@ SCOTUS: HS coach has right to pray

[redheadbaker]

nyti.ms/3Os6lBt

Because of fucking course

[lea]

It just aggravates me because if the coach was praying to Allah, these same conservatives would be losing their minds. I think there is legit concern over children being afraid of retaliation (less playing time, etc) if they don’t partake in the coach’s prayer session and that’s extremely unfair.

[Velar Fricative]

When you are in a position of authority like this coach was, it's really not "voluntary." Fuck this fucking court.

[rubytue]

I grew up in the Bible Belt. And stuff like this makes me think about how my religion was integrated into schools and I just did get it then. For example, graduating seniors had a convocation on the Sunday night before graduation. It was in our high school auditorium (which, arguably, was the city auditorium, too). I remember my father raising hell about me wanting to go, and at the time, I was all “but my friends are going, it’s for the seniors!” Looking back, I don’t know if it was school sponsored, but it sure felt like it to me. And it was just a normal thing they did every year, and everybody went. I had quit attending church with my mother by then, but yet, filed under things you can’t see until you reflect back on it, religion was so pervasive everywhere. “Let us pray” started football and basketball games, things like that.

Least it come off like I’m defending it. No. Just more it’s making me reflect back on how effed up that was.

[aurora]

So, now I can start praying my religion in front of my students, too? And invite them to join me if so moved? I don't think this is going to end where the Christian theocracy wants it to.

[sonrisa]

Jun 27, 2022 9:24:35 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Fuck this fucking court.

QFT

[pumpkin]

I don’t understand how this is being allowed. He’s still acting in his official capacity as a representative of the school - it’s not like he can say “I’m not a school rep right now” and start and stop it while he’s there as a coach. To me this is pretty clear.

I’m going to need to read the opinion I guess.

[erbear]

Jun 27, 2022 15:11:33 GMT -5 pumpkin said:

I don’t understand how this is being allowed. He’s still acting in his official capacity as a representative of the school - it’s not like he can say “I’m not a school rep right now” and start and stop it while he’s there as a coach. To me this is pretty clear.

I’m going to need to read the opinion I guess.

I’m sure the opinion says something like “it’s freedom of religion because Christianity”

[Patsy Baloney]

Jun 27, 2022 16:10:12 GMT -5 erbear said:

Jun 27, 2022 15:11:33 GMT -5 pumpkin said:

I don’t understand how this is being allowed. He’s still acting in his official capacity as a representative of the school - it’s not like he can say “I’m not a school rep right now” and start and stop it while he’s there as a coach. To me this is pretty clear.

I’m going to need to read the opinion I guess.

I’m sure the opinion says something like “it’s freedom of religion because Christianity”

At this point, I’m pretty sure these opinions are just doodles in the margin of a “Supreme Court for Dummies” book found in a flooded basement.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Jun 27, 2022 15:11:33 GMT -5 pumpkin said:

I don’t understand how this is being allowed. He’s still acting in his official capacity as a representative of the school - it’s not like he can say “I’m not a school rep right now” and start and stop it while he’s there as a coach. To me this is pretty clear.

I’m going to need to read the opinion I guess.

It's called "ignore facts and precedent."

[AJL]

Has anyone read what the coach's actions actually were? For eight years, after every game, he quietly, alone takes a knee at the 50 yard line and prays. He doesn't require any students to pray. He doesn't announce his intentions. He doesn't force, compel, coerce, or in some other way make praying a condition for being on the team.

I side with the court on this one. He has a right to pray in any public place he chooses. He does not have a right to disallow others to pray nor to require that those he has authority over (i.e. students) to pray.

I'm not a particularly religious person, but sometimes I think the knee jerk anti-Christianity response on this board is troubling.

[audette]

Jun 27, 2022 18:06:33 GMT -5 AJL said:

Has anyone read what the coach's actions actually were? For eight years, after every game, he quietly, alone takes a knee at the 50 yard line and prays. He doesn't require any students to pray. He doesn't announce his intentions. He doesn't force, compel, coerce, or in some other way make praying a condition for being on the team.

I side with the court on this one. He has a right to pray in any public place he chooses. He does not have a right to disallow others to pray nor to require that those he has authority over (i.e. students) to pray.

I'm not a particularly religious person, but sometimes I think the knee jerk anti-Christianity response on this board is troubling.

