Crawl Space clean out?

[winecat]

Has anyone had their crawl space cleaned out?  I'm not delusional enough to think that I can dig out a basement but my crawl space is Silence of the Lambs creepy. 

Part of it is pretty inaccessible due to the amount of soil in it.  I really need decent access to it to redo my waterlines; some are still galvanized.  I'd love to put radiant heat on the underside of the floors accessible from the crawl space so that I don't have to have a furnace in my crawl space.  It's really hard to get in/out of so changing filters is a chore.  (And I couldn't do it after my car accident because it requires doing a tricep pushup to get out.)  My furnace is on its side sitting on a few bricks.  

I've asked in a couple of FB groups and on NextDoor what the best process is.  My house is built in 1889 so I want to be sure that whatever is done doesn't damage the foundation.  

Has anyone done this on an old house?  What was your process?  

Do you think I should hire a structural engineer or some other expert?  

Unfortunately I've had a few bad experiences with recommended contractors and I feel like I need to know the process because I don't trust that they will do things correctly.  I'm not sure I'll be able to find enough contractors to be able to compare processes and bids.

The framed hole in the brick is the access to the 'crawl space' under my kitchen and bath.  It's so full of dirt and debris that someone would have to shimmy to do any work.  And yes, those are landscaping bricks holding back dirt.  I was a dumb 20-something when I bought my house and am now priced out of Denver so I have to make it work.  

  

[aspentosh]

Following along. I would love to clean out ours as well. Our house isn't as old (1984) though.

[winecat]

aspentosh- So far nobody on Nextdoor or FB has been helpful. I've gotten "You have better access than me" or "Rip up your kitchen floors" or "The best people for old homes often don't have websites." The one local company that I found that has done similar jobs per their website say that they give 10% discount for cash payment, not check, which makes me a bit nervous about them and their business practices since they might be into tax evasion.

[tacokick]

Apr 20, 2021 15:42:38 GMT -5 winecat said:

aspentosh- So far nobody on Nextdoor or FB has been helpful. I've gotten "You have better access than me" or "Rip up your kitchen floors" or "The best people for old homes often don't have websites." The one local company that I found that has done similar jobs per their website say that they give 10% discount for cash payment, not check, which makes me a bit nervous about them and their business practices since they might be into tax evasion.

I know a lot of smaller businesses that give discounts for cash to avoid paying credit card fees and to avoid bounced checks. I wouldn’t worry about it if they get good reviews and are bonded/licensed etc

[rondonalddo]

By "clean out," do you mean you want to have it excavated? We had one of our crawlspaces excavated by hand as part of a major structural repair. It was not excavated to a full cellar or anything, it's still a tight crawlspace, just not as horribly tight as before! It just needed to be big enough for the contractor to replace the sill plate and beams and joists. Our house was built in 1901 and has a rubble foundation on a but one side. We had a structural engineer do the original assesment of the situation, approve the contractor's plan, and sign off on the contractor's work, but it was a whole lot of stuff besides the excavation.

[rondonalddo]

Oh and the company that did the work was a restoration and waterproofing company. Look for crawlspace repair businesses.

The actual excavation by hand involved workers literally hand shoveling dirt into buckets and emptying them into a dumpster.

[winecat]

Apr 20, 2021 16:57:14 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Apr 20, 2021 15:42:38 GMT -5 winecat said:

aspentosh - So far nobody on Nextdoor or FB has been helpful. I've gotten "You have better access than me" or "Rip up your kitchen floors" or "The best people for old homes often don't have websites." The one local company that I found that has done similar jobs per their website say that they give 10% discount for cash payment, not check, which makes me a bit nervous about them and their business practices since they might be into tax evasion.

I know a lot of smaller businesses that give discounts for cash to avoid paying credit card fees and to avoid bounced checks. I wouldn’t worry about it if they get good reviews and are bonded/licensed etc

I've only seen businesses treat cash and check the same.  They charge a fee for credit cards (2.85%) which is fairly standard.  It's the 10% discount for cash cash that makes me nervous whether it's warranted or not.  

[tacokick]

Apr 20, 2021 22:53:47 GMT -5 winecat said:

Apr 20, 2021 16:57:14 GMT -5 tacokick said:

I know a lot of smaller businesses that give discounts for cash to avoid paying credit card fees and to avoid bounced checks. I wouldn’t worry about it if they get good reviews and are bonded/licensed etc

I've only seen businesses treat cash and check the same.  They charge a fee for credit cards (2.85%) which is fairly standard.  It's the 10% discount for cash cash that makes me nervous whether it's warranted or not.  

Maybe it’s regional? I’ve frequently been told I’d get a 5-10% discount for cash over a check.

[winecat]

Apr 20, 2021 21:51:05 GMT -5 rondonalddo said:

By "clean out," do you mean you want to have it excavated? We had one of our crawlspaces excavated by hand as part of a major structural repair. It was not excavated to a full cellar or anything, it's still a tight crawlspace, just not as horribly tight as before! It just needed to be big enough for the contractor to replace the sill plate and beams and joists. Our house was built in 1901 and has a rubble foundation on a but one side. We had a structural engineer do the original assesment of the situation, approve the contractor's plan, and sign off on the contractor's work, but it was a whole lot of stuff besides the excavation.

