@@The White Flight from Football

[foundmylazybum]

Oct 2, 2022 14:28:41 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Sept 30, 2022 19:56:22 GMT -5 @villainv said:

We are Dolphins fans and watched both games. From what I understand, Tua was assessed after the hit he took on Sunday, by both a team doctor and an independent doctor who specializes in concussions, and he met the criteria to be allowed back in the game on Sunday. Then he took a bad hit last night and went to the hospital, where he has since been released. The assumption is concussion.

This is concerning because a) if he met the criteria to be allowed back into Sunday’s game, perhaps the criteria aren’t stringent enough, and B) suffering a second concussion when not recovered from the first can cause all kind of compounding problems beyond what one would normally see with two concussions spaced further apart.

Obviously ANY concussions are bad, but as a quarterback he should never get hit hard enough to end up with a concussion anyway (the play on Sunday was called a penalty, the play on Thursday was not). The whole enterprise of football has tried to reduce the number of concussions by changing rules of what kinds of hits are allowed, utilizing helmet technology, etc, but clearly it hasn’t been nearly enough.

FWIW, my sister is a sports medicine doctor who specializes in concussions and wouldn’t dream of letting her kids play football.

I’m a Bills fan, and as we now know, the independent doctor was fired by the NFLPA. The issue, I guess, is no matter how independent, the doctor is being paid by the NFL, right?

I didn’t think Milano hit Tua that hard, but he went down hard/hit the back of his head, was dizzy and stumbling when he got up, and then the team spun it like he was having back spasms and had just re-injured his back like we didn’t know what we all saw. It was awful all around. I didn’t watch Thursday’s game but saw the next morning that he was hit again and taken out on a stretcher.

In boxing it’s called having a Glass Jaw when a player is easily injured and that seems to be Tua. Dude hasn’t ever played an entire NFL season. I know they’ve cracked down on roughing the passer in the last few years, but it rings hollow when 1) the goal of part of the defensive line is to stop/interrupt the pass, and 2) the rest of the game/hits are so violent.

If you suffer a concussion, the likelihood you will suffer another is like 2-3x that of a person who has not had a concussion. Especially since concussions impact decision making and reaction areas of the brain.


It was pretty predictable that Tua would suffer another hit and concussion by being placed back in too early.

[jamaicam]

I was reading recently about heading the ball in soccer and the risks from doing that at a young age. It is now banned for under 10 in the US and then there are strict rules about how much/when it can be introduced. The parallels with this discussion interested and saddened me - I beleive soccer (in the US) is more of a middle-class white sport so it is not surprising that rules to protect (young white) kids have been put in place; while football doesnt protect its players as much

(Non-American who has never followed or watched american football so I may be a little wrong here)

[Velar Fricative]

Oct 3, 2022 9:02:58 GMT -5 jamaicam said:

I was reading recently about heading the ball in soccer and the risks from doing that at a young age. It is now banned for under 10 in the US and then there are strict rules about how much/when it can be introduced. The parallels with this discussion interested and saddened me - I beleive soccer (in the US) is more of a middle-class white sport so it is not surprising that rules to protect (young white) kids have been put in place; while football doesnt protect its players as much

(Non-American who has never followed or watched american football so I may be a little wrong here)

Interestingly, while soccer is renowned here as a popular youth sport among white families, when you get to the elite and professional levels, including up to Team USA, the men's team in particular is very diverse. Many are first-generation Americans as well. But I'm not familiar with the talent pipeline for men's soccer and how they foster development. 

[jamaicam]

Oct 3, 2022 9:18:41 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Oct 3, 2022 9:02:58 GMT -5 jamaicam said:

I was reading recently about heading the ball in soccer and the risks from doing that at a young age. It is now banned for under 10 in the US and then there are strict rules about how much/when it can be introduced. The parallels with this discussion interested and saddened me - I beleive soccer (in the US) is more of a middle-class white sport so it is not surprising that rules to protect (young white) kids have been put in place; while football doesnt protect its players as much

(Non-American who has never followed or watched american football so I may be a little wrong here)

Interestingly, while soccer is renowned here as a popular youth sport among white families, when you get to the elite and professional levels, including up to Team USA, the men's team in particular is very diverse. Many are first-generation Americans as well. But I'm not familiar with the talent pipeline for men's soccer and how they foster development. 

Interesting! I know it is huge among immigrant communities (as it is the largest sport in the world) but I really got the impression that at the youth level, it was a fairly affluent sport.

[chedifuen]

We're a no football family, playing or watching. My husband, who is a POC, played football all through college. He'll be impacted by that his entire life, with both brain and body injuries.

He was adamant that our kids never play football and I'm completely onboard.

[lilac05]

Oct 3, 2022 9:33:08 GMT -5 jamaicam said:

Oct 3, 2022 9:18:41 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Interestingly, while soccer is renowned here as a popular youth sport among white families, when you get to the elite and professional levels, including up to Team USA, the men's team in particular is very diverse. Many are first-generation Americans as well. But I'm not familiar with the talent pipeline for men's soccer and how they foster development. 

