Hot water heaters

[Susie]

I know, super exciting topic...!

We need to replace our hot water heater in the near term, which is not a huge surprise from our home inspection report 6 months ago.  The house currently has a 50 gal. natural gas hot water heater.  H commented that 50 gal. seems a bit excessive, that we used to have a much smaller one at our old house.  From a water use perspective, this house is larger by one bathroom, plus an outdoor shower that we've never used.  It had a pool and a hot tub, but we've gotten rid of one and are getting rid of the other.  So, we are a family of 4-5 (depending on whether my dad is here), with 2.5 baths plus usual dishwasher/etc. use.

I'm open to considering electric/moving away from natural gas.  Our house has all natural gas appliances (water heater, furnace, dryer, range, grill, and fireplace) and hot water is one of the ones I have no attachment to gas.

As far as tank vs. tankless, in the past we've always gotten tank because they're less expensive, and we tend to need to replace more frequently than average due to hard water issues.

Any recommendations or advice?

[tacokick]

I don’t see any upsides to downgrading if you stay with a traditional one. 50 gallons is what is recommended for a family your size. I’d think as your kids get older you might want to be able to take back to back hot showers or do dishes while they are bathing or doing laundry on their own schedules etc.

I’ve felt like the water temp wasn’t consistent when I’ve been in places with a tankless. A friend had an electric one installed. She had to replace it 7 years later which seems pretty common but also made it a lot more expensive both up front and in the long run than her old gas tank style because the yearly energy savings wasn’t great. She also didn’t like that it would go out when they lost electricity. Gas ones seem to last more like 20 years so I’d chose that over electric.

Our old water heater did flood the basement years ago but it’s not a finished space and while a pain, ultimately everything was fine.

[Susie]

Dec 30, 2021 14:24:53 GMT -5 tacokick said:

She also didn’t like that it would go out when they lost electricity. 

We have a Generac whole house generator on order for delivery and install in March, so this is the one piece I am not concerned about!

We actually used to lose hot water when we lost power at our old house even though it was also gas, because there were electric components.  IDK if there's a way around that.  We won't have to worry about it soon enough.

We've lived in our current town since 2008 (two different houses but same town water) and we've never gotten >10 years out of a water heater unfortunately.  This is at least the 3rd one we're buying between 2 houses.  So I'm not betting hard on longevity no matter what we decide.

[deadwing]

I had to replace my water heater emergently a couple of years ago (the old one started leaking badly). I didn't get much choice in what I could get on short notice. I ended up with another natural gas model with a 40 gallon tank. It gets the job done.

I also like the idea of a tankless heater on paper, but I've been underwhelmed when I've stayed in a house with one. I feel like they promise "instant" hot water, but it doesn't seem any faster than from a tank. In both instances there is likely cold water in the pipe that needs to be expelled before the hot water will be felt. In my current house, my kitchen is directly above my hot water tank, so I get hot water very quickly to the sink. The bathroom is a longer run.

I'm not sure if this is actually helpful...

[tacokick]

Dec 30, 2021 15:11:48 GMT -5 Susie said:

Dec 30, 2021 14:24:53 GMT -5 tacokick said:

She also didn’t like that it would go out when they lost electricity. 

We have a Generac whole house generator on order for delivery and install in March, so this is the one piece I am not concerned about!

We actually used to lose hot water when we lost power at our old house even though it was also gas, because there were electric components.  IDK if there's a way around that.  We won't have to worry about it soon enough.

We've lived in our current town since 2008 (two different houses but same town water) and we've never gotten >10 years out of a water heater unfortunately.  This is at least the 3rd one we're buying between 2 houses.  So I'm not betting hard on longevity no matter what we decide.

That’s too bad about your water heater life. I’ve never had that issue. We’ve also always had hot water during power outages. I guess it depends on the model and your water.

I only brought up about the frequent replacement because installing the tankless was so much more than a traditional that she ended spending twice as much money by “upgrading” to electric tankless than she would have had she bought another gas powered traditional heater and now is sort of stuck with it.

[redheadk]

I would not downgrade. We have 2 40-gallon gas hot water heaters, in tandem. That is definitely overkill but there were days that I noticed we were running out of hot water with a family of 3 when one was out but the other was working.

