Atlantic Article Re- Redshirting Boys (@@)

[tacokick]

This is really not the issue at hand but I do wonder how the kids who are redshirted because their parents just want to and not any real medical issue or advice of any professional feel. I guess if everyone is redshirted it isn’t noticeable but if I was 7 and in K with 5 year olds I would have been so embarrassed. I remember being seven and in second grade and thinking the the K class looked like absolute babies.

Or being 19 knowing other 19 year olds are sophomores in college and I’m stuck in a high school class with 14 year olds? Knowing my parents didn’t think I was capable of going to school on time? Or dealing with the pressure of becoming an athlete because my parents kept me back so I’d be bigger and stronger than the other kids?

I think parents want to do right by their kids but I think sometimes they forget their kid won’t always be a wiggly 4-5 year old.

[AJL]

A lot of school districts will not let students enter kindergarten at 7. They will be placed in 1st grade. And in what world are 19 year olds are taking classes with 14 year olds? I feel like this thread is getting out of hand and now y'all are just making wild assertions that have not basis in reality.

A small portion of students are red-shirted. The article said that it was roughly 6%. Most kids that start kindergarten later are those who would be very young in their grade to begin with. No school is putting 19 year olds in classes with 14 year olds. And because I will die on this hill --- 19 year old teenagers are not men.

[tacokick]

Sept 18, 2022 10:15:39 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

That’s fine. Like I said, I am curious if we have hit the point where there is data and information on the back-end years of the red-shirting phenomenon yet. I’d love for it to not be true and high school to not be a cesspool of bad behavior like it was when I went.

ETA:  To be clear, I am not trying to be argumentative, I am genuinely curious how this will work.  I’ve not been that age in a long time, and none of my friends or family have HS-aged children yet. 

I wonder about that too. Traditionally you’d only have 18 yr olds in high school for a few months at the end of senior year unless they got held back.

At the high school level you get a mix of kids from schools where redshirting is common and schools where no one does it so there is a really wide range of abilities, expectations and ages all coming together.

I remember both as a student and a staff member when there would be drug busts or fighting it was already an issue of who was a minor vs who was already 18. Having more kids going into their senior year at 18 and 19 really increases the pool of legal adults attending school. A 19 year old is still a teenager but they are still far away from being 13/14 like some of their classmates. This has to cause some issues around dating and relationships too.

[plutosmoon]

About a third of my graduating high school class was 19 or about to be 19 when we graduated, I was 17, I graduated hs in 1996. This was a result of the readiness class they put a lot of kids with spring and summer birthdays into. Readiness as a grade no longer seems to exist at the several elementary schools I attended, but it was a state wide thing in the early 80s where I grew up. The school district recommended my brother attend the program because he as being seen for speech services and had a June birthday, my mom declined, but he would have turned 19 at the end of senior year if he'd gone. The district filled 2 readiness classes a year, each having 15-20 kids. It was a popular program, state sanctioned redshirting, resulting in a lot of 19 or almost 19 year old seniors. These kids weren't embarrassed by their age, and weren't seen any differently. I was a freshman at 13 turning 14 and did have almost 19 year old seniors in several of my classes, it really wasn't a big deal, but it did happen. Most of the 19 year olds had the same maturity level as a senior in HS because, well those were their peers. I'll reiterate I'm am adamantly opposed to redshirting, but when it happens, it really isn't a big deal to the kids at least in my experience where it was a frequent occurrence. My only thing was a a 14 year old freshman, I was absurdly jealous of my classmates who could drive by the end of freshman year.

[Bad Dingo]

Sept 18, 2022 11:00:23 GMT -5 AJL said:

A lot of school districts will not let students enter kindergarten at 7. They will be placed in 1st grade. And in what world are 19 year olds are taking classes with 14 year olds? I feel like this thread is getting out of hand and now y'all are just making wild assertions that have not basis in reality.

A small portion of students are red-shirted. The article said that it was roughly 6%. Most kids that start kindergarten later are those who would be very young in their grade to begin with. No school is putting 19 year olds in classes with 14 year olds. And because I will die on this hill --- 19 year old teenagers are not men.

