College students were failing organic chem. Who's to blame?

[Velar Fricative]

NYU professor was dismissed due to poor test scores (gift link)

In short, this one unhappy chemistry class could be a case study of the pressures on higher education as it tries to handle its Gen-Z student body. Should universities ease pressure on students, many of whom are still coping with the pandemic’s effects on their mental health and schooling? How should universities respond to the increasing number of complaints by students against professors? Do students have too much power over contract faculty members, who do not have the protections of tenure?

And how hard should organic chemistry be anyway?



Dr. Jones, 84, is known for changing the way the subject is taught. In addition to writing the 1,300-page textbook “Organic Chemistry,” now in its fifth edition, he pioneered a new method of instruction that relied less on rote memorization and more on problem solving.



After retiring from Princeton in 2007, he taught organic chemistry at N.Y.U. on a series of yearly contracts. About a decade ago, he said in an interview, he noticed a loss of focus among the students, even as more of them enrolled in his class, hoping to pursue medical careers.

[Velar Fricative]

Basically, I mostly posted this because I was intrigued by the part about him noticing a loss of focus a decade ago, while I'm sitting here wondering if my smartphone has permanently altered my brain.

But still, we can talk about the rest of the article too lol.

[bears]

I feel nothing is new under the sun. Almost every scandal or complaint in here is something I saw in college or grad school.

We had a college-wide freak out my sophomore year of college, when a huge portion of the calculus class failed or was near failing. My roommate, a high school friend, took the course and said it was a heck of a lot easier than thhe AP calc we took 2 years earlier. Teaching these weed-out courses in competitive schools cannot be an easy task, especially with a high proportion of pre-meds, who tend to be more grade focused than other students. At my school, the school stepped in and did a grade adjustment and, in future years, the professor was not as strict.

[pixy0stix]

I have a university professor friend who sometimes says it's all but impossible to teach now because kids come in and expect the classes to be like high school where the parents handled any and all conflicts like failing because they're not doing the work.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 3, 2022 14:52:50 GMT -5 bears said:

Teaching these weed-out courses in competitive schools cannot be an easy task, especially with a high proportion of pre-meds, who tend to be more grade focused than other students. At my school, the school stepped in and did a grade adjustment and, in future years, the professor was not as strict.

These kids have been taught that they are smarter, better, more worthy, etc. when in fact most of them are probably pretty mediocre/average. There is a LOT of privilege tied up in this.

[cattledogkisses]

Back when I was a TA in grad school my professor who I TA-ed for would map the distribution of all the test scores after every exam. He told me if the vast majority of students did poorly on an exam then that was a him problem, not a them problem. Either he wasn't teaching the material effectively, or he hadn't designed the exam well, or something. That's stuck with me.

I will say that students who don't come to class, don't take advantage of resources they're given, and generally can't be bothered to put in effort, and then want to complain about their poor grade are obnoxious (and it seems like there are always a few in every class). But if the overwhelming majority of students are struggling, then it might be time to think about changes in how the course is being taught.

[joy]

I have a BA in chemistry and a PhD in biological chemistry. My grad work was done at an ivy league school and I had to TA Chem 101/102 there. I have …so many thoughts about different aspects of this entire article.

- Organic chemistry is hard for a lot of people. I myself got Cs in it. My brain is better at math, which is Chem 101/102 as well as physical chemistry, rather than visualization in my head. Orgo requires you to “see” very well in three dimensions inside your brain. Ugh. This means that the more science-brained people (those who love their math and concepts!) get very tripped up by this more artistic class.

- Sometimes I wish there was a new way to teach organic chemistry. Every time something about orgo comes up in my job (I’m a working scientist), I freeze and ask someone else because I just don’t “see” it well. If there was an alternative way to teach it, I’d be all over it.

- We can debate whether future doctors need to understand orgo more or less than me, a scientist, needs to understand orgo. Do future doctors take immunology? That is considered one of the more rigorous and difficult specialities within science. I’d argue passing a rigorous immunology course may be more important, but I do see their point.

- All the recorded lectures and zooms and materials and blah blah blah can give students a false sense of “Oh, all the answers are available to me. I’ll read/listen to them before the test and I’ll be set.” Except no… There is no substitute for going to class, engaging in class, keeping up with the work, and asking questions in real time. Concepts build on concepts and if you fall at the beginning, it’s so hard to catch back up even with all the matierals on earth.