I want it accessible enough to be able to replace the waterlines, move the plumbing in the bathroom at some point, and add radiant heating to the underside of the floors so I don't have to have a furnace.  I'm not sure if any foundation work needs to be done.  I'm hoping it won't but wouldn't be surprised.  

How tight was your crawl space and what did you increase it to?  The deepest part of my crawl space is probably 3 1/2 feet deep.  The other part would require someone to shimmy to get through it.  

Did you hire your own structural engineer?  Thanks for this!  I was thinking that I'd need to hire one but wasn't sure.  

[winecat]

Apr 20, 2021 22:57:57 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Apr 20, 2021 22:53:47 GMT -5 winecat said:

I've only seen businesses treat cash and check the same.  They charge a fee for credit cards (2.85%) which is fairly standard.  It's the 10% discount for cash cash that makes me nervous whether it's warranted or not.  

Maybe it’s regional? I’ve frequently been told I’d get a 5-10% discount for cash over a check.

Maybe?  Good to know that it's not unusual elsewhere.  I've never seen it but this is also my first time looking at doing major home repairs.  I spent almost $5k on my VW's rebuilt engine and that guy would only take a check.  I think that's the only company I've hired that wouldn't take credit card, regardless of a charge for a card or discount for cash/check.  

[winecat]

Apr 20, 2021 21:53:56 GMT -5 rondonalddo said:

Oh and the company that did the work was a restoration and waterproofing company. Look for crawlspace repair businesses.

The actual excavation by hand involved workers literally hand shoveling dirt into buckets and emptying them into a dumpster.

I was afraid of that.  Restoration companies here aren't required to have a license like they would if they were a GC, plumber, electrician, etc..  

Did they decide to do the excavation by hand vs. another means because of limited access, advice of the structural engineer, or another reason?  How many square feet were you excavating?  Did the structural engineer know that you'd have to do the foundation repair by looking at your house initially?  How long did the soil removal take?  Did you put vapor barrier down?  Sorry for all the questions but you're the only person who has done something similar.  

[aprilsails]

My Dad did this for our grandparents cottage when I was about 12. All of us kids pitched in to help. We did it with shovels but in the end we opened up the entire space under the cottage to about 5.5’ tall and added a cellar door type access from the exterior. My Dad went to college to be an architect so I’m certain he felt comfortable doing the work and shoring up the foundation as necessary. In the end we put down a poured concrete flour that we did ourselves with buckets of concrete mixed one at a time. It was still pretty rough but definitely an improvement over dirt. We used the crawl space for storage for watersports gear. In retrospect, why the hell didn’t he just build a shed? That would have been easier.

I have a lot of family that work in the trades and this is the kind of work that is often done as a cash job. I know they are likely dodging taxes on some of the work they do. Shrugs. They are the ones taking the risk.

[Wallflower]

Apr 20, 2021 23:26:39 GMT -5 winecat said:

Apr 20, 2021 22:57:57 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Maybe it’s regional? I’ve frequently been told I’d get a 5-10% discount for cash over a check.

Maybe?  Good to know that it's not unusual elsewhere.  I've never seen it but this is also my first time looking at doing major home repairs.  I spent almost $5k on my VW's rebuilt engine and that guy would only take a check.  I think that's the only company I've hired that wouldn't take credit card, regardless of a charge for a card or discount for cash/check.  

I get that a lot around here with small, independent trades people (upstate NY). I do think it might be regional but I do believe it's about avoiding taxes - I definitely life in a reddish-purple area.

I don't like it, but sometimes that person is still the best for the job. And then I have a hard time paying that extra amount for my *suspicion* that they aren't paying their taxes. But maybe I'm just cheap with a poor will to stick to my beliefs.

[rondonalddo]

Copying and pasting your questions. This work was performed 10 years ago, so I'm having to rely on memory and emails lol. 

How tight was your crawl space and what did you increase it to? I don't know the actual depth that it was except that it was too tight for our home inspector to get a good look at it (a major red flag, in retrospect!). Even the parts you could get to were a literal belly crawl. I don't know the measurement of the crawlspace now, either, and it's a massive pain to get to it (access is through the cellar, which has a tricky access door built into our back patio), but I think it's still pretty tight. I haven't been in there myself but my husband has. 

Did you hire your own structural engineer? Yes. We hired the structural engineer because of other problems, though. (Considerable damage was revealed by...a skunk burrowing into the sill plate and sheltering in the crawlspace.) The structural engineer gave us a report on everything that needed to be done, including a mention of excavation required for beams/piers/foundation pad placement. 

Did they decide to do the excavation by hand vs. another means because of limited access, advice of the structural engineer, or another reason? Limited access. There was no other way to do it. 

How many square feet were you excavating? I'd estimate about 500 square feet. None of the documents I have on file show the actual measurements. 

Did the structural engineer know that you'd have to do the foundation repair by looking at your house initially? The home inspector didn't, but the structural engineer did when he did his assessment. And there was an area that he could not access. Once the excavation was done, more damage was found and more repair was required. 