I'm pretty sure redshirting isn't a thing in DDs district but she's 14 in 10th grade (12/31 cut off in CT) and has been in various classes with seniors since last year (13). So if there were any redshirting going on it would be entirely plausible that a 13 year old would be in a class with a 19 year old.

[goldengirlz]

Sept 18, 2022 7:10:55 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

Sept 17, 2022 12:57:16 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I think that’s why I struggle with feeling sympathy. Girls are still graduating into a world that’s heavily stacked against them — but now that they’re over-performing in an educational system that was largely designed by men, suddenly there’s a problem and we need to re-level the playing field.

Also, I’m not denying research that the brains of boys and girls might develop at different rates. But a lot of that research is based on brain scans, and that’s still a relatively nascent field of study. There’s a limit to how much we can extrapolate in terms of how much those differences impact learning. And most of the practical differences tend to be seen in lower-income and non-white boys — which begs the question of how much of the difference in outcomes can be attributed to “science” and how much is social-cultural factors like racism? For instance, Black boys are less likely to be diagnosed with and treated for ADHD — and more likely to be disciplined (and disciplined more harshly) for behavioral problems.

And then there’s the question of how much gender is a social construct anyway: how much is nature and how much is nurture. Interestingly, The Atlantic also had an article this week about doing away with gender-based sports: www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2022/09/sports-gender-sex-segregation-coed/671460/

Again, no kids and no research or experience on this topic of my own, but what you’re saying also seems to lend to the question of gender-norm based play and expectations.  Given the still very prevalent “boys will be boys” attitude surrounding boys play and behavior, while girls are groomed from a young age to sit still/listen and engage in quieter activities, is it really a big surprise that they tend to handle a structured academic environment better than boys at least in the primary school levels?  

Right, exactly.

And that’s part of the limitation with brain scan studies.

We can say, such-and-such areas of the brain look different, but we’re not at the point where we can definitively say that the significance of those differences is [fill-in-the-blank]. There are so many other factors that go into gender-based differences and we’re just beginning to understand them. We also can’t say for sure whether the brain changes based on social-cultural signals or whether we’re born with a “fixed” brain structure based on our gender.

This article, for example, explains why studying the brains of transgender individuals to try to find a “cause” for gender dysmorphia might be doing more harm than good: www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-search-for-a-lsquo-cause-rsquo-of-transness-is-misguided/?amp=true

And it also speaks to the larger issues with using brain scan studies to explain gender-based differences.

[heygrey]

Sept 18, 2022 11:00:23 GMT -5 AJL said:

A lot of school districts will not let students enter kindergarten at 7. They will be placed in 1st grade. And in what world are 19 year olds are taking classes with 14 year olds? I feel like this thread is getting out of hand and now y'all are just making wild assertions that have not basis in reality.

A small portion of students are red-shirted. The article said that it was roughly 6%. Most kids that start kindergarten later are those who would be very young in their grade to begin with. No school is putting 19 year olds in classes with 14 year olds. And because I will die on this hill --- 19 year old teenagers are not men.

Rural districts with small populations. I had several classes my freshman year with seniors. We also had a few "super seniors" who needed an extra semester or 2 to finish up their credits so they would have been 19 when they graduated. Some classes were structured by grade level (english, history/socials), but others weren't (math, science, languages, gym, all electives). In a small school it's not possible to offer the same classes multiple times to separate ages. If that's the class you needed to take, you'd have a wide range of ages as classmates. 

eta: it's been 2 decades since I graduated, but the school structure is still the same. 

[tacokick]

Sept 18, 2022 11:00:23 GMT -5 AJL said:

A lot of school districts will not let students enter kindergarten at 7. They will be placed in 1st grade. And in what world are 19 year olds are taking classes with 14 year olds? I feel like this thread is getting out of hand and now y'all are just making wild assertions that have not basis in reality.

A small portion of students are red-shirted. The article said that it was roughly 6%. Most kids that start kindergarten later are those who would be very young in their grade to begin with. No school is putting 19 year olds in classes with 14 year olds. And because I will die on this hill --- 19 year old teenagers are not men.