- Yes, I think cell phones are eating our brains. I feel addicted to mine and regularly want to just not be so attached to it. I want to adapt myself back to time a time without my phone and all its distractions.

[bears]

Oct 3, 2022 14:56:33 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Oct 3, 2022 14:52:50 GMT -5 bears said:

Teaching these weed-out courses in competitive schools cannot be an easy task, especially with a high proportion of pre-meds, who tend to be more grade focused than other students. At my school, the school stepped in and did a grade adjustment and, in future years, the professor was not as strict.

These kids have been taught that they are smarter, better, more worthy, etc. when in fact most of them are probably pretty mediocre/average. There is a LOT of privilege tied up in this.

Absolutely. In my first college English class, after the first papers were graded and returned, multiple people complained to the professor, saying "I've never gotten a grade lower than an A." He seemed delighted to tell us "it's about damn time you get lower than an A!"

[rubytue]

I read the article and yet, the only thing I can come up with is fuck OChem. Made me change majors, too.

[joy]

Oh, I forgot the future doctor part! I had kids crying in Chem 101 and begging for points back because “how will they get into medical school?!” OMG. College isn’t high school. Work is hard. Med school is hard. Don’t fight me on points from a test; learn the concepts. It was so tiresome and misguided. But, that’s a whole other topic.

[ssmjlm]

After several years of Covid learning loss, the students not only didn’t study, they didn’t seem to know how to study, Dr. Jones said.

I don't think this is just Covid related. This was an on-going issue for the last decade +. Students didn't know how to be good students.

“He hasn’t changed his style or methods in a good many years,” Dr. Canary said. “The students have changed, though, and they were asking for and expecting more support from the faculty when they’re struggling.”

How much should he change? I know nothing about organic chemistry, but has the subject itself changed? It is necessary to bend to the students instead of the students bending to being in a college level science class.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 3, 2022 15:02:12 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

Back when I was a TA in grad school my professor who I TA-ed for would map the distribution of all the test scores after every exam. He told me if the vast majority of students did poorly on an exam then that was a him problem, not a them problem. Either he wasn't teaching the material effectively, or he hadn't designed the exam well, or something. That's stuck with me.

I will say that students who don't come to class, don't take advantage of resources they're given, and generally can't be bothered to put in effort, and then want to complain about their poor grade are obnoxious (and it seems like there are always a few in every class). But if the overwhelming majority of students are struggling, then it might be time to think about changes in how the course is being taught.

In this case it was around 24% of the entire class that signed the petition. There's no data on how many of that 24% were actually failing, or just felt that the class was ambiguously "too hard". Per the article the university offered to review their grades, or allow them to drop the class. The professors spent their own thousands of dollars recording lecture material that was free for the students. So, really, I think the students were the issue here.

[rubytue]

joy, your first bullet. OMG. I wish someone had told me that 25 years ago. Maybe I would be a doctor 😂 Or the chemist I was thinking about. I’m all about the math. And then, my fathers the ABD chemist took one look at my grades and said “how do you fail OChem? It’s just memorization.” Oh I need to back out of this post, triggering memories not about the point…

[pixy0stix]

Oct 3, 2022 15:05:25 GMT -5 bears said:

Oct 3, 2022 14:56:33 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

These kids have been taught that they are smarter, better, more worthy, etc. when in fact most of them are probably pretty mediocre/average. There is a LOT of privilege tied up in this.

Absolutely. In my first college English class, after the first papers were graded and returned, multiple people complained to the professor, saying "I've never gotten a grade lower than an A." He seemed delighted to tell us "it's about damn time you get lower than an A!"

And further, their parents set them up for success by having them take classes that they knew they would excel in during high school. 

[bears]

Oct 3, 2022 15:07:45 GMT -5 joy said:

Oh, I forgot the future doctor part! I had kids crying in Chem 101 and begging for points back because “how will they get into medical school?!” OMG. College isn’t high school. Work is hard. Med school is hard. Don’t fight me on points from a test; learn the concepts. It was so tiresome and misguided. But, that’s a whole other topic.