I'm not sure that's in line with what I've heard/read...  This Vox article discusses some of the coach's behavior, and it crosses the line, as far as I am concerned.


On the other hand, it seems that the majority opinion was written to indicate that it was one person, alone, praying quietly and without attention or influence.  While the minority opinion indicated the opposite.

[Patsy Baloney]

Justice Sotomayor’s dissent highlights that a solo coach praying at the 50 yard line is a deception. She put a picture in it. He invited students to pray with him that he was in a position of authority over. There are a lot of snappy/sassy Twitter threads about it, but this has some further exploration of her dissent.

www.salon.com/2022/06/27/sotomayor-rebukes-scotus-for-ignoring-decades-of-precedent-with-school-prayer-ruling/

[StrawberryBlondie]

Jun 27, 2022 18:06:33 GMT -5 AJL said:

Has anyone read what the coach's actions actually were? For eight years, after every game, he quietly, alone takes a knee at the 50 yard line and prays. He doesn't require any students to pray. He doesn't announce his intentions. He doesn't force, compel, coerce, or in some other way make praying a condition for being on the team.

I side with the court on this one. He has a right to pray in any public place he chooses. He does not have a right to disallow others to pray nor to require that those he has authority over (i.e. students) to pray.

I'm not a particularly religious person, but sometimes I think the knee jerk anti-Christianity response on this board is troubling.

The majority's recitation of the facts seems ... mischaracterized... from what I've read about the case.

This is a pretty good description and Dahlia Lithwich is a reliable reporter on SCOTUS issues.
slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/04/how-republicans-recast-christian-indoctrination-as-religious-freedom.html

[cherryvalance]

Jun 27, 2022 18:06:33 GMT -5 AJL said:

Has anyone read what the coach's actions actually were? For eight years, after every game, he quietly, alone takes a knee at the 50 yard line and prays. He doesn't require any students to pray. He doesn't announce his intentions. He doesn't force, compel, coerce, or in some other way make praying a condition for being on the team.

I side with the court on this one. He has a right to pray in any public place he chooses. He does not have a right to disallow others to pray nor to require that those he has authority over (i.e. students) to pray.

I'm not a particularly religious person, but sometimes I think the knee jerk anti-Christianity response on this board is troubling.

I'm not knowledgeable enough on this, but is praying in a public space and praying while in your capacity as a public employee different? IMO, they are. I would never pray visibly during my working hours as a teacher--there's plenty of other time to do so when I'm not on the state's dime--but if I did pray, I wouldn't be opposed to praying, say, in a park or whatever.

[BlondeSpiders]

Jun 27, 2022 18:06:33 GMT -5 AJL said:

Has anyone read what the coach's actions actually were? For eight years, after every game, he quietly, alone takes a knee at the 50 yard line and prays. He doesn't require any students to pray. He doesn't announce his intentions. He doesn't force, compel, coerce, or in some other way make praying a condition for being on the team.

Except that he didn't. It started that way, but students started joining him, and then the visiting team's players joined, until people were rushing down from the stands.

While he did not specifically invite it, by continuing to allow and encourage it, it puts non-believers in an awkward position. Kids are impressionable, and want to fit in. Who's to say someone's time on the field isn't affected by their decision to join the prayer circle? It might not be at all, but this can give the appearance of favoritism, and that's why it's wrong.


From the dissenting opinion:

Sotomayor responded that Kennedy “made multiple media appearances to publicize his plans to pray at the 50- yard line, leading to an article in the Seattle News and a local television broadcast about the upcoming homecoming game.” She included in her opinions photos of Kennedy holding football helmets in the air, surrounded by kneeling players both from his team and his opponents.

No matter how one tries to spin it, this is not a "private moment:"

[biscoffcookies]

Jun 27, 2022 18:06:33 GMT -5 AJL said:

Has anyone read what the coach's actions actually were? For eight years, after every game, he quietly, alone takes a knee at the 50 yard line and prays. He doesn't require any students to pray. He doesn't announce his intentions. He doesn't force, compel, coerce, or in some other way make praying a condition for being on the team.

I side with the court on this one. He has a right to pray in any public place he chooses. He does not have a right to disallow others to pray nor to require that those he has authority over (i.e. students) to pray.

I'm not a particularly religious person, but sometimes I think the knee jerk anti-Christianity response on this board is troubling.