Right but they can easily be 7 halfway though the year when other kids are still 5. People aren’t just redshirting kids who are days away from the cut off. Larger than 12 month gaps are not uncommon. Freshman take classes with seniors. A freshman could be 14 the whole year (or even turning 14 during the year) while a late starting senior could be turning 19 before the end of the school year. I don’t think anyone is arguing passionately here that 19 year olds are men.

[omgzombies]

Sept 18, 2022 9:44:32 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Sept 18, 2022 7:22:24 GMT -5 cherryvalance said:

I hear you, but here's why I am sharing what I'm sharing. This isn't personal, or about me, but our experience just directly addresses what I saw in your and other comments.

First, the original statements I'm responding to both said that it's completely incomprehensible to ever hold a kid back. You said holding kids in daycare or home won't help, they need to be socialized, etc. I was directly addressing what I think is a ridiculous assumption that people redshirt with no other academic or social outlet for their kids. This is why this topic is somewhat fraught--there's no term for people who hold back for a variety of concerns and it all gets lumped into "seeking an advantage."

Second, I maintain that the assumption that the school district is the only access to services harms kids and parents. Schools are facing insane budget shortfalls (and have been), existing personnel are stretched far too thin, and there's a staff shortage (and mostly in the very areas that are most vulnerable--staff who provides special services). So a blanket approach doesn't work, as many have already said. How does sending a kid who isn't ready (by district personnel recommendation) and has access to services outside school help kids who rely on in-school services? It further stretches those services and takes away from those who actually have no other option.

Now, we can certainly admit it's not fair that some families have access to services outside of school and others don't. But taking a piece of the very narrow pie available when you don't actually have to isn't great either.

Third, the extreme focus on "rigor" we see in kindergarten classrooms isn't just a byproduct of redshirting. It seems like people assume that if all kids were the same age in the class, they'd *have* to see that the curriculum is inappropriate and adjust accordingly. I've been a public school teacher for nearly twenty years and, spoiler alert, that's not happening. For one, parents are demanding academic content, because they think it will give their kid a leg up. Second, and most importantly, politicians have pushed a series of harmful measures and the focus on testing is what has pushed inappropriate expectations down the line. If a kid needs to be doing X by 2nd grade, and his teachers are being evaluated by that, they need 1st grade teachers to be doing Y and then they needs k teachers to be doing Z.

I agree that the system needs deep change at all levels, but parents are going to drive this at a state and national level, because the curriculum standards aren't district level.

I’m not sure how else to say that we, and the article, aren’t talking about children with diagnosed issues who are receiving outside services from a young age and who are told by their health care providers they should not attend school on time. That is not what the issue is at all or what people are referring to by the term redshirting.

The article is odd for many reasons one of which is that it states that boys are being left behind and should be redshirted, ignoring the fact that boys are the ones who are being redshirted most often and have been for many years yet are still apparently “behind”. He is also not talking about boys receiving extra services outside of school, he is talking about boys staying home an extra year because girls are performing better at school, are the majority at colleges and boys need to “catch up”.

And yes, parents do push for more rigorous academics and it’s often the same ones that are redshirting. Of course your 6-7 year old is bored, he’s in kindergarten with 4-5 year olds. I do not see this push in areas where redshirting is not allowed or where the vast majority of children are sent to school on time out of economic necessity and need of services. I also find it disturbing that so many school systems and as you point out, politicians, bend to the whims of parents rather than structuring the school around what is equitable and developmentally appropriate.

People of means will always be able to access outside services on their own. That is not the reality for everyone. The school system literally is the only way many, many families have access to services or even learn about their child’s potential issues and need for help. That is truly not up for debate. These are the children, families and communities who are being left behind. There is not a wealth of easily accessible, affordable community health and support services outside of the public school system. That’s why public schools have had to step up and start providing things like breakfast and before and aftercare. Why schools will send home bags of food and supplies at winter break or provide meals over the summer.

It’s not taking away from other children to get services for your child through the school. As I am sure you must know, it’s a numbers game. If XX number of kids need services then they will hire XY staff. If the only kids who need help and asking the school to provide these services are ones with parents who can’t take their kids to outside services (and often for the same reasons can’t constantly advocate at the school) then the numbers are lower and they don’t hire as many people. If parents took their vigor in tracking down experts and specialists outside of the school to demanding the school provide adequate services we could see changes that benefits not only their own child but others.

