Atlantic Article Re- Redshirting Boys (@@)

[wanderingback]

Sept 18, 2022 14:37:39 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

Sept 18, 2022 14:06:48 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Wow. That’s interesting how our brains work. When my future child is set to start kindergarten has not crossed my mind once as a stressor!

It definitely isn’t in most people’s minds! However, as an SLP, I’ve been closely involved with families making these decisions over the years and have professional concerns about the developmental appropriateness of the current curriculum at our schools. (ETA: I wasn’t giving any advice as to what other families should do, as that is way out of my scope…just listening as people shared.) Also, I just missed the cut-off by a week as a kid and missed being in the grade with my best friends. In addition, I was heavily involved in MOPS (Moms of Preschoolers) when my kids were little, and this was a common discussion at the table every year. If I remember correctly, you live in a state where exceptions are few and far between (if ever), so it makes sense that it would never cross your mind.

Makes sense.
To generalize I think this is something white people worry about (based on both personal and professional interactions).
I actually have no clue how kindergarten works here or the other state I live in at times. Figure I’ll cross that bridge when the time is closer, and definitely not while my child is still a fetus.
Sorry to get off topic.

[arehopsveggies]

Sept 18, 2022 18:25:01 GMT -5 omgzombies said:

Also as a fun aside, it's also worth noting that the Montessori model actually promotes mixing age groups in classrooms. Children are grouped into a cohort spanning 3 years, usually 3-6, 6-9, and 9-12, etc. The larger age ranges allow opportunities for leadership for the older kids, and allow the younger kids to engage in more peer-based learning, and helps lessen comparisons/competition between students because there is a much wider range within the classroom.

I would love this even as a public school teacher.
I don’t like how artificially we group kids into homogeneous age classes.

[aprilsails]

I find this topic endlessly fascinating as an Ontarian who graduated high school at the age of 19 when this was NORMAL. Prom was held on my 19th birthday, and since alcohol is also legal at 19 here, I stocked the bar for my hotel after-party. Until 2003 we had a grade year 13 (OAC or Ontario Advanced Credits). It was basically only required for people who planned to go to university and was basically a year of AP classes. Many of my friends graduated a year before, and I was also in the last year of OAC, so no one after me has that particular experience. Let me tell you, it very clearly dates you as being of a particular age here.

I absolutely had band with freshmen, and since my school was 7-OAC, I crossed paths with 12 year olds. The OAC students, since we had extra spares, were used as a huge resource to run tutoring programs and coach jr. sports and band classes, etc. I don’t recall anything untoward happening among any of my peers. Either when I was young, or when I was old. 18 year olds don’t really care about 14 year olds in my experience.

Now, the Ontario school system at the time would be super bizarre from the point of view of Americans. We had half day Jr and Sr kindergarten, all play based. My brother started at 3. I started at 4. My Mom’s biggest regret is not holding back my brother. He never even graduated grade 9 and struggled throughout school due to ADD, social issues, and taking after the very short side of my family.

For me, that meant 8 years in Elementary school and 7 years in high school. That’s a lot of free schooling. My kids will do 8 and 6. They will all start on time because redshirting is not a thing here since the kids have two years of full time play based kindergarten before grade 1.

Honestly, I love the Ontario education system, although it is plagued by issues the same as everywhere else. I just listen in on these kinds of discussions and thank my lucky stars.

[erbear]

Sept 18, 2022 18:25:01 GMT -5 omgzombies said:

Also as a fun aside, it's also worth noting that the Montessori model actually promotes mixing age groups in classrooms. Children are grouped into a cohort spanning 3 years, usually 3-6, 6-9, and 9-12, etc. The larger age ranges allow opportunities for leadership for the older kids, and allow the younger kids to engage in more peer-based learning, and helps lessen comparisons/competition between students because there is a much wider range within the classroom.

This is for younger kids. It’s not the same in high school AT ALL when some of the kids are grown adults (at least in size and hormones) and others are children.

My school does mixed age groups in the 3-6 classes (pre-k). Not after that.

