Buying land from neighbor for an addition UPDATED

[noodleoo]

Has anyone ever done this and can give me advice?  I *love* our house and it was (almost) perfect for our family until Covid hit, which resulted in both my H and I WFH full time.  I recently got the idea for how we could do an addition that would be an amazing improvement to the house.  I want to add a 1 car garage with 1 story above it.  It would add 2 offices and much needed storage, plus give us a 2 car garage (we have 1 bay already).  The only complaints I ever have about our house is that it lacks storage and I always wished we had 2 car garage. 

I'd 100% go ahead with this except that we don't own enough land to do it.   Our house is grandfathered in to the old lot sizes and we only have 7' to the property line.  The house next door has a much larger lot and is owned by another neighbor.  He bought it to keep a developer from buying it and clear cutting/subdividing the lot.  He currently rents out the small house on it, so I actually think he might consider selling us a strip of land to do it.

But I have no idea how to approach this process.  There is 3 things we need to do (I think):  1) ask the neighbor if he would sell and figure out a fair price, 2) figure out how much the addition would cost and if we can afford it, and 3) find out if the town would allow us to build it.

I don't know what order to do these things in!  I don't want to start drawing plans if we don't know if he would sell. But I also don't want to ask him if it is too expensive to build or if the town wouldn't let us.  But I'm not sure how to figure out pricing or ask the town without plans!  Does anyone have any advice on how to get started?  

I know this is probably the worst time to think about doing this, but once I got the idea in my head I can't stop daydreaming about it so I think I need to get an answer as to whether it is possible or not before I drive myself crazy.  

Note that moving is out of the picture because house prices are insane (easily double what we paid) and we have a really reasonable mortgage with a 2.1% interest rate, so we are never moving.  LOL

UPDATE 6/1:  I contacted the building department to find out about the setback requirements.  They said that if we buy land for the addition, we would need to use the new setback of 15' instead of our current 7'.  This means we'd need to buy more land from the neighbor which 1) is more expensive than I planned for and 2) less likely neighbor will agree to it.  I asked about requesting a variance and he said we could ask the zoning board, but didn't give any more information (so now I have to figure out what is involved in that).  I was getting all excited about this and now I'm feeling like it is pretty unlikely to happen and also a bigger hassle than I was hoping for.  I'm having a rough day (for other reasons) so I'm pretty depressed about it. 

[Pilsy]

I'm excited for you! I've been meaning to post again about my renovation dreams, but I've made no progress and will just focus on yours instead.

Approaching your neighbor should be easy enough (small time/effort investment), so I'd go ahead and do that. If he will even consider selling it, then you can pursue an appraisal for help establishing a price. You should check your town bylaws to see how big of a piece you need to accommodate the setback requirements, etc. Those bylaws should give you an idea of what you can/can't do on your property, and you can call your town office if you have questions.

Getting estimates will likely be the toughest piece of the puzzle, because contractors have too much work, but you can make a few calls and see if anyone will show up.

[dr.girlfriend]

We actually started by talking to a friend who was a realtor. She gave us a rough idea of whether we would find anything like our final result in our price range (no) and what our house might sell for with the addition. We were NOT concerned with resale value -- we went into it thinking that if we did this addition it would be just for us, but it was good to know that we wouldn't be eating into our equity. I'm also thinking about things like, even though you plan to use the space for offices, maybe have a closet and window in each so you can technically list them as bedrooms? If you are thinking of two small spaces, maybe have an idea for how ultimately they may be combined into one bigger space?

The other thing we did, since we knew by doing the addition we were committing to this house long-term, was making things more accessible for aging-in-place. For us, that meant a downstairs bedroom and bathroom with grab-bars, etc., making sure laundry was on the main floor, etc. For you guys you may even want to allow space for an elevator shaft or something? I've heard of people doing that but haven't looked into it personally.

Looking into local ordinances should be relatively straightforward. That would give you an idea of the size of the strip of the land you would need to stay within your guidelines. I would want to have that in mind before approaching the neighbor.  We were able to get a variance from our county for covering more than x% of our lot, but it was a big drawn-out process, including alerting our neighbors and appearing in person in front of the zoning board.  I would guess there are some things you can't get variances for (e.g. easements for emergency vehicles, etc.) but some things you can.

