Both parents had gone to fancy private schools and all of their friends’ kids did, and the choice of school was a big deal.

[sent]

Mar 12, 2021 11:59:00 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Mar 12, 2021 9:09:28 GMT -5 sent said:

They are private, they can set their own rules and do mostly whatever they want as long as it’s not illegal. And of course it is all about the money.

If anything, I had no idea that there are high schools that offer organic chemistry. I’ve never heard of a public school student taking organic chemistry while in high school though it has been a few decades since high school for me. There are many of these high schools around here in New Jersey. When it comes time, if my children want to attend one, I will try and make it happen. It sounds like there are many amazing opportunities offered and they are much easier to pursue compared to cobbling together similar opportunities in public school.

There’s some degree of debate over whether these schools actually offer a superior education or whether the results merely correlate with socioeconomic status.

To me, this article is so damning that I’m surprised that that’s your takeaway. And I’ll fully admit (as someone who had an elite education) that I share many of same underlying biases — if THIS is the track to success, and H and I can afford to do it, wouldn’t we be crazy not to? If you can’t beat ‘em ... join them?

And then I think of the level of wealth, intensity and hypocrisy (not to mention classism and racism) at these schools and I really want no part of them. Do I really want my child to be so firmly entrenched in this bubble? Are these the values I want to instill in her? Is an “elite” education worth everything that goes along with it?

I mean the article is really long and touched on a lot of different things. The organic chem thing was the only "new" thing I learned that might be applicable for me to keep in mind for my kids - to look at what kinds of courses offered by various schools, public and private. I guess the helipad thing was new info, but I don't care so much if my child's school has one. 

I don't think that you automatically get vacuumed into that bubble if you get your education at one. My philosophy since I was young has been to take advantage of what's offered and filter out the BS when it comes to education. I think the only way my kids will find themselves at helipad-levels of wealth in their futures is if they start the equivalent of FB in their times. Also yes white people still hold the majority of power and wealth in this country and I don't think this will drastically change in my lifetime as this article shows the elite are mad that their schools would dare try and teach inclusion. So I have to prepare my kids to adapt and deal with their brown skin with whatever advantages I can give them that my parents could not as class divide grows. 

[plutosmoon]

PDQ
poofed personal part

My own child attends public school, but I won't say knowing what I know that I haven't investigated the private school options. I know exactly the kind of doors private school opens and since I work in this system, I'm very familiar with how to afford it, even though these schools cost more than my annual salary. I also really don't think the private education is better, but the opportunities associated with it could be. I am a strong believer in public schools I attended them for all my education, including public college and a public grad school, I've done alright in my career, so I'll likely keep my child in public school, but I can't say it's not tempting.

[bugandbibs]

I was one of those minority kids attending and elite independent day school. I absolutely received a quality education that turned me into a thinker and explorer (it even included organic chemistry, lol). It was also a crash course into how to whitewash myself into a package that could be successful and shine without threatening fragile egos too much. It did open doors for me and was a factor in my ability to attend a private university (scholarships, etc).

The everyday racism and micro aggressions have taken me a long time to process as an adult. Every time I was not picked for something or told to be less me (ie be quiet) turned into a pattern that I have had to unlearn. It wasn’t until my mid-thirties that I really was able to embrace my own power and identity.

[redheadbaker]

Mar 12, 2021 11:42:14 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Mar 12, 2021 10:24:52 GMT -5 sent said:

Is there any scenario possible today in our country where this kind of money would go into public schools? Otherwise I think we can all just keep imagining.

I have not watched the Hunger Games so I don't understand your other comment.

Yes. A scenario where the people who have actual political power (particularly wealth) stopped opting out of the public school system and actually levering their power to change the way school funding operates and stop using private education as a way to hoard wealth and influence and pass it generationally. Start by taxing the rich and putting the money into schools and other vital services and do it in a way that doesn’t funnel that money right back into affluent communities (looking at you, school property tax funding.) This is not a difficult problem to solve from a policy level, and the political answer is actually really simple too.

It doesn’t have to be just “imagined” if we would all do our freaking part, but it’s very clear that liberal and even progressive people are not interested in actually walking the walk on this one.