[omgzombies]

Sept 18, 2022 20:54:18 GMT -5 erbear said:

Sept 18, 2022 18:25:01 GMT -5 omgzombies said:

Also as a fun aside, it's also worth noting that the Montessori model actually promotes mixing age groups in classrooms. Children are grouped into a cohort spanning 3 years, usually 3-6, 6-9, and 9-12, etc. The larger age ranges allow opportunities for leadership for the older kids, and allow the younger kids to engage in more peer-based learning, and helps lessen comparisons/competition between students because there is a much wider range within the classroom.

This is for younger kids. It’s not the same in high school AT ALL when some of the kids are grown adults (at least in size and hormones) and others are children.

My school does mixed age groups in the 3-6 classes (pre-k). Not after that.

While there are not many Montessori high schools (I think there's only 150 or so in the US) the ones that do also offer mixed age classrooms.

[wanderingback]

Sept 18, 2022 20:54:18 GMT -5 erbear said:

Sept 18, 2022 18:25:01 GMT -5 omgzombies said:

Also as a fun aside, it's also worth noting that the Montessori model actually promotes mixing age groups in classrooms. Children are grouped into a cohort spanning 3 years, usually 3-6, 6-9, and 9-12, etc. The larger age ranges allow opportunities for leadership for the older kids, and allow the younger kids to engage in more peer-based learning, and helps lessen comparisons/competition between students because there is a much wider range within the classroom.

This is for younger kids. It’s not the same in high school AT ALL when some of the kids are grown adults (at least in size and hormones) and others are children.

My school does mixed age groups in the 3-6 classes (pre-k). Not after that.

Fwiw, there are some middle and high school Montessori schools and they do stick to their model where different ages can be in the same class.

Also I don’t have the best memory but I think I remember some of my classes in high school when I was a sophomore (I’m young for my grade) having seniors in my class. I don’t think I ever found it to be a problem.

[pixy0stix]

Y'all didn't have seniors dating freshman? We had that all the time and I always thought it was weird.

[sent]

Sept 18, 2022 18:33:05 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Sept 18, 2022 18:12:53 GMT -5 plutosmoon said:

I see this a lot in my line of work. It's usually recommended by a coach because a kid's grades aren't good enough to get into a particular type of college. It's easier to get into a top college as a student who did a PG year than as a transfer from a less top college. A lot of private high schools have a program just for this, so the kids aren't usually just repeating senior year at their own high school.

The shit rich people do...

Just to play college level sports.

I learned something new today.

[cmeon]

Sept 18, 2022 21:07:30 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Sept 18, 2022 20:54:18 GMT -5 erbear said:

This is for younger kids. It’s not the same in high school AT ALL when some of the kids are grown adults (at least in size and hormones) and others are children.

My school does mixed age groups in the 3-6 classes (pre-k). Not after that.

Fwiw, there are some middle and high school Montessori schools and they do stick to their model where different ages can be in the same class.

Also I don’t have the best memory but I think I remember some of my classes in high school when I was a sophomore (I’m young for my grade) having seniors in my class. I don’t think I ever found it to be a problem.

What "model" are they sticking to? Maria Montessori rarely mentioned teens at all, the methodology ends after upper elementary/the 9-12yos cycle.

[lostrn]

Sept 18, 2022 21:24:26 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Y'all didn't have seniors dating freshman? We had that all the time and I always thought it was weird.

We definitely had that. My first high school boyfriend when I was a freshman was a junior. It was good for me, he had a car and was an actual nice guy. It didn't last terribly long but it was a nice way to start high school lol.

[penguingrrl]

I’m surprised to hear mixed grade classes aren’t the norm everywhere for HS. While English wasn’t since everyone needed 4 years to graduate, most other courses had multiple grades. Depending on where you track for math at the end of 5th grade, algebra 2 can be freshman, sophomore or junior years. Bio can be freshman or sophomore, placing chem as sophomore or junior year, and so on. That’s forgetting choir, band, theater, art, all of which are classes for credit in my HS and all students are eligible and meet all together. My current sophomore has friends in all grades, and misses their friends who graduated last year.

Also, so many people told me to hold my oldest back. They have an 8/30 birthday with a 9/30 cutoff. I sent them on time because they were ready. I haven’t regretted it once. And find it odd that there were kids over 18 months older in their grade. People held back boys with Match- April birthdays and no professional guidance that they should, which I still find absurd.