[tacokick]

My parents sort of did this, the house between them and their other neighbors had been empty and for sale off and on for a long time.

My parents’ dream was not live next to anyone (there is woods on the other side).

They approached the neighbors on the other side and discussed it and it turned out their neighbors had had always wanted a bigger yard. Their neighbors bought the house in the middle tore it down then sold about a third of the lot to my parents. It was actually pretty easy! The county had to do a lot of surveying and a lawyer handled the paperwork but it was pretty quick and easy. They also live in a place with a lot of environmental concerns (bordered by woods, wet lands, farm land) so they were worried but it was easier than when they did work on their own original property because they were just adding more land and a shed, not building a whole new house.

I would start by asking if he would sell you the land and go from there. If he is 100% against it, you’ll have your answer.

I also don’t think getting estimates are a problem, I don’t think they’d pull property records right away and if you told them the plans they’d be able to tell you if it would work. At this stage I don’t think they’d care if you own the land, people get feasibility plans and estimates for lots they don’t own yet all the time.

A call to the planning office should give you an idea if you can build there and what. Or a contractor might know.

[noodleoo]

Thanks everyone! So, do I literally just call the building department, describe my plan and ask? I checked the town building department website and there was very little information. I feel so weird going into this knowing so little!

I know, I keep telling H he should casually ask the neighbor, but again, then I'm afraid he will just say no and dash my dreams. I know we need to do that though.

Pilsy , yes, the tentative plan in my head is to basically add 2 bedrooms with big closets (because we need the storage!) that we would use as offices. The could eventually be repurposed as bedrooms when the kids are older (DD2's room is very small) or if a parent needs to live with us. I'd also like to add a walk in pantry. I wasn't planning to change/add any bathrooms as we already have 4, although the 2 showers are on the 3rd floor. I was figuring without a kitchen or bathroom, the addition would hopefully be a lot cheaper. Our house is very vertical (3 floor split entry) so when we can't do stairs, it will probably make more sense to move.  The way our house is laid out, it should be a pretty simple addition that can be added without affecting the rest of the house (aside from tying into the heat and electrical).

[tacokick]

May 17, 2022 13:20:40 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

Thanks everyone! So, do I literally just call the building department, describe my plan and ask? I checked the town building department website and there was very little information. I feel so weird going into this knowing so little!

I know, I keep telling H he should casually ask the neighbor, but again, then I'm afraid he will just say no and dash my dreams. I know we need to do that though.

Yes! You can just call them. Years ago I worked in the building permit department and we’d get calls like this all the time. I think it’s one of those things that is still a little old fashioned. My parents did this fairly recently and it was all handled on the phone vs online. They just needed to know the address of the other lot and they were able to get all their questions answered.

If it was me, I’d ask him first but if you’d rather check with the county first, I’d probably not mention that to him when you ask. I’d worry he’d think you were trying to steamroll him or something. But of course you know him better than me!

[mrspez07]

In addition, you will likely need to do a subdivision amendment or minor subdivision plat to make that strip of land part of your lot. You cannot build on a lot line. This “could” trigger requirements on your lot like doing current setbacks since your lot is changing size and it’s no longer the small lot size. Some jurisdictions are more onerous than others about other requirements with that process, but worth talking to the planning office after you approach the neighbor. You will also need a licensed surveyor to do the legal document/plot pla for that process.

[icedcoffee]

I'd come up with a rough estimate of how much land you'd need and a ballpark on what you feel that is worth in dollars. Then I'd ask the neighbor. No point in doing the rest if he says no.

[themoneytree]

We did just did this.
Started the process in 2019 and we completed the addition in 2021.
I can’t lie, it was a huge pain in the ass.

The neighbor agreed to sell us their old shitty garage as long as we paid to build them a new one closer to their house.
Their old garage was right next to my house and looked like it belonged to my house, but didn’t.

I paid something like $25,000 for the piece of land that the garage was on. It worked out because it meant there was an existing foundation and building which meant we were allowed to be right up to the lot line.
All in all it cost over $90,000 to buy the land, pay for the new garage for the neighbor, pay both of our legal fees, pay for a survey, the engineering report, the architect plan to take in front of the historic board and zoning board, the subdivision, etc.
I’m mentioning these numbers so you can see that the cost of the land was the least expensive part of the whole thing, so that’s worth being aware of when talking about a land price with your neighbor. I think building them a garage was also around $25,000 so $40,000 was legal and administrative costs which was more than I would have expected.