I get that, but I think you're discounting the rather large number of kids who do not YET have a diagnosis, but who are still not meeting general benchmarks.  Many times the ages from 4-8 are when kids are finally at a point where they can start to get a diagnosis.  This means being sheparded from doctor to doctor, specialist to specialist, educational test to educational test, because the parents DO have this ambiguous feeling that something is not right.  And dismissing those parents and their educational concerns for their child while they try to get access to doctors/testing etc makes it that much harder. 

It's not always as simple as marching them into the pediatrician and saying "my kiddo is behind their peers" and suddenly they get a diagnosis and voila everything is fine.  When those kids are put into a classroom when they aren't able to handle it, either because they aren't meeting the same benchmarks as their peers, or because they do not yet have a diagnosis and the supports that come with it, can mean a host of issues.  It can mean sitting and watching your child struggle in a classroom and seeing them feel like a constant failure, feeling lonely because they can't relate to their peers, watching them shrink and feel less sure of themselves, learning to hate school, and not being sure if it's something you're doing wrong as a parent, wondering if you could be doing something better, wondering if you are just overreacting and your child is just naturally closer to the bottom of the bell-curve, meanwhile being on 3 different (and very long) waitlists for specialists because it's almost impossible to get in and be seen. 

The vitriol and disdain for red-shirting does not exist in a bubble, and I think it's important to recognize that it can also be harmful.  

My youngest was held back, no one would every know he has an IEP, and I am grateful every day that he is on the smaller side for height and weight, and not at all into sports because of this exact criticism.  

Again, the best solution is to work at developing a more equitable system for ALL kids and one that is capable of better meeting individual needs of students, whether it be that they are more or less advanced in certain areas, and focusing less on judging parents.

[goldengirlz]

ALSO: using brain scan studies to justify red-shirting is so ironic and infuriating because they’ve LONG been used to “explain” why women aren’t as good at STEM as boys (see: Harvard President Larry Summers’ 2005 comments).

So which is it? Do girls have more mature brains so we’re better at school? Or are our brains better structured for the liberal arts and that’s why we don’t do as well at “hard” disciplines?

Anyone who claims they can definitively answer those questions — let alone make policy recommendations off of them — is full of bullshit.

[tacokick]

Sept 18, 2022 12:17:00 GMT -5 omgzombies said:

Sept 18, 2022 9:44:32 GMT -5 tacokick said:

I’m not sure how else to say that we, and the article, aren’t talking about children with diagnosed issues who are receiving outside services from a young age and who are told by their health care providers they should not attend school on time. That is not what the issue is at all or what people are referring to by the term redshirting.

The article is odd for many reasons one of which is that it states that boys are being left behind and should be redshirted, ignoring the fact that boys are the ones who are being redshirted most often and have been for many years yet are still apparently “behind”. He is also not talking about boys receiving extra services outside of school, he is talking about boys staying home an extra year because girls are performing better at school, are the majority at colleges and boys need to “catch up”.

And yes, parents do push for more rigorous academics and it’s often the same ones that are redshirting. Of course your 6-7 year old is bored, he’s in kindergarten with 4-5 year olds. I do not see this push in areas where redshirting is not allowed or where the vast majority of children are sent to school on time out of economic necessity and need of services. I also find it disturbing that so many school systems and as you point out, politicians, bend to the whims of parents rather than structuring the school around what is equitable and developmentally appropriate.

People of means will always be able to access outside services on their own. That is not the reality for everyone. The school system literally is the only way many, many families have access to services or even learn about their child’s potential issues and need for help. That is truly not up for debate. These are the children, families and communities who are being left behind. There is not a wealth of easily accessible, affordable community health and support services outside of the public school system. That’s why public schools have had to step up and start providing things like breakfast and before and aftercare. Why schools will send home bags of food and supplies at winter break or provide meals over the summer.

It’s not taking away from other children to get services for your child through the school. As I am sure you must know, it’s a numbers game. If XX number of kids need services then they will hire XY staff. If the only kids who need help and asking the school to provide these services are ones with parents who can’t take their kids to outside services (and often for the same reasons can’t constantly advocate at the school) then the numbers are lower and they don’t hire as many people. If parents took their vigor in tracking down experts and specialists outside of the school to demanding the school provide adequate services we could see changes that benefits not only their own child but others.