Seriously they were the worst part of TAing, but not when they failed. The worst part was when they did better than everyone else and fought tooth and nail to move their test score up 2 points.

[DarcyLongfellow]

I could 100% believe that students today haven't learned how to study and memorize.

There's a show on (I think) Netflix called Brain Child that has a whole episode about how when you record something (like, take a picture or video with your phone), your brain automatically "off-loads" that information, so you are less likely to remember it. Even if you *know* you're going to have to memorize it, just the act of taking a picture of the thing you're supposed to memorize makes it harder to actually recall the information.

With lectures being recorded now, plus YouTube videos explaining everything, it makes sense to me that students are having more trouble.

To a certain extent I think rote memorization doesn't matter because what really matters is understanding the material, and in the real world you could always look up something. But in any field there are certain things you just have to know off the top of your head -- like, you don't expect to go to the doctor and have her just type your symptoms into WebMD and see what comes up.

[Patsy Baloney]

I’m really glad to see the confirmation that organic chem is hard! It stymied me in high school and I did my best not to touch it again in college.

My initial thought was, “Of course you all suck at organic chem! It’s really effing hard!”

I never quite know how to react to education pieces like this. My knee jerk reaction is: if you put forth the effort, show up, do the work and do it well, you should be getting a good/average grade. If you don’t…well, that’s on you.

The article mentions students not showing up or doing the work, but that could be 1 student, it could be 100. I wonder how many students needed some kind of accommodation for the class and didn’t know it, didn’t know how to ask for it, etc.

[cap]

Oct 3, 2022 15:12:34 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Oct 3, 2022 15:05:25 GMT -5 bears said:

Absolutely. In my first college English class, after the first papers were graded and returned, multiple people complained to the professor, saying "I've never gotten a grade lower than an A." He seemed delighted to tell us "it's about damn time you get lower than an A!"

And further, their parents set them up for success by having them take classes that they knew they would excel in during high school. 

I work at a major R1 university, but don't teach. I do have undergrads working in the facility I run. It's not a huge group of people, so I do get to know the students pretty well. Anyway, listening to some of the stories they tell, and comparing it to when I was in college 20+ years ago, I can't fathom teaching and not blowing a gasket on a regular basis. Near the end of last semester, one student told me that her professor told the class to not worry about the due date he'd set on a paper, that it was fine if they got it turned in by a week before finals. I mean, really? Are we now teaching college students that deadlines don't matter? I don't think that most of this can be blamed on COVID, and agree that a lot of it is due to people raising a lot of entitled kids. 

[statgirl]

I'm a professor (2 year math), so my reaction to this is colored by my experiences.

1. Students are changing. They are now used to having videos for everything and attendance is seen as a suggestion, rather than mandatory. I have videos for pretty much everything that approximate what we are going to cover (but don't match it exactly--aka, I do different examples in class). I've had these videos for most of my entry level classes for years and I always scan in my notes and post them--same routine that I have been doing for a decade. But...videos and looking at static notes is not a full replacement for interacting with the class. The pandemic exacerbated this, but this has been brewing for years.

2. I had some pushback recently that they want me to Zoom my class and record it each day. I'm not going to--that influences how I can present the material so that the recording is high quality and influences the interactions I have with my class. If I am focused on a high quality Zoom/recording, I have to make different choices in how I interact with my face-to-face students. I did the Zoom/record method for most of the pandemic. It is exhausting to make the in-person and Zoom experiences both high-ish quality at the same time. Since I have videos that are pre-recorded, I'm going to focus on my in-class students and making sure they are getting high quality instruction (and not just high-ish).

3. Many of my students don't know how to study. They are used to looking everything up. I'm okay with looking things up but sometimes you have to internalize knowledge so that you can synthesize what to do at higher level in a timely manner. I teach calculus--if you have to look up how to do a derivative each time, you won't be able to solve a max/min problem quickly and efficiently. That is fine--but that means each problem on your test will be worth WAY MORE as I correct for the number of tasks I can ask you to do in a set period of time. I pulled my tests from 15 years ago and they are roughly 50% longer than they are now as I adjust to what is "appropriate" lengths. (I will admit that I probably was too high in my expectations then, but probably not 50% higher).