We debated tankless but it was not a good choice for us, mostly because we had to replace both on very short notice, we have hard water, and the likelihood of breaking even on cost vs savings was very iffy given the expected lifespan for our area/hardwater. The primary decision driver was ability to get on very short notice, though.

We stayed with gas (again, time frame, we were leaving for vacation and had a house/dog sitter coming so needed them replaced in 24 hours) but we've appreciated having hot water during power outages many times so I've been happy to have them. If your generator will power your electric water heaters then I'd be more open to that.

[pierogigirl]

We had to replace with tankless because the furnace room is under stairs and newer tanks are bigger than older ones and it wouldn't fit. It's been at least 3 years and we have no complaints. There is some annual maintenance that is easy for DH to do. We also have hard water. We don't have hot water when the power goes out, which is infrequent (and we do have a generator if it is out for longer than a day or two).

[Susie]

Dec 30, 2021 18:46:18 GMT -5 redheadk said:

If your generator will power your electric water heaters then I'd be more open to that.

We had the load calculations done to power every circuit in the house, with headroom because we plan to replace our gas range with dual fuel and will want the oven to work too.  We didn't include electric water heater in the calculation, but I'm sure it would be doable.

[clairebear]

As a real estate person, I wouldn't suggest a tankless. I've never met someone who was completely happy with theirs. It is expensive to purchase, repair, and dies quicker than tank options. Personally, we have a 40 gallon tank and it's fine for our 4 person family. In the evenings we run the dishwasher, two kids baths, and one adult shower (H showers in the morning). We typically don't run out. If we have guests (which is infrequent) we do have to stagger showers, but it's nbd. My MIL has a 50 gallon for a 2 person household which is overkill. But the price difference was minimal so she went for it.

[Roc A Bee]

We have had tankless in the last 2 houses. It isn’t instant hot, but you never run out. I appreciate this with a teen who showers forever.

[dr.girlfriend]

We have a tankless in our new addition and love it. Granted we've only had it for a few years so I can't speak to longevity or anything but unlimited hot water is awesome.  I also don't think we would have had room to put a big hot water tank anywhere.

[aprilsails]

Do not do tankless, particularly if you are on a metered water system. It sucks to wait minutes every time you want hot water. We would put extra water in a jug while waiting for it to heat up to water plants, etc, but we didn’t need all of it and much of it went to waste.

In my area, at this time, electric would be more expensive. We went with gas for that reason. Same size house, 50 gallon, and it’s very efficient.

In terms of your generator calculation, the electric hot water heater is dicey. They can pull up to 5500W at one time for a 50 gallon tank, depending on the wattage of the heating element. Most whole home generators are in the 10,000-13,000W range. The issue I can see is that you might need to unplug it and only turn it on when you know you aren’t using other appliances or you might overload the generator.

[Susie]

Jan 2, 2022 13:59:05 GMT -5 aprilsails said:

Do not do tankless, particularly if you are on a metered water system. It sucks to wait minutes every time you want hot water. We would put extra water in a jug while waiting for it to heat up to water plants, etc, but we didn’t need all of it and much of it went to waste.

In my area, at this time, electric would be more expensive. We went with gas for that reason. Same size house, 50 gallon, and it’s very efficient.

In terms of your generator calculation, the electric hot water heater is dicey. They can pull up to 5500W at one time for a 50 gallon tank, depending on the wattage of the heating element. Most whole home generators are in the 10,000-13,000W range. The issue I can see is that you might need to unplug it and only turn it on when you know you aren’t using other appliances or you might overload the generator.

We ordered a 24 kw generator, so we have quite a bit of headspace.  But your point overall is well taken.  I had not considered the impact of tankless on the water bill.  We are on metered water, so that sounds like another reason to stick with a tank.

[aprilsails]

Jan 3, 2022 9:49:18 GMT -5 Susie said:

Jan 2, 2022 13:59:05 GMT -5 aprilsails said:

Do not do tankless, particularly if you are on a metered water system. It sucks to wait minutes every time you want hot water. We would put extra water in a jug while waiting for it to heat up to water plants, etc, but we didn’t need all of it and much of it went to waste.

In my area, at this time, electric would be more expensive. We went with gas for that reason. Same size house, 50 gallon, and it’s very efficient.

In terms of your generator calculation, the electric hot water heater is dicey. They can pull up to 5500W at one time for a 50 gallon tank, depending on the wattage of the heating element. Most whole home generators are in the 10,000-13,000W range. The issue I can see is that you might need to unplug it and only turn it on when you know you aren’t using other appliances or you might overload the generator.