I get that, but I think you're discounting the rather large number of kids who do not YET have a diagnosis, but who are still not meeting general benchmarks.  Many times the ages from 4-8 are when kids are finally at a point where they can start to get a diagnosis.  This means being sheparded from doctor to doctor, specialist to specialist, educational test to educational test, because the parents DO have this ambiguous feeling that something is not right.  And dismissing those parents and their educational concerns for their child while they try to get access to doctors/testing etc makes it that much harder. 

I’m not at all, I’m saying that the school is the place where most issues are noticed and where there is a legal mandate to help these children so getting kids into school means more children have access to services that they may need. More people requesting services equals more services being available. That benefits everyone. Sending kids to school can help obtain equality.

Many redshirting parents are keeping their kids home so they can be better at sports or they are “small” for their age or seem immature. That doesn’t mean they have or their parents even think there is an issue. Or in the case of the article, they want to keep them home because girls are attending college at a higher rate than boys. We aren’t talking about people who are “redshirting” for medical or actual, serious concerns or issues. That’s not even really redshirting, that’s healthcare.

[frlcb]

Sept 18, 2022 11:00:23 GMT -5 AJL said:

A lot of school districts will not let students enter kindergarten at 7. They will be placed in 1st grade. And in what world are 19 year olds are taking classes with 14 year olds? I feel like this thread is getting out of hand and now y'all are just making wild assertions that have not basis in reality.

A small portion of students are red-shirted. The article said that it was roughly 6%. Most kids that start kindergarten later are those who would be very young in their grade to begin with. No school is putting 19 year olds in classes with 14 year olds. And because I will die on this hill --- 19 year old teenagers are not men.

My 14 year old freshman has two classes that also have kids from 10th-12th grade in them. He does not turn 15 until the Spring, and it is entirely possible that he could be in a class with someone who has turned 19. Where I am many of the kids who are redshirted that I know are not Summer birthdays, they are spring birthdays and would not have been the youngest, but in doing so it makes my son with a spring birthday one of the youngest, which is crazy with an 8/31 cutoff. 

I should also add my experience is likely different because it is with private schools, where they often encourage families to hold back Summer birthdays.

[abs]

Sept 18, 2022 12:58:10 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Sept 18, 2022 12:17:00 GMT -5 omgzombies said:

I get that, but I think you're discounting the rather large number of kids who do not YET have a diagnosis, but who are still not meeting general benchmarks.  Many times the ages from 4-8 are when kids are finally at a point where they can start to get a diagnosis.  This means being sheparded from doctor to doctor, specialist to specialist, educational test to educational test, because the parents DO have this ambiguous feeling that something is not right.  And dismissing those parents and their educational concerns for their child while they try to get access to doctors/testing etc makes it that much harder. 

I’m not at all, I’m saying that the school is the place where most issues are noticed and where there is a legal mandate to help these children so getting kids into school means more children have access to services that they may need. More people requesting services equals more services being available. That benefits everyone. Sending kids to school can help obtain equality.

Many redshirting parents are keeping their kids home so they can be better at sports or they are “small” for their age or seem immature. That doesn’t mean they have or their parents even think there is an issue. Or in the case of the article, they want to keep them home because girls are attending college at a higher rate than boys. We aren’t talking about people who are “redshirting” for medical or actual, serious concerns or issues. That’s not even really redshirting, that’s healthcare.

If it only it were that easy that getting kids into school gets them access to services earlier.  In ways it's the complete opposite.  Things like dyslexia and ADHD can get blown off at 5 and 6 because it's developmentally appropriate for kids that age to reverse letters and have challenges with concentration.  Special Education funding is horrifyingly low.  Moderate struggles are often not enough to qualify for an IEP.  I am not sure how it works where you taught but where I live the more people requesting services means less is available--not more.  From that aspect if you are on the cusp (within a month or two of the cutoff date) I truly understand redshirting.  Sometimes more time is exactly what is needed.

Unless you've been in a situation where your child needs services it's really impossible to understand how much work goes into advocating for them and getting them what you need.  

