Negative test to return policies for after covid

[Susie]

In response to the current uptick in covid cases in our region and our office, a couple of my partners at work (I'm a partner in a small law firm) want to institute a new rule that employees who test positive for covid need to test negative in order to return to office, even after completing their 10 day isolation.  This would be in addition to the existing practice that everyone who gets covid stays out (WFH) for the full 10 days, not just the first 5 with masked return on day 6.

I am pretty set against adding the negative test to return policy for a number of reasons.  I don't think it's evidence based, and it's out of sync with every recommendation that I can find, including CDC, state DOH, etc.  It could impose a financial and logistical burden on employees who need to test serially after 10 days, to determine daily whether they are excused from our in-person requirements or cleared to extend WFH.  We also haven't had a single case of in-office transmission going all the way back to 2020, so I don't really see the need to add new rules now.  

My partners who are in favor of the change, are basically of the view that the CDC sets a minimum, and we can opt to do more.  I don't explicitly disagree with that sentiment, but this particular measure doesn't pass muster for me for the reasons I mentioned.  

Has anyone run into test to return requirements at work or this issue generally?  I would certainly appreciate any resources anyone can share either pro/con.  We are debating this in a meeting tomorrow and I want to be prepared.  

[mcsangel2]

Then you also have the issue of some people will continue to test positive for up to three months, even after their symptoms have resolved and they are no longer contagious.

[mskitkat]

I’m on Day 11 and still rapid testing positive. I thought that meant I was still contagious?

[Susie]

May 23, 2022 10:53:49 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

Then you also have the issue of some people will continue to test positive for up to three months, even after their symptoms have resolved and they are no longer contagious.

Right, that's part of what I meant by the measure not being evidence based.  For example, NYC health department says:

Does a staff member need a doctor’s note or negative COVID-19 test to return to work once they complete their isolation or quarantine?
No. If they have completed isolation or quarantine, they do not need documentation to return to work. They do not need a doctor’s note, note from the NYC Health Department or negative laboratory test result. It is strongly recommended not to require negative COVID-19 test results after isolation, as a person may test positive for COVID-19 for many weeks or months after infection, even though they are no longer contagious.

www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/covid/businesses/covid-19-reopening-cases-workplace.pdf

We are in NYS, but not NYC. I'm looking at it though because I haven't seen a lot of authorities take on the question quite so on-point.  A lot of negative test to return scenarios that I'm reading about refer to testing neg before day 10 to come back sooner, which is different.

[melmaria]

My firm is pretty conservative/cautious about Covid, and our policy is: You can return to the physical office after 14 days, or after 10 days with a negative test. So, more conservative/cautious than what the CDC now requires, but not insanely so.

ETA: we *just* went back to hybrid work very very recently, and a lot of people were feeling really reluctant/nervous about it, so I think they're keeping a more conservative policy to make people feel more comfortable.  Plus, lawyers are just generally a risk-averse bunch, as you know

[Susie]

May 23, 2022 11:14:01 GMT -5 melmaria said:

My firm is pretty conservative/cautious about Covid, and our policy is: You can return to the physical office after 14 days, or after 10 days with a negative test. So, more conservative/cautious than what the CDC now requires, but not insanely so.

ETA: we *just* went back to hybrid work very very recently, and a lot of people were feeling really reluctant/nervous about it, so I think they're keeping a more conservative policy to make people feel more comfortable.  Plus, lawyers are just generally a risk-averse bunch, as you know

I would be ok with that kind of policy I think.  It's more conservative, but as long as the employer is willing to have people WFH for those extra days, then that's fine with me.

Where I don't like the negative test requirement for all instances, is that we require attendance 3 core days/week (and have for about a year now), so this requirement would be setting people up to HAVE to test basically every Tues-Thurs after day 10 to either substantiate further WFH or to be cleared to come in.  That kind of push-pull on return to office is logistically burdensome, and could get expensive for someone who has to keep testing frequently over an extended period if they're one of those "testing positive for 3 months" people.  I'm most concerned about the expense for our admins, but it's not cool to impose on anyone.  It's hard to justify too, in the absence of data specifically tying timing of no longer being contagious, to timing of beginning to test negative again.

[jeaniebueller]

Susie, i am so sorry you are dealing with all of this. your family cannot catch a break between daycare policies and work stuff.

[dcn]

I wouldn’t require a negative pcr test bc you can be positive for awhile and it doesn’t mean you are contagious.

My sister’s kids’ school requires a negative rapid test before returning. Her kids both tested positive for 10-12 days so were out long. I was positive for 11 days too when I had it.

Antigen tests are a pretty good indicator of contagiousness so I wouldn’t dismiss a positive result on day 10 or 11.

[macmars45]

If they mean antigen test, yes I agree with their policy. PCR, no. You can test positive on those for a long while.

[Aloe Vera]

If other partners are dead set on this policy then cost of testing should be reimbursed by the firm. I would also ask what is their plan if an employee tests positive for weeks.