For me it was worth it - it added a two car garage to the property, solved some functional obsolescence within the house and added a lot of value once the addition was done. Total cost including our build was in the region of $250,000 ish. Probably added $400,000+ of value to the house.

Of course we then moved around the corner to a new house and renovated that one too but I’m still happy we did it!

[dr.girlfriend]

noodleoo,You'll have to keep us updated, I'm invested now! :-)

[noodleoo]

themoneytree , wow, that is a lot! That is one of the things I'm afraid of with the land purchase. I saw a post on my town FB that a land survey alone cost $1800 and I'm guessing there is a lot of other stuff that will need to be done. Can you expand on the process of buying the land? Did you use a real estate agent to help with the transaction or did you do it yourself? How did you figure out a fair price for hte land?  Any other advice on what we need to think about ahead of time would be really helpful!

dr.girlfriend , haha I'll definitely keep you updated! Although I keep going back and forth on whether this will be worth the hassle or if neighbor would even consider selling (I know, we need to ask, but I'm scared to open the can of worms). We'd also have to cut down 2-3 huge trees to do this, and I have a feeling neighbor would not want that so he might say no just because of that. (The trees would probably still be on his land, but right on the property line and leaning over our house, so they would probably need to go).

[themoneytree]

May 19, 2022 12:11:41 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

themoneytree , wow, that is a lot! That is one of the things I'm afraid of with the land purchase. I saw a post on my town FB that a land survey alone cost $1800 and I'm guessing there is a lot of other stuff that will need to be done. Can you expand on the process of buying the land? Did you use a real estate agent to help with the transaction or did you do it yourself? How did you figure out a fair price for hte land?  Any other advice on what we need to think about ahead of time would be really helpful!

dr.girlfriend , haha I'll definitely keep you updated! Although I keep going back and forth on whether this will be worth the hassle or if neighbor would even consider selling (I know, we need to ask, but I'm scared to open the can of worms). We'd also have to cut down 2-3 huge trees to do this, and I have a feeling neighbor would not want that so he might say no just because of that. (The trees would probably still be on his land, but right on the property line and leaning over our house, so they would probably need to go).

I am a realtor, but determining the value of such a small piece of land was difficult. Basically I was told what they wanted and just said yes.
BUT my house had some issues - it was very cool, but had some challenges so I was open to pretty much paying whatever it took to get it done because I knew it would add SO much value.

Our survey was $2000 but it was very complicated and involved a lot of time for the surveyor at the borough searching for information on the two lots going back over 150 years.

My main advice is that you need a good attorney who knows how to do lot line changes/ subdivisions, etc. Its very, very expensive. Slow and annoying. I made the decision to use my neighbor’s attorney to do the process but I had to pay him! That was a crazy thing to do and I would never have advised a client to do that. It likely still worked out cheaper than paying for two separate attorneys, but that was the stickiest issue. I got to pay for the neighbor to chat with the attorney at hundreds of dollars an hour and I had no one looking out for my best interests. BUT the neighbor had zero incentive to do this deal. She did it as a favor and yes she got $25,000 and a new garage, but it’s a rental property for her and she is incredibly wealthy, so the $25,000 doesn’t matter to her. She also was clear that she didn’t want any expenses related to doing me the favor of selling the garage. And I understood that, so I paid.

I see you are worried your neighbor would be upset about losing trees. Maybe you can offer to put more trees in for them?

I would just be prepared for it to take longer and be more expensive than you think. How much value will be added to the home? Is it worth spending the money? For me it was. But if it would only have added $200,000 in value I would have been in the hole for $50,000 plus all the hassle. It may not have been worth it.

For me it was worth it because it added a ton of value and I love the house. It’s a very special historic property that wasn’t at its best and now is.

[noodleoo]

Update in the OP.

[tacokick]

I’m sorry to hear your update! It did sound like a great idea .

[mrsukyankee]

That stinks, noodleoo. Sorry to hear that.

[libbygrl109]

I’m sorry things aren’t going your way. That stinks.