We ordered a 24 kw generator, so we have quite a bit of headspace.  But your point overall is well taken.  I had not considered the impact of tankless on the water bill.  We are on metered water, so that sounds like another reason to stick with a tank.

. Whoa, a 24 kW generator is huge. You’re ready for electric cars and everything. I’m an electrical engineer and I put smaller ones in schools, lol.

[kitty]

We’ve had a natural gas Navien tankless for about 5 years and absolutely love it. We have an extra loop plumbed in that circulates a small amount of water at a certain time interval to keep it warm so we get hot water out of the tap faster than we did with our old conventional model.

We previously had a 40gal gas hot water heater for our family of 5 and it was doable but we really had to manage hot water usage in the evenings, particularly during the winter when the water coming into the house is colder and it needed to heat a bigger delta. We all bathe/shower at night so all the kids would get a bath or shower and then we would give it some time after which the adult went first would get a decent shower but the second adult had to really hurry to not finish cold. We also had to make sure we didn’t run the dishwasher or washing machine (if using warm or hot) until after all showers were done for the night. I do think our water heater’s performance was probably subpar for its last few years so it is possible a brand new 40gal would have been better but I would not have been willing to risk it. If we stuck with a conventional one, we would have absolutely upgraded to a 50gal.

I think it is hard to say if we have saved money with the tankless because I think we shifted to taking longer showers since the hot water is literally endless. If we were more disciplined, I think there would absolutely be savings. I love not having to worry about staggering things or running out. In the winter, when the groundwater is colder, if one kid is filling the bath and another is showering in a different bathroom, I can’t wash dishes until the bath kid turns off the tap because I don’t have enough gal/min for 3 things at a time. In the warmer weather, I do.

We don’t have a generator and it is a bummer to have no hot water during power outages but that is the only minor complaint that I have. The first winter we got it, we had a snowstorm and the power went out. DD woke up in the middle of the night with a stomach virus and threw up all over herself. We ended up having to heat water on the stove by candlelight to wash the vomit out of her hair which was an unanticipated adventure. However, your generator would remove this downside and if you had a natural gas tankless the amount of electricity it would need from your generator would be fairly small. They do sell battery backups but they are expensive and need to be maintained which I don’t think I have the bandwidth for!

[stemmie]

Our house is all gas/3BR 2.5ba for a family of 4. We have been well served by a traditional 40 gallon heater. We lose electric pretty often but have never lost hot water unless the pilot got wet from a couple inches of water in the basement. Once we were without power for 5 days but had plenty of hot water for showers. Then you need it to dry out and electric to re-ignite it. That has happened exactly once in 20 years.

I would not convert to electric here because of cost (where I live) and efficiency- an electric water heater takes longer to heath the water- maybe an hour vs 20 minutes IME. Depending on your electric power source, it could be a greener option.

In my old house we had an 80 gallon electric because the water heater was on its own off-peak metered account, so it was off for 3-8 hours daily depending on the time of year. If you go electric, you might want a bigger unit.

Because we had a well when it was first installed, we had a custom-built heater made with special innards to handle the high mineral content. We also maintained it by draining it regularly. That heater, with the sacrificial rods inside lasted longer than any standard heater I have installed here.

[af1212]

The only thing I have to add to this is if you have to go down a basement set of stairs or anything like that I wouldn’t get your heart set on anything until you measure the space.

When we replaced our hot water heater (it broke so was emergent replacement) we could not get the same size that we currently had because newer energy regulations that require better insulation meant that a water heater of the same capacity was now much larger in circumference and would not fit down our basement stairs.

So we went with whatever size would fit and we super-heat the water and then add back in some cold water with an additional tank - can’t remember the details of what this setup is called.

For reference I have a family of 5.

[Susie]

af1212, we're good there -- I can assure, my heart is not set on anything besides my shower being hot when this is all done!

Our basement is large, not yet finished, and our stairs are very open. I don't foresee practical limitations on that front.

[Pilsy]

How long do most people have to run the water - say, at the bathroom sink - before it's warm/hot enough for washing hands? I'm curious, because my hot water is never hot right when I turn it on, but a comment here has me wondering if that's atypical.

