College students were failing organic chem. Who's to blame?

[minzy]

I have lots of thoughts as 90% of the people in my major aspired to go to med/dental/vet school. I remember a physiology professor on Sept 12 or 13 saying that if we couldn’t get it together and hack it that week, we may want to rethink going into medicine. That guy was a dick but he wasn’t wrong that sometimes shit gets tough. Having done both a handful of ochem classes and law school, I saw a lot of parallels with ochem and the first year of law school, quite frankly, in terms of the “weeding out.” Not everyone was going to get through either in the position they’d been accustomed to up to that point in their life, and it was a huge wake up call for a lot of people, to be pressed flat along a curve to see how they measured up.

I was a big fish at my small high school, then a small fish at my undergrad. By the time I got to law school, having experienced it both ways, when I didn’t start off with a 4.0, I didn’t go completely off the rails like some of my 1L classmates did. Seriously, most of my friends were so smart, but also so stressed out halfway through our 1L year that they thought about quitting, and/or were deep into drinking. There were many mental breakdowns (and worse). This wasn’t even a tip top school. I was okay though mentally, kind of like, okay, it’s not the prettiest way through, but I’m doing it...

Also being out of the workforce for a ten year span during which smartphones really came into being, I notice I have days where I can really focus on my work, and then what I term “ADHD days,” where it’s really hard to buckle down and work substantively on one thing without interruption. I do not have ADHD, but I have a very heavy workload and am surrounded by all this [waves hands around]. I’m lucky I keep it together and juggle it okay most days, but I’d say the trouble concentrating days are much more frequent for me now than they were when I first left the workforce almost a dozen years ago. I think I can place at least some “blame” on my phone and my curiosity to know things right away...(?)

[sent]

I took Organic Chemistry. I got an A both semesters. Here is what I remember:

1) The text book was purple
2) The professor was left handed
3) The word "chiral"

I don't remember anything else. I could write a similar list for Calculus, another required course for med/dental school. I don't even know what to make of these kids complaining at NYU. At some point you have to memorize stuff if you're going to med school. I don't have a lot of positive things I could say about my college experience socially, but for those aspiring to go to med/dental/vet school, I think it was helpful to attend a small private school versus a giant school like NYU. There was a lot of help available and the goal was not to weed out people if you were genuinely interested in becoming a physician.

[tiki]

I really doubt this is purely a Gen Z or smartphone issue. Maybe infinite scroll-trained attention spans make it a bit worse, but Organic has always been challenging material that often gets taught by disinterested research faculty with abysmal teaching skills. I think I might have gotten Bs (curved waayyyy up), but I sure as heck didn't retain any knowledge from it beyond test day. H took the equivalent credits in the UK, and said the approach there of making it 3 semesters so it can be combined with intro pchem made what reacted with what make a lot more sense.

[al dente]

Oh man all I have to add is I never learned about atoms or the period table/elements in highschool and my mind was absolutely blown my first day of organic chemistry. And the fact that everyone else seemed to already have a baseline understanding of those things. I really tried but I was so far behind at that point.

I will also say I have never learned how to study. It was a real issue. Are people taught that in school? Or do you just figure it out?

[1yeartogo]

I feel like there is a huge ongoing dialogue in higher Ed (not just Ochem) about being a student ready college and coming to the student vs. expecting students to conform to a school/professors course demands. This is related to equity gaps, and that pre-college many students are not afforded the same foundational educational opportunities, supports, and skill sets (time management/study skills) to be successful.

Hence if you have courses which are designed to “weed out” those who can’t cut it it increases institutional barriers to success and doesn’t level the playing field built on institutional racism.

On the flip side professors sometimes feel out in a catch 22, I shouldn’t pass you from English if you can’t write an essay, or OChem if you can’t prove on the tests that you understand the content.

It’s a terrible situation of trying to make education accessible for all but placing a huge burden on each professor. If a student literally isn’t coming to class, studying, putting in effort do they deserve to pass? If a student is busting their ass but didn’t have the foundation to be successful how can you work with them to get them to where they need to be.

It is a much broader global education access issue in the US that has to be addressed at the pre-k-12 level before students even get to higher Ed.