[melmaria]

May 23, 2022 11:26:43 GMT -5 Susie said:

May 23, 2022 11:14:01 GMT -5 melmaria said:

My firm is pretty conservative/cautious about Covid, and our policy is: You can return to the physical office after 14 days, or after 10 days with a negative test. So, more conservative/cautious than what the CDC now requires, but not insanely so.

ETA: we *just* went back to hybrid work very very recently, and a lot of people were feeling really reluctant/nervous about it, so I think they're keeping a more conservative policy to make people feel more comfortable.  Plus, lawyers are just generally a risk-averse bunch, as you know

I would be ok with that kind of policy I think.  It's more conservative, but as long as the employer is willing to have people WFH for those extra days, then that's fine with me.

Oh yes, we are absolutely allowed to WFH full-time while waiting out the 10 to 14-day period.  I would have tested myself to try to be allowed to come back after day 10, but then my kids got Covid too and we lost our childcare for 2 weeks, so it ended up being a moot point for me.  I came back on day 21, lol.

Anyway, having to test much past day 14 really doesn't make sense.  As has already been pointed out, people can test positive on a PCR for months after infection.  And if they want people to test negative on a rapid before coming in, well, like you said, who's paying for that?

There is a cost/benefit analysis for all of these policies, and the likelihood that anyone is still shedding enough virus past day 14 to be actually contagious seems very, very slim based on the data we have.

[InBetweenDays]

I'm not opposed if it's a policy like melmaria has. But I would ask who is going to be responsible for managing this? And how will they implement it? Who will be receiving/verifying the test results? What sort of "proof" would the company require? A photo of the test? Or is it just an honor system?

And I absolutely agree that the company should pay for the tests. Ideally they'd have them on hand and mail them/send them home with any employee that tests positive. Not leave it to the employee to track down a test, pay for it, and get reimbursed.

[Susie]

These issues of who's paying, who's supplying the tests, who's managing it, what proof of test result is required, to be submitted to whom, are all good questions and all things I agree need to be worked out before we consider putting this in place.

Previously, we've just used an honor system about all aspects of timing, day counting, and results.  We only have about 20-25 people onsite, and it really hasn't been that big a deal.  We've had a handful of people have covid and come back without issue.  If we're now going to put in place a formal requirement to test negative to return, a casual honor system and self-testing doesn't work so well.

This all came about now because last week, an attorney who was on day 6 at the time wanted to come into the office (masked) to scan something on his way home from a doctor's appointment, and one of the partners freaked out.  Sigh.  I'm no fan of that particular attorney, but the overreaction was a bit much.  

[kershnic]

This seems excessive. But of course is the problem with the CDC not including a negative test criteria, which has been widely advocated by others. My understanding is that the vast majority of people will be antigen negative by day 6, hence the end of isolation on day 6. Anecdotally I just had COVID and was antigen negative on day 5. My daughter was antigen negative on day 6. (I didn’t test either of us earlier, but it was quite possibly earlier).

[melmaria]

May 23, 2022 22:19:00 GMT -5 kershnic said:

This seems excessive. But of course is the problem with the CDC not including a negative test criteria, which has been widely advocated by others. My understanding is that the vast majority of people will be antigen negative by day 6, hence the end of isolation on day 6. Anecdotally I just had COVID and was antigen negative on day 5. My daughter was antigen negative on day 6. (I didn’t test either of us earlier, but it was quite possibly earlier).

Neither I nor my husband was antigen negative until day 12. However, the line was significantly fainter by day eight or nine or so.

[ECB]

I think most of my thoughts have been covered. You've been given some good questions to ask, and I agree that this could be a financial issue for some people. If the firm is willing to pay for (and preferably also supply), o.k. - then maybe. But if they aren't, you will have some very unhappy employees.

MAYBE once confronted with all the questions and possible issues, the partner who wants this will back off.

[Michelle]

Houston Methodist, the hospital system in Houston that made headlines for being the first health system in the U.S. to require covid-19 vaccination for its employees, has had a rigorous testing process for returning people to work.

They do not require the negative test to return to work.

The reason cited (trying to find the source) was the same as above - you can continue testing positive well after you are no longer contagious.

I know there is a Harvard Business Review article out there about their vaccination policy... i'll see if it includes their testing procedures too.

Edit - the HBR article does not include the testing procedures. Still looking. Here is the HBR article if anyone is interested. hbr.org/2021/07/how-to-develop-a-covid-19-employee-vaccination-policy

Edit 2 - found the return to work testing info. This hospital follows CDC guidelines and also tests various infection scenarios in labs in their research institute.


hrportal.ehr.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=a8b7n2J3yU0%3d&portalid=78

[Susie]

May 24, 2022 7:42:14 GMT -5 ECB said:

MAYBE once confronted with all the questions and possible issues, the partner who wants this will back off.