Oh, this is SO timely considering a convo I had yesterday in a Facebook group .... 

[aprilsails]

Mar 12, 2021 11:59:00 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Mar 12, 2021 9:09:28 GMT -5 sent said:

They are private, they can set their own rules and do mostly whatever they want as long as it’s not illegal. And of course it is all about the money.

If anything, I had no idea that there are high schools that offer organic chemistry. I’ve never heard of a public school student taking organic chemistry while in high school though it has been a few decades since high school for me. There are many of these high schools around here in New Jersey. When it comes time, if my children want to attend one, I will try and make it happen. It sounds like there are many amazing opportunities offered and they are much easier to pursue compared to cobbling together similar opportunities in public school.

There’s some degree of debate over whether these schools actually offer a superior education or whether the results merely correlate with socioeconomic status.

To me, this article is so damning that I’m surprised that that’s your takeaway. And I’ll fully admit (as someone who had an elite education) that I share many of same underlying biases — if THIS is the track to success, and H and I can afford to do it, wouldn’t we be crazy not to? If you can’t beat ‘em ... join them?

And then I think of the level of wealth, intensity and hypocrisy (not to mention classism and racism) at these schools and I really want no part of them. Do I really want my child to be so firmly entrenched in this bubble? Are these the values I want to instill in her? Is an “elite” education worth everything that goes along with it?

@@@ A close friend was just offered full private school tuition for her child from her in laws. Her husband attended private school and while he has done well for himself, her education and career attainments greatly outstrip his and she came from “the wrong side of the tracks” so to speak with immigrant parents. She is also Middle Eastern heritage, and worries for the racism their children could possibly face in a private school environment. We’re having all these same conversations. I’ve passed the article along to her. It’s an interesting conversation because another close friend of ours attended the local private school and is now a super doctor (multiple degrees including Harvard postdoc) and just bought a $5M house. She came from a family of doctors and has obvious privileges, but she’s done damn well for herself as well.

We’re in Canada, so the differences in education are not necessarily as obvious, but there remain private schools and parents willing to pay the money.

[NewOrleans]

Mar 12, 2021 9:09:28 GMT -5 sent said:

They are private, they can set their own rules and do mostly whatever they want as long as it’s not illegal. And of course it is all about the money.

If anything, I had no idea that there are high schools that offer organic chemistry. I’ve never heard of a public school student taking organic chemistry while in high school though it has been a few decades since high school for me. There are many of these high schools around here in New Jersey. When it comes time, if my children want to attend one, I will try and make it happen. It sounds like there are many amazing opportunities offered and they are much easier to pursue compared to cobbling together similar opportunities in public school.

This is what you got out of the article?

Not that you care, but AP Bio and AP Chemistry both included organic chem even back in the 90’s. 
I live in a huge poor district in a poor city.  They offer AP Environmental Science, even.  Dance classes for gym. Mandarin.  Broadcasting.  2/3 of its students are from low-income situations.  
Sounds cobbled together.  
I really wonder about you.

[Deleted]

Mar 12, 2021 9:41:09 GMT -5 erbear said:

I'm not finished yet but I am angry that they are using Sidwell as the Quaker school example. There are real Quaker schools, that operate on the actual values of Quakerism, and there are Quaker schools in name only. Sidwell fits in that category and it annoys me. 

I'm sure I'll be back later since I fit in all the categories here...product of an independent high school, Yale grad, current teacher and parents at an independent (Quaker) school.

Ok, I finished. I am relieved to not have gone to or worked at these schools from this article. This is a whole other level of rich that I can't relate to. I am very interested in the last part of the article when they start to address non-white, non-affluent students. All of the stories described there are things I have seen and heard at my school throughout the years. All schools, but private schools in particular (though I would argue affluent, predominantly white suburban public schools fit this too) need to invest more time, money and effort into actually diversifying their student, family and faculty bodies if any change is going to happen going forward. At my school, which is very racially diverse (52% students of color last year), with a more racially diverse faculty than most schools, students are still experiencing being in a predominantly white space. And this is hugely problematic for a million reasons.

You really need to listen to the podcast "Nice White Parents". You've molded yourself along those lines.