[rupertpenny]

There are some additional details missing from the article that I think are relevant and provide additional context:

1. This professor was hired as an adjunct (“a series of yearly contracts”)
2. The adjuncts union at NYU is between contracts and having a very difficult time negotiating a new contract
3. NYU is a very expensive school that does not have a large endowment (relatively speaking), basically everything is tuition-funded and admin is TERRIFIED that the gravy train will stop running. This dynamic is hardly unique to NYU but it is very pronounced there.

[rupertpenny]

Also, the graduate student union went on strike last year when contract negotiations stalled out, and it resulted in a contract that met many of their demands. This move by admin could backfire in a big way if it pushed adjunct faculty to strike.

[kath16]

Oct 4, 2022 4:07:59 GMT -5 al dente said:

Oh man all I have to add is I never learned about atoms or the period table/elements in highschool and my mind was absolutely blown my first day of organic chemistry. And the fact that everyone else seemed to already have a baseline understanding of those things. I really tried but I was so far behind at that point.

I will also say I have never learned how to study. It was a real issue. Are people taught that in school? Or do you just figure it out?

i was this kid in high school. skated by without having to work too hard. 

freshman year of undergrad hit me like a freight train. i did not have this baseline skill set of "how" to learn. previously i had just remembered stuff or figured it out as i went. i almost failed out of college based on my first semester. thankfully i pulled my head out of my butt and turned it around. 

i don't know if these skills are being taught more widely in high school today, but i have a specific focus for my kids regarding HOW they learn and not just what they learn. 

[formerlyak]

@@@@

Study skills are sometimes taught in high school. AVID does a good job of it. However, AVID is for a specific demographic, and criteria is a bit different at each school. At our HS, it’s for the B students who need a little extra support in that area. They need to interview and get teacher recommendations. My teen’s GPA was too high to qualify, but his study skills sucked. His freshman year was Covid and their Zoom classes were morning, so on my lunch every day, we’d talk about study strategies. We were lucky that I had the time and the background to do that.

Now he’s a junior and the AP teachers basically assign everything at the start of a unit and expect them to pace themselves and be ready with assignments complete on test day. DS is thriving, but a lot of kids are not. The wait until the last minute and get overwhelmed. They can’t use the assignments to study because they waited too long to do them. I think this approach is a gift at this point because they get to develop the skills they will need later. But I have friends with kids at the neighboring, much more wealthy, high school who tell me this would never fly there. Parents would be in the office complaining that the teacher wasn’t helping the kids enough and making the class too hard.

[ssmjlm]

Oct 4, 2022 4:07:59 GMT -5 al dente said:

I will also say I have never learned how to study. It was a real issue. Are people taught that in school? Or do you just figure it out?

Back in the day, I can remember taking tests at school to determine what kind of learner you were. And I realized I was a hand to paper/visual learner. I don't know if they're still doing that or not.

I have to write everything down. I still carry a notepad around at work for meetings and have to do lists for tasks. I have a ton of stuff written in my notes app in my phone.

If you tell me something, I do not process it by hearing it. I process it by writing it down while you're talking. 

I took copious notes in college and grad school knowing all of this, but this was 20 years ago. I don't even know if I took a laptop and typed notes I would retain them the same way, but I know that's what a lot more kids are doing in school now.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Oct 4, 2022 4:07:59 GMT -5 al dente said:

I will also say I have never learned how to study. It was a real issue. Are people taught that in school? Or do you just figure it out?

I didn't really learn how to study until law school. Before then, it was largely either rote memorization or writing papers for me.

[aurora]

When I took differential equations in college, we had the regular math textbook and also a second textbook on how to study (with assigned, headed homework from both). I thought my professor was ridiculous at the time but now I understand why he did it, even if I don't think his methods were the best.

Sometimes I ask my students to reflect on what they could do better to learn the material, and it always surprises me when I get responses indicating they didn't realize they should read assigned readings outside of class (even before!) or that they can come to office hours to ask concept questions, not just when they're stuck on a HW problem.

[aurora]

Re. changing how we teach, there's a lot of research out there that the "sage on the stage" lecture format is ineffective for learning, so those professors who are still teaching that way *should* change!