[cmeon]

DS has a late July birthday in a Sept 1st state- and it's just never been a big deal. We have enough kids who started school in a late cut-off state move in that he's never the youngest, and while red-shirting isn't what I'd call popular- we do have a fair number of kids held back (3rd grade reading proficiency!!) and lots of recent immigrants with shaky educational histories/who may not fit well into our age/grade system. For a few months, DD had a 13yo girl in her 4th grade class- she was sad to see her go!

Both my kids are pretty academically advanced, so that means they take classes with older kids a lot. DS had 2 classes with seniors as an 8th grader, 3 as a 9th grader, and has 4 this year. And it's great- he's loved watching them apply to schools/get accepted, and they've helped him narrow down/discover college programs and even helped him arrange his schedule for this year (one of them noticed he was missing a class that would help later- none of the counselors had even noticed [but agreed]). I really hope DD has the same experience, her brother will be a senior the year she starts- and she knows a lot more kids (his friends) than he did going into HS, so in some ways it should be even less challenging.

I do think there are some older seniors- it happens. I actually don't think my state has a "maximum age" for high school enrollment, but our district moves gen-ed kids to an alternate school when they turn 20. Some ESE kids are on campus well into their early 20's, but they're usually in work/life programs that seem to be very helpful and not at all problematic.

There is just so much trouble with education in this country, this one thing- it just feels like a drop in the bucket. It would be nice if we could bend a little either way when the situation calls for it (after all, K cut-offs are largely arbitrary), but privileged people will always take any give and run with it.

[lolalolalola]

Sept 18, 2022 16:44:49 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Sept 18, 2022 15:35:33 GMT -5 lolalolalola said:

My girls have December birthdays (Dec 31 Cut off) and I did not hold them back. I totally regret that decisions as they are the youngest, not by 12 months, but often by 18+ months. They both hate it.

I am a mid Dec birthday that started early and I guess I don’t understand this. Can you give an example of why they hate it? I had friends who could drive me when I turned 16 last in class and being 17 when I started college didn’t cause me any issues. I’m on their side, I just don’t see why they should be uncomfortable over about their age when the red shirters are the ones who theoretically too old.

They both have said independently that they wish they weren’t the youngest. They both have anxiety, neither has excelled in school sports, have many friends or are a “leader” in their classes. I wonder if it’s from always feeling like they are “behind” the others. (They both get great marks- this is nothing to do with academics. )

DH was always the youngest in his class but the oldest was 12 months older than him, not 18+ months. That’s the difference. My kids are 2 years apart and there are kids in my 14 yo’s class who are closer to my 16 yo’s age.

I think when so many other kids are being held back it changes the dynamic.

[sent]

I finally read the article and see Malcolm Glidewell was mentioned right at the start of it. Sigh.

I don't know what to make of the information they presented. Our curriculums were set by men. Women had a chance to participate and are killing it. Our brains are different, male versus female. My opinion is as follows - will our curriculum ever be re-designed to account for this? Seeing how every decision coming to of the government lately ignores science, I don't think so.

One thing I had not thought of prior to reading this is maybe there is a case for attending an all-girls high school.

Lastly, aren't there countries where education is separated by gender? My cousins went to school in the Middle East and attended all-girls schools from K - 12. As far as I knew, attending a co-ed school wasn't an option for them. Has anyone looked at the educational progress and achievement of those societies?

[sillygoosegirl]

Am I the only one who wonders if "boys develop later in all areas" is just a self-fulfilling prophecy due to everyone expecting it and having different expectations for boys vs girls in this regard? For that matter, I've always assumed that more women in higher ed is due to young women and girls (and their parents and mentors) knowing the uphill battle they will face in the workforce and pushing them to be prepared for it. Not to mention that a lot of the actually well compensated trades you can go into without a college degree remain super male dominated, and I think young women know those career paths remain largely closed to them still. I mean, how many women plumbers, welders, and construction workers do you run across? And I don't think anyone is actively encouraging young women to consider careers in those areas (unlike college track STEM).