Again I do not support the idea--at all--that all boys should be redshirted.  There is some oversimplifying going on this thread though.

[wanderingback]

Sept 18, 2022 9:24:04 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

Sept 18, 2022 6:56:46 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

Your first thought it always where I go with these discussions.  I don’t have kids, so no real horse in this race, but I am so, so curious about the back-end results of the redshirting trend.  Have the first classes where this was more prominent gotten to high school grad. years yet in significant numbers?  I just am having a lot of trouble envisioning a lot of good coming from being 19+ and still in high school.  Especially if most of those older students are boys (ie. men at that age).  

My red-shirted son will start his senior year of high school 2 weeks after he turns 18. There might be a small handful of kids who have just turned 19 by the time the graduate. The thought of sending my just barely 18 year old off to college was always in the back of my head, too. We had a disastrous situation with a family member, and that’s always on my mind, too. Giving them a chance to be 18/an adult while still living at home before moving across the country independently is definitely a consideration for many families of kids born close to cut-offs.

I stressed about this situation literally from the moment I found out my due date. My other son is a December baby and I love that it never even had to cross my mind. I really wish everyone just had hard lines with no exceptions, but when you live in an area that doesn’t, the decision just isn’t always as simple as people would like to think. For the vast majority of people in this situation, it’s not so kids can be ahead, it’s so they can keep up.

Wow. That’s interesting how our brains work. When my future child is set to start kindergarten has not crossed my mind once as a stressor!

[lilac05]

Sept 18, 2022 14:06:48 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Sept 18, 2022 9:24:04 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

My red-shirted son will start his senior year of high school 2 weeks after he turns 18. There might be a small handful of kids who have just turned 19 by the time the graduate. The thought of sending my just barely 18 year old off to college was always in the back of my head, too. We had a disastrous situation with a family member, and that’s always on my mind, too. Giving them a chance to be 18/an adult while still living at home before moving across the country independently is definitely a consideration for many families of kids born close to cut-offs.

I stressed about this situation literally from the moment I found out my due date. My other son is a December baby and I love that it never even had to cross my mind. I really wish everyone just had hard lines with no exceptions, but when you live in an area that doesn’t, the decision just isn’t always as simple as people would like to think. For the vast majority of people in this situation, it’s not so kids can be ahead, it’s so they can keep up.

Wow. That’s interesting how our brains work. When my future child is set to start kindergarten has not crossed my mind once as a stressor!

It definitely isn’t in most people’s minds! However, as an SLP, I’ve been closely involved with families making these decisions over the years and have professional concerns about the developmental appropriateness of the current curriculum at our schools. (ETA: I wasn’t giving any advice as to what other families should do, as that is way out of my scope…just listening as people shared.) Also, I just missed the cut-off by a week as a kid and missed being in the grade with my best friends. In addition, I was heavily involved in MOPS (Moms of Preschoolers) when my kids were little, and this was a common discussion at the table every year. If I remember correctly, you live in a state where exceptions are few and far between (if ever), so it makes sense that it would never cross your mind.

[atexan]

My oldest son's birthday is May 30. He started school on time and therefore was 5 for all of K. The school he went to was rich and white. All of the spring birthday parties we went to that year were for kids turning 7. It was maddening. He's in a much more economically and racially diverse school now so it's not an issue.

[lilac05]

omgzombies, I agree with you that there is almost always more that goes into a decision that people know…and no one else needs to know specifics. We stand by our decision for our youngest, as it was following the recommendations of professionals who know him and our district specifically. I’m sure people judge us because my son is in the 99th percentile for his age, but his size and sports had absolutely nothing to do with our decision.

As far as long-term studies, I don’t know of anything specifically, but redshirting is nothing new. My brother is 48 and to this day, my mom regrets not keeping him back a year. He struggled academically and socially his entire school career. Never enough to qualify for services, just enough for him to feel like he couldn’t keep up. She feels like keeping him back a year would have made a difference for him.

For school services, unfortunately, more kids requesting services just means higher caseloads for those serving kids. There simply isn’t enough funding and there aren’t enough providers to make that scenario of supply & demand work like suggested above. The caseloads are astronomical and really limit the potential for progress. If we could give all kids the therapy they needed in schools, we might have fewer kids needing therapy because some would graduate…but when you get one 20 min session in a group of 6 one time a week…it’s going to take a LONG time to make significant progress.