[aliciabella]

Mar 12, 2021 11:56:25 GMT -5 erbear said:

Mar 12, 2021 10:32:35 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

erbear — I didn’t get the sense that Sidwell was held up as the “Quaker school example.” She wasn’t saying that all Quaker schools are bad, but rather singling out this one as being Quaker in name only and corrupted by money and power. Like it SHOULD make people angry that they’re mentioned in this piece because (apparently) they deserve to be after the parents’ shenanigans.

I hadn't heard that story before and WTF. That's next level crazy.

I get what you're saying. I just meant that, to me, Sidwell is a straight up prep school in the same vein as the NYC ones we see in the news all the time for stuff like this. It's not a Quaker school in practice, so it didn't seem necessary to even really take that angle.

I'm not sure that makes sense. I'm exhausted.

I fully agree with you.

I am pretty sure you are from the Philly area where there are quite a bit of really good Quaker schools. I think in practice they are good, fair schools but regardless they still charge money which means you need money. That is not to say they don't offer scholarships or reduced tuition but most of these schools don't offer transportation and can be located 30 miles away and/or if you don't know people who went to these private schools you wouldn't even be away they existed to a large percentage of the population.

I don't even see any answer to fix this. As you noted, suburban school districts have turned into a game of money hierarchy where if you have 1/2 a million you can buy your way into the neighborhood. Bottom line, people who have money want to keep their money. This is why we forces taxes because no one is paying the shit voluntarily and with the culture in this country, I sadly see no change.

[frlcb]

Mar 12, 2021 9:00:30 GMT -5 karinothing said:

I haven't read the entire article yet, but Dalton this year a group of kids at Dalton started an IG about being black at Dalton and all of the racism they encountered and then a number of faculty signed an anti-racist proposal to overhaul staffing, curriculum and treatment of black students and parents were in an uproar over the school virtue signaling and starting ranting about how white kids were shamed for their skin color and told they were complicit in perpetuating racism. It was a flipping mess. That school is a mess.

Now on to read. . .

I think this happened at most private/independent schools in big cities. We have a lot of independent schools in my city (a major city in the SE) and they all had one of these IG accounts. 

[sent]

Mar 12, 2021 12:53:07 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Mar 12, 2021 9:09:28 GMT -5 sent said:

They are private, they can set their own rules and do mostly whatever they want as long as it’s not illegal. And of course it is all about the money.

If anything, I had no idea that there are high schools that offer organic chemistry. I’ve never heard of a public school student taking organic chemistry while in high school though it has been a few decades since high school for me. There are many of these high schools around here in New Jersey. When it comes time, if my children want to attend one, I will try and make it happen. It sounds like there are many amazing opportunities offered and they are much easier to pursue compared to cobbling together similar opportunities in public school.

This is what you got out of the article?

Not that you care, but AP Bio and AP Chemistry both included organic chem even back in the 90’s. 
I live in a huge poor district in a poor city.  They offer AP Environmental Science, even.  Dance classes for gym. Mandarin.  Broadcasting.  2/3 of its students are from low-income situations.  
Sounds cobbled together.  
I really wonder about you.

I already wrote another post above about this but to clarify - 

I took AP Bio & AP Chem. They were nothing like the Organic Chem I took in college. When I read the part "the others they met in college had already taken organic chem at their private schools and were more prepared," I assumed the private school was offering the kind I took in college.

The opportunities you described in your school district during the school day is not what I was thinking when I said "cobbled together." Right now I am cobbling together what to do with my 2nd grader for the summer. I'm not looking forward to 10 more summers of this. Maybe I'm wrong, but I assume that going to a private school means they would have more tailored opportunities for summer activities than what me and google and the local mom's FB board can research and enroll in ourselves. I did a lot of my own researching to find summer activities on a national level as the internet was becoming a thing. No fancy HS or college advisors had any clue where to point me besides what was available locally. The other part of cobbling is when I was in high school, the kids who were truly brilliant and already exceeded the opportunities at my well funded public HS had to have a very motivated parent get them into a college course at the local SUNY and then convince the school to let the kid attend the course. It sounds like all of this is reduced or eliminated at these schools if they're taking college level organic chem in HS.