[omgzombies]

Sept 18, 2022 21:42:10 GMT -5 cmeon said:

Sept 18, 2022 21:07:30 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Fwiw, there are some middle and high school Montessori schools and they do stick to their model where different ages can be in the same class.

Also I don’t have the best memory but I think I remember some of my classes in high school when I was a sophomore (I’m young for my grade) having seniors in my class. I don’t think I ever found it to be a problem.

What "model" are they sticking to? Maria Montessori rarely mentioned teens at all, the methodology ends after upper elementary/the 9-12yos cycle.

I couldn't tell you, we've now reached the end of my Montessori knowledge base repository.  I had a friend attend a Montessori high school when I was growing up, and I also did Montessori from 1st-3rd grade until we moved out of state, which is why I'm somewhat familiar.  A quick google search seems to indicate it's much the same as their elementary schools, an emphasis on community, connection to nature, emphasis on "spiral learning" and interconnected ideas, uninterrupted work periods for core-curriculum, etc.  I imagine it's fairly similar in structure to many quaker schools.

I will say that I certainly wouldn't mind a slightly different grouping in schools.  Our elementary school here does K-6th, and then 7-8, then 9-12, and we've loved having the 6th graders stay in the elementary school.  There's such a big leap between 6th and 8th grade.  I've often thought it would be beneficial to do K-6, 7-9th, 10-12th grade for similar reasons.    

[bears]

Sept 18, 2022 21:24:26 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Y'all didn't have seniors dating freshman? We had that all the time and I always thought it was weird.

My school was 7-12 and we had 7th graders dating seniors. I'm really glad my kids have a separate middle and high school.

[abs]

Sept 19, 2022 7:13:40 GMT -5 bears said:

Sept 18, 2022 21:24:26 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Y'all didn't have seniors dating freshman? We had that all the time and I always thought it was weird.

My school was 7-12 and we had 7th graders dating seniors. I'm really glad my kids have a separate middle and high school.

Ewwww.

We definitely had freshman dating seniors but that is too much.

[somersault72]

The article essentially says send girls on time and hold boys back a year. I feel like that makes weird and possibly problematic issues when these kids get to HS.

A couple of anecdotes: I was surprised at how many 7 year olds were in my son's kindergarten class (he turned 6 the last week of kindergarten--we get out in May here).
One of my son's friends turned 15 at the beginning of the month, my son won't be 15 until mid May. I don't notice a difference in maturity between them, if anything, my son is the more mature one.

I have a son. Obviously I don't want him to struggle in life, but I'm not seeing any evidence around here anyway where the white man is being kept down due to schooling or any other reason. I'm side eyeing this article.

[shauni27]

Sept 17, 2022 18:49:09 GMT -5 DarcyLongfellow said:

This whole topic gets me fired up. DH and I both have October birthdays and we're both always the oldest in our classes. Our 2 girls are both summer birthdays, and we sent both of them on time. That meant that DD1 started kindergarten less than 2 weeks after she turned 5. There were kids in her class who turned 7 in the spring -- they were 15 months older!

But, honestly, I think the solution to all of this nonsense is to stop trying to make kindergarteners do the curriculum that 1st graders did not that long ago. Half DD1's kindergarten class *started* the year already knowing how to read. Not because they were brilliant but because the popular nearby preschool prided itself on requiring all its 4 year olds to "graduate" already reading.

We need to make all academic programs play-based until age 6 or 7, then start formal schooling.

our school has kindergarten as entirely play based with zero intervention offered until 1st grade. I am thrilled with this approach. Especially because my kiddo is on the younger side of the classroom of kiddos and he is just not ready to be sitting down writing yet; he will do it, but he hates it (which is evident in the way he writes, lol.)

Hearing about all these kids who are redshirted being 19 or even 20 when they graduate is insane. S will be 17. I remember turning 18 my senior year and I no longer had to have my parents sign my out for appointments. It felt like FREEDOM!

[waverly]

We definitely have juniors/ seniors dating 8th grade/ 9th grade here.  I am sure it happens all the time, but I only know of 2 personally.  Both were kind of yuck to me. The first relationship ended up fine, but still yuck in the younger years.  The other one has a bigger gap with the male being 17 and the girl is 14, started dating when she was 13.  