But that doesn't take away from the fact that learning requires work from the students, no matter how good the professor is. In my limited sample size, COVID has indeed led to a little less resilience that hampers learning.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 4, 2022 4:07:59 GMT -5 al dente said:

Oh man all I have to add is I never learned about atoms or the period table/elements in highschool and my mind was absolutely blown my first day of organic chemistry. And the fact that everyone else seemed to already have a baseline understanding of those things. I really tried but I was so far behind at that point.

I will also say I have never learned how to study. It was a real issue. Are people taught that in school? Or do you just figure it out?

This is absolutely blowing my mind that you weren't taught this in school.

[lilac05]

Oct 4, 2022 9:09:22 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Oct 4, 2022 4:07:59 GMT -5 al dente said:

I will also say I have never learned how to study. It was a real issue. Are people taught that in school? Or do you just figure it out?

I didn't really learn how to study until law school. Before then, it was largely either rote memorization or writing papers for me.

I actually taught a Study Skills class (and a Time Management class) when I was in college. I think it was a job I had through the Honors Department. Sometimes I would go into a freshman-level class to teach and sometimes I’d teach at different clubs or groups. It was really interesting how many people had absolutely no clue how to study stuff. (But it was very much “Do as I say, not as I do” as I was the queen of cramming the night before and starting a 10 page paper at midnight!)

I think there are a lot of things at play here: study skills/attention span, privilege, unexpected challenges for really smart kids, consumer culture, teaching the same thing the same way for decades, mental health of students right now, and so much more. I also think that some of those “weed out” profs almost take pride in how many kids they can weed out of a group. That’s not healthy, either.

One thing I wish we talked about more is that sometimes these classes aren’t just so you can learn that specific topic. You might not ever actually use anything from OChem ever again…but it DOES teach you how to learn completely new information in new ways. It’s a different way of stretching your brain. Sometimes these classes are about learning how to learn, not just what to learn.

[eddy]

Oct 4, 2022 4:07:59 GMT -5 al dente said:

I will also say I have never learned how to study. It was a real issue. Are people taught that in school? Or do you just figure it out?

The shock I felt when I learned there was a method to studying and it was something that was taught. I learned this after I muscled my way through undergrad. I am still mad that I didn't learn those skills. 

I went to a rural school with limited opportunities. We didn't have AP classes for example.  I am not aware of any of my classmates or smart classmates in classes above or below me that were ever able to become a doctor. Maybe a couple chiros. But I am certain part of that was we were not prepared for something like a weeding out class like ochem.

[sonrisa]

Oct 4, 2022 4:07:59 GMT -5 al dente said:

Oh man all I have to add is I never learned about atoms or the period table/elements in highschool and my mind was absolutely blown my first day of organic chemistry. And the fact that everyone else seemed to already have a baseline understanding of those things. I really tried but I was so far behind at that point.

Your college let you take organic chemistry without taking a college level intro chemistry class? (or even high school level)? That is setting students up for failure. Orgo was sufficiently challenging with chem basics.

[gretchenindisguise]

Where would one look to learn study skills?

I think I got through everything by brute force.

[Susie]

Orgo was very nearly the death of me, although it's been 20+ years now since I took it.  I got 35% on one of my prelim exams.  With the curve it passed, probably in the C- range.  It was explicitly a pre-med weed out course at my hyper competitive Ivy, and weed me out, it did.  Lol. 

It was absolutely a miserable experience, and if I'd had a pandemic to blame, My 19 year old self probably would have.  But it would have been an excuse, not a reason.  The reality is that I probably didn't approach the learning the right way.  I went to the lectures, but I didn't go to office hours the way I should have.  I never got command of the subject matter the way I could have.  I spent lots of hours reading, but in a way that was comfortable for me, not in a way that was likely to be most effective.  I recognize that better in retrospect. 

I don't have sympathy for students who aren't attending class, aren't coming to office hours, etc.  They may very well be sinking time, but if they're not sinking time in the right ways, that's not a reason to give a pass or extra credit.

In my role now as an attorney, if I toil for billable hour after billable hour, but am not using the right resources to answer the question, the client isn't going to want to pay me just because I tried hard.  If I didn't have the ability to use the resources effectively, I didn't serve the client.  