[simpsongal]

Dang, I'm sorry. Setbacks are such variable in these things. I know folks think we were crazy for pushing out our garage slightly and doing such a small addition. But we were limited by the setback and didn't want to go through lots of $$$ for the chance we'd be approved for an extra foot or so.

[noodleoo]

I talked to my sister and she told me not to give up yet. We're going to roughly measure if there is enough space between the houses to allow for the 15' setback between us. If there is H, is going to talk to the neighbor and find out if he would even consider it. Then we will go from there. If he says no, then it is definitely dead and I can let it go.

[mrspez07]

Jun 2, 2022 8:23:25 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

I talked to my sister and she told me not to give up yet. We're going to roughly measure if there is enough space between the houses to allow for the 15' setback between us. If there is H, is going to talk to the neighbor and find out if he would even consider it. Then we will go from there. If he says no, then it is definitely dead and I can let it go.

Be aware that the 15’ setback likely would now apply to both houses, not just your house. Keep us posted.

[themoneytree]

We needed variances for everything for ours. Set back and lot coverage.
A knowledgeable, local architect with good contacts could likely give you an idea of whether there is a chance of success.

We didn’t come even close with meeting our set back requirement and there is maybe three feet between the two garages now. The zoning board didn’t love that but it was the only way to make it work so they allowed it.

We just went through the set back issue again with converting the top floor of our 100 year old barn. It was another annoying and expensive process but we got the set back and living area variance granted on this project a couple of months ago. It was $1500 just to go in front of the board. Probably $10k in survey, engineer, architect and attorney fees on top of that. Ridiculous, but possible in our area.

[noodleoo]

mrspez07 , yes, the building inspector mentioned that. I think there is enough land between us to leave 15' on both sides, luckily.  And enough that even if he sells us a strip, he will still meet the 0.5 acre lot minimum.

themoneytree , interesting! The building inspector mentioned something about having to demonstrate "hardship" to request a variance. I have no idea what that means and I can't really find info on it on the town website. I am hoping that if we get to the point of talking to builders, maybe they can help with figuring that out. Of course, we probably need to buy the land first... so hard to figure this out!

UPDATE 2 (6/7):  H ripped the bandaid off and talked to the neighbor over the weekend. It was a really quick conversation, said we are just starting to think about options and would he ever consider selling some land? He didn't say no! He said he'd look into it and think about it and get back to us. I think he knows more than we do about the requirements (he did a big addition on his house about 10 years ago). One step down, we will see what he says and go from there!

[dr.girlfriend]

Jun 7, 2022 11:06:43 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

mrspez07 , yes, the building inspector mentioned that. I think there is enough land between us to leave 15' on both sides, luckily.  And enough that even if he sells us a strip, he will still meet the 0.5 acre lot minimum.

themoneytree , interesting! The building inspector mentioned something about having to demonstrate "hardship" to request a variance. I have no idea what that means and I can't really find info on it on the town website. I am hoping that if we get to the point of talking to builders, maybe they can help with figuring that out. Of course, we probably need to buy the land first... so hard to figure this out!

UPDATE 2 (6/7):  H ripped the bandaid off and talked to the neighbor over the weekend. It was a really quick conversation, said we are just starting to think about options and would he ever consider selling some land? He didn't say no! He said he'd look into it and think about it and get back to us. I think he knows more than we do about the requirements (he did a big addition on his house about 10 years ago). One step down, we will see what he says and go from there!

We had to indicate hardship for our addition. We basically made the case that my health problems (knee issues) posed a risk in our current dwelling with both bedrooms upstairs. That, in combination with our other arguments (one of the last remaining 2-bedrooms in the neighborhood without an addition, not situated on the lot in a way that allowed us to build up instead of out) probably helped. We talked a lot about how we loved the neighborhood and wanted to age in place and I think they were very open to that. Doesn’t apply as well to your situation but just to start you thinking.

[themoneytree]

We claimed hardship too. It was fairly easy with the first house which had some functional obsolescence.

The one we just did was basically that the barn would deteriorate if not used appropriately. It was built to house horses and straw and neither of those are now applicable.

All this to say, a hardship is in the eye of the beholder. This is where a good local architect or attorney can be helpful in coming up with ideas that will be palatable to local zoning boards.