Susie, you have a lot of great basement space and shelving!

[hbomdiggity]

Jan 3, 2022 11:05:52 GMT -5 kitty said:

We have an extra loop plumbed in that circulates a small amount of water at a certain time interval to keep it warm so we get hot water out of the tap faster than we did with our old conventional model.

We need to do this. It take forever to get warm water sometimes with our tankless.

I have never done the math to figure out the cost benefit of wasting water versus electricity/gas for the tank. It will likely depend on respective rates.

We had a tankless in our first house and the water bill was similar to previous places so we didn’t think too much about cost (maybe $50/mo). We moved states and holey hell our water bill is now $200-250/mo. Now, our house is bigger (longer water lines) and it’s a 4 season climate (previous was SoCal). But I also think water is just more expensive here.

[pierogigirl]

Jan 3, 2022 9:49:18 GMT -5 Susie said:

Jan 2, 2022 13:59:05 GMT -5 aprilsails said:

Do not do tankless, particularly if you are on a metered water system. It sucks to wait minutes every time you want hot water. We would put extra water in a jug while waiting for it to heat up to water plants, etc, but we didn’t need all of it and much of it went to waste.

In my area, at this time, electric would be more expensive. We went with gas for that reason. Same size house, 50 gallon, and it’s very efficient.

In terms of your generator calculation, the electric hot water heater is dicey. They can pull up to 5500W at one time for a 50 gallon tank, depending on the wattage of the heating element. Most whole home generators are in the 10,000-13,000W range. The issue I can see is that you might need to unplug it and only turn it on when you know you aren’t using other appliances or you might overload the generator.

We ordered a 24 kw generator, so we have quite a bit of headspace.  But your point overall is well taken.  I had not considered the impact of tankless on the water bill.  We are on metered water, so that sounds like another reason to stick with a tank.

We have tankless and I did not notice any change to our water bill.  Also, every house I have lived in or owned had some cold water in the pipes before the hot water came out. I don't see how you will avoid that, so to me, it is a non-issue. It does not take minutes for the tank to produce the hot water.

[ssmjlm]

Jan 4, 2022 14:56:38 GMT -5 Pilsy said:

How long do most people have to run the water - say, at the bathroom sink - before it's warm/hot enough for washing hands? I'm curious, because my hot water is never hot right when I turn it on, but a comment here has me wondering if that's atypical.

Susie, you have a lot of great basement space and shelving!

Yeah, I must be missing something.  My hot water heater is in the garage (no basements here) and it takes a few mins before my master bath on the opposite side of the house gets hot water.  I just figured that was normal travel time through the pipes and up one story.  

[aprilsails]

Jan 4, 2022 16:50:21 GMT -5 ssmjlm said:

Jan 4, 2022 14:56:38 GMT -5 Pilsy said:

How long do most people have to run the water - say, at the bathroom sink - before it's warm/hot enough for washing hands? I'm curious, because my hot water is never hot right when I turn it on, but a comment here has me wondering if that's atypical.

Susie, you have a lot of great basement space and shelving!

Yeah, I must be missing something.  My hot water heater is in the garage (no basements here) and it takes a few mins before my master bath on the opposite side of the house gets hot water.  I just figured that was normal travel time through the pipes and up one story.  

That may be. At my last house the previous owners had put in a first generation Navien tankless water heater and it was terrible. I’m also in Canada, so for half the year the water starts off pretty cold. It could not be retrofitted with a recirculating loop so that wasn’t an option for us. I looked into it. It would regularly take 3+ minutes to obtain warm to hot water and it was a very compact house. There were no long pipe runs. We may just he been cursed with a crappy design for a tankless and newer models are better. I just know that I hated that thing with a passion for 8 years, the whole time paying through the nose for it because it was a stupid rental agreement that ported with the sale. When we renovated the basement we took it out carefully and dropped it off at their installers 1.5km from my house. The damn rental company tried to charge us a $700 pick up charge and an extra $300 to break the rental contract. Such a scam. We had paid over $7500 in the 10 years we used it.

[Susie]

We ended up just ordering another natural gas 50 gal tank heater, set to install on 1/18.  Ours is still working, but is old and has a pretty significant leak that we don't want to worsen and create an emergency.  Thanks for the feedback.  I was hoping to find an opportunity for a greener option than natural gas, but it doesn't sound like there's a good one at this point.