4. Homework is seen as optional. I try to balance requiring homework to be turned in (which disadvantages students who have time constraints due to scheduling) with being flexible with homework (which presents to students that it is optional because it isn't graded). I don't want to grade homework--the answers are in the book--and it is inefficient to turn in homework one day to have it returned graded the next class period. I want to grade formative work on completion especially when I provide the answers--but many students see this as a free license to just jot down the answers and call it a day. You won't learn processes/material unless you practice them.

5. My goal is to prepare you for future classes/experiences. If you pass my class without having the prerequisite knowledge for the next course in the sequence that is a failure on my part. Your success in the next course should not be jeopardized by me not developing the skills you need for it. I tend to be an easy grader--but if you have a mid-C or higher, you should be successful in the next class. The student goal is to get the best grade they can with minimal effort (I don't blame them, but it is shortsighted goal for pre-req classes). This is a mismatch that leads to friction.

6. As a consumer-driven society, we have become used to having everything quickly and easily. Friction in experiences is minimized. Gaining knowledge is not frictionless. Sometimes it takes time to learn material and sometimes it is hard--there is friction. We have to persist beyond that friction to experience knowledge growth. I like to remind my students that learning happens especially when we make mistakes. Jo Boaler's mathematical mindset and persistence research (while geared towards K12) is one things I like to share with my students (especially in statistics--both because *studies* and because statistics is an open-entry course where I get lots of students who consider themselves "not math people.")

7. Regarding grades (this is not a new topic): www.gradeinflation.com/ has data from the mid-1980's to mid 2010's. I really want to see the current data as the trends are probably changing (again).

8. I get both sides of this article, but I sympathize with the professor. He should have retired happy with his contributions to the field, but now that has been marred by his last experiences. I hope to retire before I end up in a similar situation. What is "best" is not always "easiest" and maintaining that rigor is a daily balance of priorities. I'm not a perfect instructor--but I am one who cares about my students both as "people" and "product"--aka, I want them to be successful in life and also reflect well on their credential.

(I'm ending now because I have a novel but I have lots more swirling in my head).

[erbear]

Oct 3, 2022 15:04:44 GMT -5 joy said:

I have a BA in chemistry and a PhD in biological chemistry. My grad work was done at an ivy league school and I had to TA Chem 101/102 there. I have …so many thoughts about different aspects of this entire article.

- Organic chemistry is hard for a lot of people. I myself got Cs in it. My brain is better at math, which is Chem 101/102 as well as physical chemistry, rather than visualization in my head. Orgo requires you to “see” very well in three dimensions inside your brain. Ugh. This means that the more science-brained people (those who love their math and concepts!) get very tripped up by this more artistic class.

- Sometimes I wish there was a new way to teach organic chemistry. Every time something about orgo comes up in my job (I’m a working scientist), I freeze and ask someone else because I just don’t “see” it well. If there was an alternative way to teach it, I’d be all over it.

- We can debate whether future doctors need to understand orgo more or less than me, a scientist, needs to understand orgo. Do future doctors take immunology? That is considered one of the more rigorous and difficult specialities within science. I’d argue passing a rigorous immunology course may be more important, but I do see their point.

- All the recorded lectures and zooms and materials and blah blah blah can give students a false sense of “Oh, all the answers are available to me. I’ll read/listen to them before the test and I’ll be set.” Except no… There is no substitute for going to class, engaging in class, keeping up with the work, and asking questions in real time. Concepts build on concepts and if you fall at the beginning, it’s so hard to catch back up even with all the matierals on earth.

- Yes, I think cell phones are eating our brains. I feel addicted to mine and regularly want to just not be so attached to it. I want to adapt myself back to time a time without my phone and all its distractions.

Word for word (except my degree is not in chem, and I sure as shit don't have a PhD!). But I agree with all of your points. Orgo is a tough class. Probably the hardest one I ever took. And that was with me going to all the lectures and sections, doing all the problem sets and going to office hours every week. I worked my ass off in that class, and I'm not sure that's what's happening anymore.

[wanderingback]

Oct 3, 2022 15:04:44 GMT -5 joy said:

I have a BA in chemistry and a PhD in biological chemistry. My grad work was done at an ivy league school and I had to TA Chem 101/102 there. I have …so many thoughts about different aspects of this entire article.