I don't see those as different.  It's a lesson professionals have to learn at some point.  College seems like a fine time.

#teamprofessor

[pinkplasticdoll]

I have a degree in chemistry. A 50 in Orgo ended up rounding to an A, 40 to B so you get the idea. I had a professor that would erase as he wrote and if you didn't catch it then you were fucked and you hoped a classmate did catch it so I you could compare notes. I did fine in intro to chem, biochem and pchem but organic literally left me a shell of my former person by the end of the semester. It's a hard class, as with any other class there are good professors and there are not so good professors. I think I asked some folks on here who I knew had degrees in chemistry for advice and they were helpful but ultimately were like it's a hard class.

[mskitkat]

O-Chem was the class where the Prof pulled me aside and straight up told me not to even try to go to grad school because I would never be good at it. Even with a tutor and study sessions, I barely managed a C. I still have my BS in Chem and even worked as an organic synthesis chemist for a minute, but I never forgot my professor telling me not to even try.

Yes I’m still a little bitter.

[al dente]

Oct 4, 2022 9:19:23 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Oct 4, 2022 4:07:59 GMT -5 al dente said:

Oh man all I have to add is I never learned about atoms or the period table/elements in highschool and my mind was absolutely blown my first day of organic chemistry. And the fact that everyone else seemed to already have a baseline understanding of those things. I really tried but I was so far behind at that point.

I will also say I have never learned how to study. It was a real issue. Are people taught that in school? Or do you just figure it out?

This is absolutely blowing my mind that you weren't taught this in school.

yaaaa I learned about God creating the earth in science for all 13 years of my schooling. Sometimes rock types were thrown in as an obvious refute to how evolution couldn't have happened.
I also want to crawl in a hole I know it's periodic table, but it's been quote so many times now lol

[gerder3]

Oct 3, 2022 14:56:33 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Oct 3, 2022 14:52:50 GMT -5 bears said:

Teaching these weed-out courses in competitive schools cannot be an easy task, especially with a high proportion of pre-meds, who tend to be more grade focused than other students. At my school, the school stepped in and did a grade adjustment and, in future years, the professor was not as strict.

These kids have been taught that they are smarter, better, more worthy, etc. when in fact most of them are probably pretty mediocre/average. There is a LOT of privilege tied up in this.

I could not disagree more

I am back in undergrad in my 30's. The kids who are struggling right now are not privileged. They lost parents in the pandemic, could not access mental health treatment, were deprived of normal experiences that you and I absolutely benefitted from.

Meanwhile universities are not keeping their end of the bargain. Offering less and charging more but making the same demands. Oh you were out sick with COVID that you caught in a packed lecture hall? I hope you can teach yourself everything you need to know before the next high stakes exam!

Not to mention the enhanced standards in STEM for disciplines that don't necessarily require them? I am required to take Organic Chem as a Forestry Major. I wouldn't call it a "weed out class".

[aspentosh]

Orgo was my only C ever and *to this day* I remember how pissed my mom was. My brother (a doctor) told her it was the weeder class for med school and she backed off a little. It was totally traumatizing though.

That's my tangent, lol.

[joy]

Oct 4, 2022 10:50:32 GMT -5 mskitkat said:

O-Chem was the class where the Prof pulled me aside and straight up told me not to even try to go to grad school because I would never be good at it. Even with a tutor and study sessions, I barely managed a C. I still have my BS in Chem and even worked as an organic synthesis chemist for a minute, but I never forgot my professor telling me not to even try.

Yes I’m still a little bitter.

I wanted to be a physics major. You had to opt in freshman year to finish all the courses by senior year. I met with Physics professsor to consider my options. He looked at my current Calc 3 grade (which was piss poor because holy hell Calc 3 was hard) and said “I was not smart enough to be a physics major.” I left sad and bewildered.

I was a chemistry major instead. Kicked ass once I got to p-chem. I took that physics’ professors astronomy class senior year and got a fucking A+. He had no memory of me or what he said. Typical.

Maybe he was right, maybe I wasn’t meant to be a physics major. I was meant to be chemist instead.