[lolalolalola]

My girls have December birthdays (Dec 31 Cut off) and I did not hold them back. I totally regret that decisions as they are the youngest, not by 12 months, but often by 18+ months. They both hate it.

[pinkdutchtulips]

We’re still waiting on my dd’s adhd/add dx. It was only last year in SEVENTH grade that the district agreed that the assessments needed to see if the problems she’s had since basically kinder were a result of adhd/add. She’s in 8th now and I have my first IEP meeting this week. Public schools are ridiculously slow in assessing and often adopt a wait & see approach delaying necessary services.

[sent]

My sibling and I both had December birthdays and my dad put us "ahead" so we were always the youngest in our grades. DD's EDD was the end of January so I was relieved that I would not have to deal with the issue since there would be no reason to push "ahead" by being born the following year.

She was born a preemie by 7 weeks and gave herself an early December birthday. She was eager to learn as she moved up in her daycare and into pre-K. FFS. So I sent her to K at age 4 and put her "ahead" according to my state but "on time" according to NYC which is 15 minutes from my house. Since I lived through it, I believe being the youngest is a mindset. So what if you are the youngest and can't drive or you get to college and are the youngest and can't drink? Life is full of disappointment. Driving is a privilege and not an automatic reward just because you live in a HCOL neighborhood where everyone can afford to give kids a spare car. Drinking has consequences. Oh the inhumanity of your mom dropping you off somewhere. I think that these are useful lessons to learn in high school and college. And then no matter how much we juggle when our kids officially enter Kindergarten, someone has to be the youngest. I got in a disagreement with some colleagues over this subject who didn't want their precious to be the youngest because they could afford to give them that supposed "advantage." Everyone was quoting that Malcolm Glidewell chapter that I think brought the whole "but sports" reason into the limelight and legitimized it. Good thing you couldn't see my eyes rolling so hard on the internet.

If anything, I think DD might be served well with a gap year at some point due to her being able to finish high school "early." Since she was in private schools until 2nd grade, it was never required to provide any services. I had to push hard during second grade which was the pandemic year to get her evaluated for speech. She was on Zoom and masked in school so no one ever noticed. Eye rolls again. 

There are few things in my life I can control and DS's birthdate was one. I made sure he could not have a December birthday so I wouldn't have to go through this again.

[jeaniebueller]

Sept 18, 2022 15:35:33 GMT -5 lolalolalola said:

My girls have December birthdays (Dec 31 Cut off) and I did not hold them back. I totally regret that decisions as they are the youngest, not by 12 months, but often by 18+ months. They both hate it.

I am a mid Dec birthday that started early and I guess I don’t understand this. Can you give an example of why they hate it? I had friends who could drive me when I turned 16 last in class and being 17 when I started college didn’t cause me any issues. I’m on their side, I just don’t see why they should be uncomfortable over about their age when the red shirters are the ones who theoretically too old.

[AdaraMarie]

I hate red shirting. It stinks for my July kid to be over a year younger than other kids in her class.
I started high school at 13 and had a 19 year old hit on me in math class. Yuck.

Maybe it should be just as hard to hold your kid back as it is to start them early - testing and applications and special approvals etc.

[erbear]

Sept 18, 2022 11:00:23 GMT -5 AJL said:

A lot of school districts will not let students enter kindergarten at 7. They will be placed in 1st grade. And in what world are 19 year olds are taking classes with 14 year olds? I feel like this thread is getting out of hand and now y'all are just making wild assertions that have not basis in reality.

A small portion of students are red-shirted. The article said that it was roughly 6%. Most kids that start kindergarten later are those who would be very young in their grade to begin with. No school is putting 19 year olds in classes with 14 year olds. And because I will die on this hill --- 19 year old teenagers are not men.

To be fair, when I was a freshman in high school, I was in classes with seniors (French 2, for example — they had started French as juniors and you had to take two years). I was 13. If they were 19-20, that would have been very odd and I don’t think it would sit well.