Interesting! I know it is huge among immigrant communities (as it is the largest sport in the world) but I really got the impression that at the youth level, it was a fairly affluent sport.

There are COUNTLESS “Club” level organizations. Our city isn’t big and we have at least 3-4 different large clubs, all with multiple teams at each level. Many families choose it because it’s “safer” than football…but that’s all relative. Depending on where you look, soccer is one of the highest-risk sports for injuries, but they do tend to be more muscle:joint/bone than brain. (But heading the ball is a definite concern, too!) People pay $$$$ for these clubs (some are run solely by volunteers). Pay to play clubs brings out all of the affluent kids. But the teams that are affordable and/or purely skills based (like schools) are much more diverse, in my experience.

@@@my 11 year old just moved up to 14U soccer this year. It’s a pure rec league (some kids on his team have never played before). This is the first year they’re allowed to head the ball. I have asked him not to do it. I don’t trust that his volunteer coach has the knowledge and skills to teach him how to do it safely, and he’s just not at the skill level where it’s necessary, either.

[whattheheck]

I just read that Tua Tagovailoa will be starting this week. That seems a bit soon to me.

[susiebw]

Focusing strictly on the concussion/CTE part of this conversation - is there just less research on hockey in this regard, or are these injuries really this much more prevalent in football? Because I feel like I always hear about CTE in the context of football and never hockey. Football seems a lot more violent to me, but when they get hit in hockey, they're often moving so much faster and their helmets seem to offer a lot less coverage, so it seems like it could be a lot worse. Maybe its because everyone is fighting everyone on a football field, and hits in hockey are more one on one that it feels less violent to me. But then hockey will turn into a full on fist fight with gloves and helmets off and no one does anything about it.

[wanderingback]

Oct 18, 2022 9:01:12 GMT -5 susiebw said:

Focusing strictly on the concussion/CTE part of this conversation - is there just less research on hockey in this regard, or are these injuries really this much more prevalent in football? Because I feel like I always hear about CTE in the context of football and never hockey. Football seems a lot more violent to me, but when they get hit in hockey, they're often moving so much faster and their helmets seem to offer a lot less coverage, so it seems like it could be a lot worse. Maybe its because everyone is fighting everyone on a football field, and hits in hockey are more one on one that it feels less violent to me. But then hockey will turn into a full on fist fight with gloves and helmets off and no one does anything about it.

I believe hockey has the 2nd most concussions after football. I don’t know the data re: CTE specifically but pretty much every play in football you’re getting hit/brain getting "rattled" even though it’s not a concussion which is not the same in hockey. Plus from a pure numbers standpoint there are more football players than hockey players. I grew up all over the country and never attended near a high school that had a hockey team, whereas everywhere had football.

[Deleted]

I thought I had read that girls/women's soccer had an insanely high amount of concussions (not has much as football though but less then hockey). this was a few years ago though so maybe things have changed?

[Deleted]

Oct 18, 2022 12:52:41 GMT -5 @heyitsme said:

I thought I had read that girls/women's soccer had an insanely high amount of concussions (not has much as football though but less then hockey). this was a few years ago though so maybe things have changed?

Gymnastics isn’t great either (for men or women).

[heygrey]

Oct 18, 2022 9:01:12 GMT -5 susiebw said:

Focusing strictly on the concussion/CTE part of this conversation - is there just less research on hockey in this regard, or are these injuries really this much more prevalent in football? Because I feel like I always hear about CTE in the context of football and never hockey. Football seems a lot more violent to me, but when they get hit in hockey, they're often moving so much faster and their helmets seem to offer a lot less coverage, so it seems like it could be a lot worse. Maybe its because everyone is fighting everyone on a football field, and hits in hockey are more one on one that it feels less violent to me. But then hockey will turn into a full on fist fight with gloves and helmets off and no one does anything about it.

I'm guessing you just don't hear about it as much in the states because hockey doesn't dominate sport culture like football does. We definitely discuss it/hear of concussion injuries in hockey in Canada. 

[susiebw]

Oct 18, 2022 14:17:19 GMT -5 heygrey said:

Oct 18, 2022 9:01:12 GMT -5 susiebw said:

Focusing strictly on the concussion/CTE part of this conversation - is there just less research on hockey in this regard, or are these injuries really this much more prevalent in football? Because I feel like I always hear about CTE in the context of football and never hockey. Football seems a lot more violent to me, but when they get hit in hockey, they're often moving so much faster and their helmets seem to offer a lot less coverage, so it seems like it could be a lot worse. Maybe its because everyone is fighting everyone on a football field, and hits in hockey are more one on one that it feels less violent to me. But then hockey will turn into a full on fist fight with gloves and helmets off and no one does anything about it.