- Organic chemistry is hard for a lot of people. I myself got Cs in it. My brain is better at math, which is Chem 101/102 as well as physical chemistry, rather than visualization in my head. Orgo requires you to “see” very well in three dimensions inside your brain. Ugh. This means that the more science-brained people (those who love their math and concepts!) get very tripped up by this more artistic class.

- Sometimes I wish there was a new way to teach organic chemistry. Every time something about orgo comes up in my job (I’m a working scientist), I freeze and ask someone else because I just don’t “see” it well. If there was an alternative way to teach it, I’d be all over it.

- We can debate whether future doctors need to understand orgo more or less than me, a scientist, needs to understand orgo. Do future doctors take immunology? That is considered one of the more rigorous and difficult specialities within science. I’d argue passing a rigorous immunology course may be more important, but I do see their point.

- All the recorded lectures and zooms and materials and blah blah blah can give students a false sense of “Oh, all the answers are available to me. I’ll read/listen to them before the test and I’ll be set.” Except no… There is no substitute for going to class, engaging in class, keeping up with the work, and asking questions in real time. Concepts build on concepts and if you fall at the beginning, it’s so hard to catch back up even with all the matierals on earth.

- Yes, I think cell phones are eating our brains. I feel addicted to mine and regularly want to just not be so attached to it. I want to adapt myself back to time a time without my phone and all its distractions.

I’m going to read the article when I get home but organic chem was def easier for me then chem 101/102!

I was a bio major when I started college and then I got a C in regular chem (I was a college athlete so did miss class at times for games) and fell in love with psychology so switched my major. At the time had no idea I wanted to go med school.

So after I graduated and decided I wanted to go to med school and went back for a post bacc I was so terrified of organic chem cause of all the horror stories! But I actually enjoyed it, I think because like you said, you have to "see" things. I also had a Black professor which I think was my only 2nd Black professor of all college/post bacc. So anyway, I agree with you, it def takes a certain "brain." I think I ended up getting Bs in both general chem and organic chem 1&2, might have been close to an A in organic chem.

I agree that immunology would likely be a good requirement!

[smock]

I'm torn, both as a former professor and someone mildly traumatized by chem in undergrad. If your midterm averages are 30%, something is wrong with the test (unless there was a curve, which the article didn't mention). Especially if one professor's class has significantly lower grades than other sections.

On the other hand, dropping a professor's contract because students complain about low grades sets a really terrible precedent. Universities are buying into this "student as consumer" model that is ultimately incompatible with higher education, IMO.

[Pibs]

Two thoughts before I read the article:

1) I legit failed OChem at our local community college. All of the homework assignments had the answers in the back of the book, all of the quiz questions came from the homework questions and that kind of stuff sticks in my brain, and I didn't get better than a D on any of my exams. But I walked out of that class with an A and a test score that allowed it to transfer over as a higher level of OChem at state schools. I don't know WTF my instructor was thinking, but I got the grade, and I wasn't going to argue.

2) My grad school was an accelerated program designed in a block system. We'd learn one topic for 2 weeks, and on every other Friday take an individual exam and take the same exam as a group immediately after the individual exam. If our group scored 95% or higher, we would get 5% added to our individual score. If our individual score didn't come out to 90% or higher (with that possible extra 5%) we'd have to retake the exam the following Monday and if you failed that you went to extended learning at the end of the semester. The second-year renal instructor was known to be awful. Like 100 people in each class, and less than 5 people would pass the Friday exam, and on Monday maybe 50-60 people would pass. This happened to three classes in front of us. When it was our turn, he decided to do a "flipped" block. AKA he posted PowerPoint lectures the weekend before the block started and expected us to review them plus any required reading prior to class. Class was group case studies. Literally the ONLY way I passed that block was because I didn't go to class after the first day. I realized the case studies were utterly worthless and since attendance wasn't required, I stayed home and studied in bed with my dog for the rest of the block. I was one of THREE people who passed on Friday, and the others who did were people who blew off class as well. Can y'all imagine my surprise when I met with my new supervisor for a meet and greet last week and he found he graduated from the same school as me, 3 years after, and that fucking idiot instructor was still on staff? And still had less than a 10% pass rate for the first exam and continued to send half of the damn class to extended learning? There is no way you can blame anyone other than the instructor for students failing in this scenario. I'm clearly still pissed and ranty about this and I graduated in 2014 LMAO.