[kitty]

Sept 18, 2022 23:48:24 GMT -5 sillygoosegirl said:

Am I the only one who wonders if "boys develop later in all areas" is just a self-fulfilling prophecy due to everyone expecting it and having different expectations for boys vs girls in this regard? For that matter, I've always assumed that more women in higher ed is due to young women and girls (and their parents and mentors) knowing the uphill battle they will face in the workforce and pushing them to be prepared for it. Not to mention that a lot of the actually well compensated trades you can go into without a college degree remain super male dominated, and I think young women know those career paths remain largely closed to them still. I mean, how many women plumbers, welders, and construction workers do you run across? And I don't think anyone is actively encouraging young women to consider careers in those areas (unlike college track STEM).

The trades angle not being mentioned stuck out to me too. I feel like "they" keep saying we have to not stigmatize the trades because we need plumbers and welders and machinists to replace the boomers who are retiring but now also it's an issue if boys aren't going to college?

www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/08/whats-behind-the-growing-gap-between-men-and-women-in-college-completion/

According to this pew research article, the % of men under 25 with a 4 year degree has been increasing during the years the Atlantic author cites so it's not like fewer men are going to college - it's just that women are making bigger gains.

[pixy0stix]

Sept 19, 2022 7:13:40 GMT -5 bears said:

Sept 18, 2022 21:24:26 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Y'all didn't have seniors dating freshman? We had that all the time and I always thought it was weird.

My school was 7-12 and we had 7th graders dating seniors. I'm really glad my kids have a separate middle and high school.

Man, I'm going to parent shame this, because where the fuck were they?

[brady2012]

I haven't read the article yet, but I will openly admit that it did cross my mind when we were trying to have kids that I'd prefer not to have a kid in Sept-Dec or so just because I didn't want to pay for an additional year of daycare. If it had happened we would of dealt with it, but the financial impact of an extra year is significant enough that I thought about it.

I ended up with a June boy and July girl. Both entered K when they turned 5 and have been fine academically and emotionally (now in 4th and 6th). But where we live kids go to K on time for the most part anyway.

[livinitup]

My neighbor has a child in my DD’s class and they play a sport together. She had a birthday this weekend and I realized for the first time that she is a full year older than her peers in class. We had a December 15th cut off back when it was time to enroll in K, so she is a full three months older than the cut off date. That seems like a lot.

It kind of shocks me because I know a bunch of students who are born in October/November and went on time. So, not only are they young for their peer group (up to 10-11 months younger), They are also much young for their peer group who red shirted. Our other neighbor (born the same year,in November, went to school on time), is 2 months younger than her but a year ahead of her in school.

[Velar Fricative]

Sept 19, 2022 11:27:07 GMT -5 kitty said:

Sept 18, 2022 23:48:24 GMT -5 sillygoosegirl said:

Am I the only one who wonders if "boys develop later in all areas" is just a self-fulfilling prophecy due to everyone expecting it and having different expectations for boys vs girls in this regard? For that matter, I've always assumed that more women in higher ed is due to young women and girls (and their parents and mentors) knowing the uphill battle they will face in the workforce and pushing them to be prepared for it. Not to mention that a lot of the actually well compensated trades you can go into without a college degree remain super male dominated, and I think young women know those career paths remain largely closed to them still. I mean, how many women plumbers, welders, and construction workers do you run across? And I don't think anyone is actively encouraging young women to consider careers in those areas (unlike college track STEM).

The trades angle not being mentioned stuck out to me too. I feel like "they" keep saying we have to not stigmatize the trades because we need plumbers and welders and machinists to replace the boomers who are retiring but now also it's an issue if boys aren't going to college?

www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/08/whats-behind-the-growing-gap-between-men-and-women-in-college-completion/

According to this pew research article, the % of men under 25 with a 4 year degree has been increasing during the years the Atlantic author cites so it's not like fewer men are going to college - it's just that women are making bigger gains.

This is one reason why college is non-negotiable for my kids (both girls). I will not talk them out of become plumbers or mechanics but I want them to have the college degree too. I can only imagine the uphill battle they would have trying to establish a business or get hired as women plumbers or whatever.  