How long did the soil removal take? I don't remember how long it actually took, but the proposal document has it taking 5 days. 

Did you put vapor barrier down? Yes.

You didn't ask about this, but during the contract negotiation, I made it clear that we reserved the right to hire an engineer to inspect the work performed. Our contractor was great and worked closely with the engineer to create the plan, update it when more damage was revealed, and inspect completed work. You might not need to do all that for just an excavation, but just putting it out there. 

[aspentosh]

aprilsails, as a grown adult, you couldn't pay me to go into our crawl space. H went in there many years ago to fix some insulation that fell and put down mice traps, and he was my hero for that.

So mad props to you for doing that as a kid.

[aprilsails]

Apr 21, 2021 9:11:28 GMT -5 aspentosh said:

aprilsails, as a grown adult, you couldn't pay me to go into our crawl space. H went in there many years ago to fix some insulation that fell and put down mice traps, and he was my hero for that.

So mad props to you for doing that as a kid.

I don’t remember it being that bad but I was not a squeamish child by any means. I think it helped that we were doing a big excavation and started outside the floor plate of the cottage digging down steps. My Dad and my uncles did the vast majority of the work. Us kids just helped.

My Sister is terrified of spiders and wouldn’t go in there. Jokes on her since she became a structural engineer (mostly bridges) and has to go into crawl spaces and ducts and under bridges where there are so many spiders all the time for work. She did not think through that part of the job.

[hbomdiggity]

Apr 21, 2021 9:11:28 GMT -5 aspentosh said:

aprilsails, as a grown adult, you couldn't pay me to go into our crawl space. H went in there many years ago to fix some insulation that fell and put down mice traps, and he was my hero for that.

So mad props to you for doing that as a kid.

Agreed. We had a small crawl space under our last house and DH had to go under there a few times. He barely fit. Hell no.

[winecat]

Apr 21, 2021 9:03:43 GMT -5 rondonalddo said:

Copying and pasting your questions. This work was performed 10 years ago, so I'm having to rely on memory and emails lol. 

How tight was your crawl space and what did you increase it to? I don't know the actual depth that it was except that it was too tight for our home inspector to get a good look at it (a major red flag, in retrospect!). Even the parts you could get to were a literal belly crawl. I don't know the measurement of the crawlspace now, either, and it's a massive pain to get to it (access is through the cellar, which has a tricky access door built into our back patio), but I think it's still pretty tight. I haven't been in there myself but my husband has. 
    ugh.  Yes.  Mine is the same way and I should have thought about it being a major red flag too but I was young and     dumb.  

Did you hire your own structural engineer? Yes. We hired the structural engineer because of other problems, though. (Considerable damage was revealed by...a skunk burrowing into the sill plate and sheltering in the crawlspace.) The structural engineer gave us a report on everything that needed to be done, including a mention of excavation required for beams/piers/foundation pad placement. 
    I'm not aware of current structural damage.  Not much has shifted since I've owned it but I am a bit worried that     there might be something lurking that I'm not aware of.  I'm a lot worried about what might happen if it is the dirt     that's holding it up.  

Did they decide to do the excavation by hand vs. another means because of limited access, advice of the structural engineer, or another reason? Limited access. There was no other way to do it. 
    In the FB groups I've posted in, people have said that they had their kitchen floors removed and dirt removed from     there.  But none of them lived in the house while it happened.  Did you live in your house while the work was going     on or did you move out temporarily?

How many square feet were you excavating? I'd estimate about 500 square feet. None of the documents I have on file show the actual measurements. 
    I'm guessing that's about the area of my house that I need to have worked on.  

Did the structural engineer know that you'd have to do the foundation repair by looking at your house initially? The home inspector didn't, but the structural engineer did when he did his assessment. And there was an area that he could not access. Once the excavation was done, more damage was found and more repair was required. 
    Did you have the same company do the excavation and foundation repair?  

How long did the soil removal take? I don't remember how long it actually took, but the proposal document has it taking 5 days. 
    That wasn't as bad as I was expecting!  

Did you put vapor barrier down? Yes.

You didn't ask about this, but during the contract negotiation, I made it clear that we reserved the right to hire an engineer to inspect the work performed. Our contractor was great and worked closely with the engineer to create the plan, update it when more damage was revealed, and inspect completed work. You might not need to do all that for just an excavation, but just putting it out there. 
    Thank you so much for mentioning this.  I hadn't thought of it.  If you think of anything else I should know, please     message or tag me.  

Thank you!!  

[ellipses84]

I think you need someone who does hand excavation for residential. Once it’s cleaned out, I’d hire a separate structural engineer to do an inspection (it’s ok if the company who cleans it out gives you a couple recs for engineers they work with a lot). Someone’s with specific things like this there’s only 1-2 companies that do it.

[winecat]

I just got a very general quote and to dig out 1-2 feet of dirt from 500-600 sq ft would be $15-25k. FML. Digging out 2-4 feet would be $25-45k and a 'full basement' dig out would be $100k.