[mskitkat]

Oct 4, 2022 14:31:34 GMT -5 joy said:

Oct 4, 2022 10:50:32 GMT -5 mskitkat said:

O-Chem was the class where the Prof pulled me aside and straight up told me not to even try to go to grad school because I would never be good at it. Even with a tutor and study sessions, I barely managed a C. I still have my BS in Chem and even worked as an organic synthesis chemist for a minute, but I never forgot my professor telling me not to even try.

Yes I’m still a little bitter.

I wanted to be a physics major. You had to opt in freshman year to finish all the courses by senior year. I met with Physics professsor to consider my options. He looked at my current Calc 3 grade (which was piss poor because holy hell Calc 3 was hard) and said “I was not smart enough to be a physics major.” I left sad and bewildered.

I was a chemistry major instead. Kicked ass once I got to p-chem. I took that physics’ professors astronomy class senior year and got a fucking A+. He had no memory of me or what he said. Typical.

Maybe he was right, maybe I wasn’t meant to be a physics major. I was meant to be chemist instead.

I’m currently in chemical sales still trying to figure out what I’m supposed to be.

[Jalapeñomel]

Organic is hard and it’s supposed to be hard. 30% was a normal average when I took the class. I took organic for chem/chem engineer majors, and it was intentionally difficult mostly to get students to drop the class and/or change majors. Many who dropped went and took organic for pre-med or nursing and did much better (this is likely unique to my university).

People have been bitching about students not learning or not working as hard as the generation before, well, for generations. This is not unique.

However, the instant gratification of the internet has made learning a much different ballgame than ever before. Many teachers and professors have been teaching the same way for 10/20/30 years and haven’t adjusted their pedagogy to match the world.

There’s also a lot of privilege for many of the suburban kids who are used to getting As with minimal effort.

I teach chem and AP chem so not the same, but it’s a hard class for most students. Students have to put in the time and effort to be successful, because all the hours in the day and teaching in the world isn’t gonna solidify the knowledge without an effort by the student (and even then, they may still struggle).

[InBetweenDays]

Oct 4, 2022 0:46:20 GMT -5 sent said:

I took Organic Chemistry. I got an A both semesters. Here is what I remember:

1) The text book was purple
2) The professor was left handed
3) The word "chiral"

I don't remember anything else. I could write a similar list for Calculus, another required course for med/dental school. I don't even know what to make of these kids complaining at NYU. At some point you have to memorize stuff if you're going to med school. I don't have a lot of positive things I could say about my college experience socially, but for those aspiring to go to med/dental/vet school, I think it was helpful to attend a small private school versus a giant school like NYU. There was a lot of help available and the goal was not to weed out people if you were genuinely interested in becoming a physician.

The only thing I remember from Organic Chemistry is the ROAr scares away the Markovnikov. I remember the saying but not what it means  

I loved physical chemistry, but organic chemistry is why I switched from a Chem major to an Environmental Studies major with a Chem minor. At which point my chemistry advisor told me such a move would mean rather than making $50K right out of college I'd work at Walmart for the rest of my life. Great advisor.

[smock]

See, this added context seems like a good reason to not renew the professor's contract. This is from a former student (who's currently a psych professor):

"Every semester, I tell my students the story of how NYU’s organic chemistry professor had a habit of publicly announcing the lowest exam grade and making snide comments at that person’s expense.

In Fall 2009, that person was me."

Later in the thread she says this: "The reason I tell my students that story is to let them know that:

1. I know what it feels like to try incredibly hard, still struggle, and then be made to feel AWFUL for having a hard time.

2. I’ll never treat them that way. Ever."

[StrawberryBlondie]

Oct 4, 2022 17:21:18 GMT -5 smock said:

See, this added context seems like a good reason to not renew the professor's contract. This is from a former student (who's currently a psych professor):

"Every semester, I tell my students the story of how NYU’s organic chemistry professor had a habit of publicly announcing the lowest exam grade and making snide comments at that person’s expense.

In Fall 2009, that person was me."

Later in the thread she says this: "The reason I tell my students that story is to let them know that:

1. I know what it feels like to try incredibly hard, still struggle, and then be made to feel AWFUL for having a hard time.

2. I’ll never treat them that way. Ever."

I had a law school professor my 1L year that did this. It was TERRIBLE for everyone, not just the person(s) who had the lowest grade.