[lilac05]

Sept 18, 2022 17:00:43 GMT -5 AdaraMarie said:

I hate red shirting. It stinks for my July kid to be over a year younger than other kids in her class.
I started high school at 13 and had a 19 year old hit on me in math class. Yuck.

Maybe it should be just as hard to hold your kid back as it is to start them early - testing and applications and special approvals etc.

We have testing in our school district. There are still some parents who choose to go a private route even if they didn’t test into the Alternative Kindergarten program, but it’s good to have a start. It’s a more objective way to look at skills and what kids are expected to be able to do going into Kindergarten.

These conversations always make me realize just how different things are across the country.

[pixy0stix]

Sept 18, 2022 11:47:50 GMT -5 heygrey said:

Sept 18, 2022 11:00:23 GMT -5 AJL said:

A lot of school districts will not let students enter kindergarten at 7. They will be placed in 1st grade. And in what world are 19 year olds are taking classes with 14 year olds? I feel like this thread is getting out of hand and now y'all are just making wild assertions that have not basis in reality.

A small portion of students are red-shirted. The article said that it was roughly 6%. Most kids that start kindergarten later are those who would be very young in their grade to begin with. No school is putting 19 year olds in classes with 14 year olds. And because I will die on this hill --- 19 year old teenagers are not men.

Rural districts with small populations. I had several classes my freshman year with seniors. We also had a few "super seniors" who needed an extra semester or 2 to finish up their credits so they would have been 19 when they graduated. Some classes were structured by grade level (english, history/socials), but others weren't (math, science, languages, gym, all electives). In a small school it's not possible to offer the same classes multiple times to separate ages. If that's the class you needed to take, you'd have a wide range of ages as classmates. 

eta: it's been 2 decades since I graduated, but the school structure is still the same. 

Yeah, this was (and still is) not uncommon at my rural NE high school. Not to mention classes like choir, band, and all extra curriculars not just sports like theatre, competitive speech, clubs, etc. There's a lot of crossover.

Now I don't care that the age groups are mixed, I just found it odd that schools aren't wholesale age group mixed outside of core classes. Again, different perspectives.

I will say, the kids that were 19 when they graduated, it was VERY clear that they were at a different age maturity than the rest of the class. They were so done with high school before the rest of us were. I knew 3 kids that were going to be 19 when they graduated, and they all dropped out before finishing school.

[Jalapeñomel]

Around here, some kids repeat their senior year so they can do a sport in college. Now that’s some crazy “redshirting”, and it baffles me why a parent would do that.

[pixy0stix]

Sept 18, 2022 17:59:52 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Around here, some kids repeat their senior year so they can do a sport in college. Now that’s some crazy “redshirting”, and it baffles me why a parent would do that.

That's insane. Especially if a kid has to repeat all the classes that they passed before. 

[plutosmoon]

Sept 18, 2022 17:59:52 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Around here, some kids repeat their senior year so they can do a sport in college. Now that’s some crazy “redshirting”, and it baffles me why a parent would do that.

I see this a lot in my line of work. It's usually recommended by a coach because a kid's grades aren't good enough to get into a particular type of college. It's easier to get into a top college as a student who did a PG year than as a transfer from a less top college. A lot of private high schools have a program just for this, so the kids aren't usually just repeating senior year at their own high school.

[omgzombies]

Also as a fun aside, it's also worth noting that the Montessori model actually promotes mixing age groups in classrooms. Children are grouped into a cohort spanning 3 years, usually 3-6, 6-9, and 9-12, etc. The larger age ranges allow opportunities for leadership for the older kids, and allow the younger kids to engage in more peer-based learning, and helps lessen comparisons/competition between students because there is a much wider range within the classroom.

[pixy0stix]

Sept 18, 2022 18:12:53 GMT -5 plutosmoon said:

Sept 18, 2022 17:59:52 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Around here, some kids repeat their senior year so they can do a sport in college. Now that’s some crazy “redshirting”, and it baffles me why a parent would do that.

I see this a lot in my line of work. It's usually recommended by a coach because a kid's grades aren't good enough to get into a particular type of college. It's easier to get into a top college as a student who did a PG year than as a transfer from a less top college. A lot of private high schools have a program just for this, so the kids aren't usually just repeating senior year at their own high school.

The shit rich people do...