I'm guessing you just don't hear about it as much in the states because hockey doesn't dominate sport culture like football does. We definitely discuss it/hear of concussion injuries in hockey in Canada. 

That's a really good point about the dominant sport culture.  I can't stand football, and I think it's kind of ridiculous how fanatic people get about pro sports generally, but especially so with football in the US.

[nothingcontroversial]

Oct 2, 2022 11:11:16 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

ETA:  Sports offer a lot of positive benefits for kids, but they’ve also become a way to get into and afford college. 

Yeah, that has made me feel uneasy for a while.

I grew up in an economically depressed area. My dad was college educated, but he grew up poor himself, and my parents had five kids. My parents made it very clear to me the entire time that I was growing up that I had to have an extracurricular activity in high school because it would "look good on college and scholarship applications." 

I was not at all athletic, so my parents forced me to be in the high school marching band. That is, I started out playing an instrument in the elementary and junior high bands. I wanted to quit in junior high, but my parents wouldn't let me. 

I"m not really sure how the "out of pocket" costs associated with my playing an instrument compare to the out of pocket costs of playing a sport - and being good enough at that sport to play in high school. My high school desperately needed people for the band, so I didn't have to audition to be in it. I just had to show up for all of the required practices and performances. My parents had to pay for my instrument (rent-to-own spread out over several years), but they didn't have to pay for me to go away to any special camps (there was no extra cost for my high school's band camp, which wasn't an overnight camp), and they didn't have to pay for me to be in any special leagues. 

I think that having "four years of high school marching band" on my college application helped me have access to some non-musical financial incentives and opportunities that I might not have otherwise have received. 

One of my sisters didn't play an instrument, but she did high school chorus and high school show choir. She sang in a choir at her college that performed for graduation and other special events, and in return, her college gave her an extra $500 in scholarship money every year. I know that this is actually a small amount of money, but every little bit helped for her. 

[rubytue]

Oct 18, 2022 12:52:41 GMT -5 @heyitsme said:

I thought I had read that girls/women's soccer had an insanely high amount of concussions (not has much as football though but less then hockey). this was a few years ago though so maybe things have changed?

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22287642/

girls soccer is #2 behind boys football. 

The majority of concussions resulted from participation in football (47.1%, n = 912), followed by girls' soccer (8.2%, n = 159), boys' wrestling (5.8%, n = 112), and girls' basketball (5.5%, n = 107).

[seeyalater52]

Resurrecting this because I know there was some discussion of catastrophic injuries from football throughout the thread. NFL player in critical condition after apparent heart issue on the field. So awful.

www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2023/01/03/damar-hamlin-suffers-serious-injury-during-buffalo-cincinnati-game/69771881007/

[bronxgirl]

Jan 2, 2023 22:12:24 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Resurrecting this because I know there was some discussion of catastrophic injuries from football throughout the thread. NFL player in critical condition after apparent heart issue on the field. So awful.

www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2023/01/03/damar-hamlin-suffers-serious-injury-during-buffalo-cincinnati-game/69771881007/

I'm watching the coverage on MSNBC right now.  It's so scary. He and his family are in my thoughts.

[icedcoffee]

I'm bringing this discussion here instead of the ML thread.

All the talk of "fuck the NFL" has gotten me thinking. What could they do to make professional football safer? Is there anything? Or are people more saying that football should not be played.

I'm legit asking. I'm not into football and don't have strong opinions. More interested in discussing.

[wanderingback]

Jan 5, 2023 12:51:22 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

I'm bringing this discussion here instead of the ML thread.

All the talk of "fuck the NFL" has gotten me thinking. What could they do to make professional football safer? Is there anything? Or are people more saying that football should not be played.

I'm legit asking. I'm not into football and don't have strong opinions. More interested in discussing.

Did you read the article posted in the OP?
To be clear, there is a lot more wrong with the NFL other than just concussions/safety.
In regards to safety/ concussions, there was a recent controversy in regards to their protocols when a player came back to the game too soon, so yes there are things that can be improved there.
Yes I’d be fine if the nfl didn’t exist lol.

[noodleoo]

Jan 5, 2023 12:51:22 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

I'm bringing this discussion here instead of the ML thread.

All the talk of "fuck the NFL" has gotten me thinking. What could they do to make professional football safer? Is there anything? Or are people more saying that football should not be played.

I'm legit asking. I'm not into football and don't have strong opinions. More interested in discussing.

Personally, I'd be happy if the NFL went away completely.  But I know that will never happen, it is so ingrained in American culture (see the replies to my post on the ML thread for a perfect example).  But is unconscionable that with everything that is known about how awful, exploitative, racist and dangerous the NFL is, that people turn a blind eye to it all because they enjoy watching it.  The amount of money that is made off of watching these players destroy their bodies for other people's entertainment just blows my mind.  I think in the distant future, people will look back at the NFL as the modern day gladiator fights.