As others have pointed out, SCOTUS meaningfully misstated the facts of the case. This wasn’t like a teacher saying a quiet, unobtrusive prayer over their lunch or something. It was big, it was showy, and it was intended for others to participate in. Kids on the team were on the record saying that they felt like they had to participate lest they lose playing time, etc. The power disparity between students and coaches/teachers and the way that this became a “thing” after games are inherently coercive. That makes this case much closer to another SCOTUS case that said you couldn’t have a rabbi lead a prayer at graduation - even if no one is required to participate - because the overall circumstances give it the imprimatur of the school and tend to coerce students to at least go through the motions or at least be silent even if they don’t want to — and incidentally SCoTUs didn’t overrule that case with this opinion. So between the liberties with the facts and the lack of consistency between the outcomes it doesn’t seem like they were really engaged in good faith legal reasoning.

[AJL]

Jun 27, 2022 18:47:00 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

Justice Sotomayor’s dissent highlights that a solo coach praying at the 50 yard line is a deception. She put a picture in it. He invited students to pray with him that he was in a position of authority over. There are a lot of snappy/sassy Twitter threads about it, but this has some further exploration of her dissent.

www.salon.com/2022/06/27/sotomayor-rebukes-scotus-for-ignoring-decades-of-precedent-with-school-prayer-ruling/

Thank you! I appreciate this information.

[Velar Fricative]

Jun 27, 2022 18:47:09 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Jun 27, 2022 18:06:33 GMT -5 AJL said:

Has anyone read what the coach's actions actually were? For eight years, after every game, he quietly, alone takes a knee at the 50 yard line and prays. He doesn't require any students to pray. He doesn't announce his intentions. He doesn't force, compel, coerce, or in some other way make praying a condition for being on the team.

I side with the court on this one. He has a right to pray in any public place he chooses. He does not have a right to disallow others to pray nor to require that those he has authority over (i.e. students) to pray.

I'm not a particularly religious person, but sometimes I think the knee jerk anti-Christianity response on this board is troubling.

The majority's recitation of the facts seems ... mischaracterized... from what I've read about the case.

This is a pretty good description and Dahlia Lithwich is a reliable reporter on SCOTUS issues.
slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/04/how-republicans-recast-christian-indoctrination-as-religious-freedom.html

What strikes me in this piece is that it surmises that the GOP wants to bring back prayer into public schools…but they’re also trying to otherwise decimate public schools. Maybe I’m missing something obvious here, but I don’t get it.

I too initially thought he really was just a guy quietly praying by himself. And then the reality came to light and…nope nope nope.

[pumpkin]

Jun 27, 2022 18:47:00 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

Justice Sotomayor’s dissent highlights that a solo coach praying at the 50 yard line is a deception. She put a picture in it. He invited students to pray with him that he was in a position of authority over. There are a lot of snappy/sassy Twitter threads about it, but this has some further exploration of her dissent.

www.salon.com/2022/06/27/sotomayor-rebukes-scotus-for-ignoring-decades-of-precedent-with-school-prayer-ruling/

Also, as this is sort of local-ish to me, I’ve been aware of the case for years and have heard interviews from former students/players who did feel pressured to participate and from a couple of them who had different religious beliefs so they felt excluded and as though they would be treated differently.

I agree that one person is different than what this became.

[basilosaurus]

I've never understood why prayer needs to be so performative. Didn't Jesus rail against the Pharisees for doing just that? You can pray without ceasing without having an audience.

But, yeah, once again shame on the trumpers and bushers on the court for deliberately misstating the case in order to move towards Christian only theocracy. Madalyn Murray O'Hair has to be turning over in her grave.

[redheadbaker]

Jun 28, 2022 0:31:29 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I've never understood why prayer needs to be so performative. Didn't Jesus rail against the Pharisees for doing just that? You can pray without ceasing without having an audience.

But, yeah, once again shame on the trumpers and bushers on the court for deliberately misstating the case in order to move towards Christian only theocracy. Madalyn Murray O'Hair has to be turning over in her grave.

Since when have they followed the teachings of Jesus? Feed the poor? House the homeless? 

[ssmjlm]

Doubt it will be successful, but I applaud the thought.


Activist Asks To Lead Satanic Prayer At FL High School Football Game

patch.com/florida/miami/activist-asks-lead-satanic-prayer-fl-high-school-football-game