[sadie]

Ochem is hard. I struggled a lot. Unfortunately, it was the class that pushed me away from pre-med.

[sadie]

Oct 3, 2022 17:53:08 GMT -5 sadie said:

Ochem is hard. I struggled a lot. Unfortunately, it was the class that pushed me away from pre-med.

I see this has already been covered.

[Deleted]

Oct 3, 2022 17:15:44 GMT -5 smock said:

I'm torn, both as a former professor and someone mildly traumatized by chem in undergrad. If your midterm averages are 30%, something is wrong with the test (unless there was a curve, which the article didn't mention). Especially if one professor's class has significantly lower grades than other sections.

On the other hand, dropping a professor's contract because students complain about low grades sets a really terrible precedent. Universities are buying into this "student as consumer" model that is ultimately incompatible with higher education, IMO.

Under normal circumstances, I would contend that if the average is 30%, it probably isn’t a valid assessment to begin with, and shouldn’t just be curved up. Either the material wasn’t covered well, or the test was too hard.

But if you factor in students who don’t attend class and don’t do homework (even if it’s optional), then maybe it’s a *somewhat* valid assessment.

I do wonder though…do students find recordings and notes helpful? I don’t think I would have time to re-watch lectures, and other people’s notes generally don’t make any sense to me. I rely on good teaching that is engaging and relevant, and tests that actually test based on the material taught. So if this professor was doing all this extra stuff then complained that students didn’t take advantage of it, I wonder if he asked them before doing it, or if they might have requested something different from him.

[wildrice]

The article seems to be conflating two separate things - his class is hard, and his teaching style is outdated for the current student population. It sounds like a lot of the complaints were about his way of interacting with students - being more punitive than supportive, not being as accessible to them as they thought they needed, etc. I don't think the answer to that is to make the course easier, but I don't think the teaching methods he was taught almost 60 years ago are necessarily going to work for kids of today. I mean the guy is 84, I can't fault him for being over their bullshit, lol. But also maybe then it's time to retire. Maybe the students would have done better with a more accessible professor, and maybe not. But they probably do expect more hand holding than it sounds like he was giving.

[formerlyak]

The decade ago comment regarding loss of focus tracks with other studies that look at when mental health in teens and young adults declined. It lines up with smart phones being more widely available. The students are used to having the info they need in their pocket and never learned to study the way we did.

@@@
I noticed this with my teen when he transitioned from middle to high school. He had to learn a whole new way to study, because the honors and AP teachers expect them to learn study and research skills they will need in college. Middle school and the college prep course in high school by us seem to have a lot of open note test, pretty easy multiple choice tests, group test and project, etc. and lots of hand holding. I seriously worry how the kids who have taken no honors or AP classes - even just one in whatever subject they are best at - will cope when no one is holding their hand in college. Our high school encourages every student who wants to go to college to try an honors or AP class and there are a lot to choose from.

[ellipses84]

[mention]rubytue [/mention]
For my major I had to take a couple courses in the science/math realm. I’d already taken college level calculus because I wanted to (which did take the first quarter to click and was the first time math was a challenge for me). IDK if it was because our other course work was so difficult and we were always doing homework/ barely sleeping or what, but after the first test the professor called up a few names and half of us were in my major / year. We all had Ds or Fs on the first exam. I struggled through it and got my grade up to a C. Meanwhile my roommate was acing the same course with a different professor. The difference… her professor let his students use a little notecard to write formulas on during exams and mine did not. The next quarter I signed up for her instructor and got an easy A. I knew how to do the math, I but I could not memorize the all formulas correctly, even though I generally have a good memory.

[ellipses84]

I can see both sides of it from the article. I don’t buy into the generational tropes, but there’s definitely some consideration related to learning styles and covid. I know people who work in higher ed who complain about their challenges with the student population being prepared for the coursework and I know students who had major struggles with virtual learning. A lot of programs remained heavily virtual and that doesn’t work for some students learning styles, but there’s still a large amount of students who don’t want to go to class in person.

I don’t think the Professor should have been fired and I don’t think that’s what the petition signers wanted (although that makes me think there’s been issues for years). I wonder if they tried to ask him to retire.