[Velar Fricative]

Sept 19, 2022 12:09:13 GMT -5 brady2012 said:

I haven't read the article yet, but I will openly admit that it did cross my mind when we were trying to have kids that I'd prefer not to have a kid in Sept-Dec or so just because I didn't want to pay for an additional year of daycare. If it had happened we would of dealt with it, but the financial impact of an extra year is significant enough that I thought about it.

I ended up with a June boy and July girl. Both entered K when they turned 5 and have been fine academically and emotionally (now in 4th and 6th). But where we live kids go to K on time for the most part anyway.

So I never had this thought while trying, but we were searching for a house when DD1 was a baby and one of the reasons we did not move from NYC to the NJ suburbs (the only other possibility given our job locations) is because she would have just missed the cutoff in the vast majority of school districts in NJ by literally a few hours (early October birthday, was nearly two weeks overdue too lol). Plus there was the risk of potentially moving to a town without full-time free kindergarten. So we stayed in NYC. And then soon after we got *really* lucky because free full-time Pre-K4 became a thing here, and then eventually free full-time Pre-K3 (which we only benefitted from with DD2, but it's still a huge perk to living here for so many families). 

DD1 is one of the younger ones in her 4th grade class (she is still 8 years old, NYC uses birth year for school enrollment so she's in a grade with all 2013-born kids), but she has thrived and I cannot imagine her being in 3rd grade right now.

[suburbanzookeeper]

I had a late July birthday so not only was I the youngest, I condensed grades in high school so I graduated at 16. I took two "gap" years so I would age into the peer group I was going to college with.

My daughter is a mid-September birthday and did Transitional Kindergarten here in CA, we were told no when we asked to bump her up to Kinder since she already had hit the academic milestones necessary. My son is a mid-March birthday and started school on time. His kinder teacher threw around having him repeat so he'd have a year with a smaller average class size (he's since been DX'd with dyslexia and ADHD). I have been in 504 meetings in the last two years for him where I've had to defend where he lands in terms of academic success that isn't developmentally appropriate when he has peers who are 12+ months older than him in the same grade. Add in COVID and being out of a regular classroom for 18 months... it's been real interesting.

[scm1011]

Sept 19, 2022 12:09:13 GMT -5 brady2012 said:

I haven't read the article yet, but I will openly admit that it did cross my mind when we were trying to have kids that I'd prefer not to have a kid in Sept-Dec or so just because I didn't want to pay for an additional year of daycare. If it had happened we would of dealt with it, but the financial impact of an extra year is significant enough that I thought about it.

I ended up with a June boy and July girl. Both entered K when they turned 5 and have been fine academically and emotionally (now in 4th and 6th). But where we live kids go to K on time for the most part anyway.

Same. Both my kids were IVF baby so we could plan (to a point). First kid I didn't think about it and ended up with a November baby ($$$). Second kid I planned my FET so that I wouldn't have to pay for almost another full year like I did with DS (thankfully round 1 took and I ended up with a late May baby that time). 

[seeyalater52]

Sept 19, 2022 15:02:57 GMT -5 scm1011 said:

Sept 19, 2022 12:09:13 GMT -5 brady2012 said:

I haven't read the article yet, but I will openly admit that it did cross my mind when we were trying to have kids that I'd prefer not to have a kid in Sept-Dec or so just because I didn't want to pay for an additional year of daycare. If it had happened we would of dealt with it, but the financial impact of an extra year is significant enough that I thought about it.

I ended up with a June boy and July girl. Both entered K when they turned 5 and have been fine academically and emotionally (now in 4th and 6th). But where we live kids go to K on time for the most part anyway.

Same. Both my kids were IVF baby so we could plan (to a point). First kid I didn't think about it and ended up with a November baby ($$$). Second kid I planned my FET so that I wouldn't have to pay for almost another full year like I did with DS (thankfully round 1 took and I ended up with a late May baby that time). 

By transfer #6 I’d completely given up on planning anything or even thinking that a transfer would ever become a baby so yeah, I’m a cautionary tale about daycare costs with my kid born 2 weeks after the cutoff. Whoops.