To update, this is basically what happened.  We're updating our policy to explicitly require employees to stay OOO for 10 days (not the 5 + 5 masked that the state requires), but that's pretty much it.  

I have to say I feel super shitty about it all though.  I was in the unique position of being both present in the partnership meeting (via Teams, anyway) and also being one of the people at home on covid isolation - making me one of the very people the partner was railing about, how "anxious" it makes "people", how "uncomfortable", how people are supposedly thinking that I might "still be testing positive" after return.  (Pretty sure "people" is him.).  It makes me never want to go back in person because there is no way to address all this distrust and stigma that floats just below the surface.  Why tf would anyone actively be thinking someone is testing positive after return to office post-day-10?  I'm not saying it's impossible to happen, but it's a really weird and specific thing to think about a coworker.

By the time I tested positive, I'd already been OOO for 6 days.  I was proposing to return on day 14, just because that's how it falls with Memorial Day weekend (my day 10 is Friday).  I think I am being objectively responsible here, but I still feel like a shit human because I caught covid and propose to return to office.  That's not ok.

[cattledogkisses]

May 24, 2022 11:54:31 GMT -5 Susie said:

May 24, 2022 7:42:14 GMT -5 ECB said:

MAYBE once confronted with all the questions and possible issues, the partner who wants this will back off.

To update, this is basically what happened.  We're updating our policy to explicitly require employees to stay OOO for 10 days (not the 5 + 5 masked that the state requires), but that's pretty much it.  

I have to say I feel super shitty about it all though.  I was in the unique position of being both present in the partnership meeting (via Teams, anyway) and also being one of the people at home on covid isolation - making me one of the very people the partner was railing about, how "anxious" it makes "people", how "uncomfortable", how people are supposedly thinking that I might "still be testing positive" after return.  (Pretty sure "people" is him.).  It makes me never want to go back in person because there is no way to address all this distrust and stigma that floats just below the surface.  Why tf would anyone actively be thinking someone is testing positive after return to office post-day-10?  I'm not saying it's impossible to happen, but it's a really weird and specific thing to think about a coworker.

By the time I tested positive, I'd already been OOO for 6 days.  I was proposing to return on day 14, just because that's how it falls with Memorial Day weekend (my day 10 is Friday).  I think I am being objectively responsible here, but I still feel like a shit human because I caught covid and propose to return to office.  That's not ok.

Please don't feel like a shit human.  You are following the current medical recommendations and science. 

Your coworker needs to deal with his own anxiety himself, not try to impose restrictions on other people that aren't based on science. 

[wawa]

May 24, 2022 13:09:02 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

May 24, 2022 11:54:31 GMT -5 Susie said:

To update, this is basically what happened.  We're updating our policy to explicitly require employees to stay OOO for 10 days (not the 5 + 5 masked that the state requires), but that's pretty much it.  

I have to say I feel super shitty about it all though.  I was in the unique position of being both present in the partnership meeting (via Teams, anyway) and also being one of the people at home on covid isolation - making me one of the very people the partner was railing about, how "anxious" it makes "people", how "uncomfortable", how people are supposedly thinking that I might "still be testing positive" after return.  (Pretty sure "people" is him.).  It makes me never want to go back in person because there is no way to address all this distrust and stigma that floats just below the surface.  Why tf would anyone actively be thinking someone is testing positive after return to office post-day-10?  I'm not saying it's impossible to happen, but it's a really weird and specific thing to think about a coworker.

By the time I tested positive, I'd already been OOO for 6 days.  I was proposing to return on day 14, just because that's how it falls with Memorial Day weekend (my day 10 is Friday).  I think I am being objectively responsible here, but I still feel like a shit human because I caught covid and propose to return to office.  That's not ok.

Please don't feel like a shit human.  You are following the current medical recommendations and science. 

Your coworker needs to deal with his own anxiety himself, not try to impose restrictions on other people that aren't based on science. 

Yes.  That, exactly.  Their weird anxiety and stupid covid shaming is their malfunction.  you're not doing a single thing wrong.  (which is easier said than felt, but know that I'm annoyed on your behalf)

[mambo123]

We are in the middle of something similar.

We hosted a large event and some of the staff got sick, no one is surprised.

That was a little over a week ago and people are still testing positive. Some feel better, some don’t. And those that feel better sound horrible.

For those that feel better my boss was kind of pushing them to come in. Let’s say they initially tested on a Sunday and we’re still positive the next Monday.

Myself and HR ran interference, as we didn’t like the heavy hand that the big boss was using. Especially when no one needs to be here. In the end it was decided that everyone would do 14 days to keep those who are healthy less anxious and less pressure on those who are sick.

We handed out tests before this big event and there is a drawer full of them.

I’m of the mindset that a more conservative policy doesn’t hurt and testing should be provided by the company if it’s referenced in the policy.

And selfishly I didn’t want to sit in a smallish office with those who are still sound sick and testing positive before a holiday weekend.