AZ city cuts off a neighborhood’s water supply amid drought

[pixy0stix]

READ THE WHOLE ARTICLE FOR THE INS AND OUTS

Gift link - wapo.st/3QMLNp5

[pixy0stix]

I'm struggling to find sympathy for a neighborhood who built outside of regulations without securing water rights in a literal desert. They hoped to force the issue with their presence, but... there's just not resources for them.

[suburbanzookeeper]

Jan 16, 2023 11:06:15 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm struggling to find sympathy for a neighborhood who built outside of regulations without securing water rights in a literal desert. They hoped to force the issue with their presence, but... there's just not resources for them.

This is where I'm at. Horse ranches, large scale homes, and are suddenly surprised that their neighbors are going to prioritize themselves over their lack of regulation? 

[konapoppy]

I don’t see how they’re not like every unincorporated area, but it’s obviously not my area of expertise.

They shouldn’t have built it without figuring all of this stuff out (including fire protection).

Sometimes you go places and think “how does this even exist right here” and the answer sometimes is, it shouldn’t 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Deleted]

Those two retirees used 200 gallons a day?!?! My family of 3 uses half that.

I remember when I was in college there was a huge drought and the water company raised rates, so my roommates and I challenged ourselves to save water. We cut our consumption in half….and our bill still went up.

I have sympathy for these people who are now struggling to find water, but we are SO used to being able to turn a tap and getting an unlimited supply of clean potable water on demand, that it literally didn’t occur to people when they developed this area and bought houses that this water was not in an unlimited supply?!?

[wawa]

I have to imagine part of the appeal of buying a home here vs. in scottsdale (or another incorporated area with formal water rights) is that less taxes? Does scottsdale have municipal property tax? If so...WELP. I have a tiny bit more sympathy for the horse farms, since it's not like you can generally shove those into a town, but...I mean, yeah, it's a problem. And a tiny bit more sympathy for those in smaller modest homes who just wanted to have a house on a lot and this is where they could afford to build that. But...having sympathy for the fact that they were lied to and now have to deal with that fact doesn't make more water for them appear. Lots of places have ceased to be places because the water dried up. It's a pretty time honored pattern of human habitation that we can't stay when the water is gone, and it's just a lot of engineering and fuckery that have let us ignore that in this area for as long as we have.

I remember seeing the phoenix area from the air for the first time ever in college (I was flying in to present a paper at a conference) and thinking, "wait. what? how the hell does that work? where's the water coming from???" when the green yards and GOLF COURSES suddenly appeared in the desert. Turns out...it doesn't work. Like, not forever. DUH. I am pleased to see far far fewer green lawns now in google earth than there were then, but that just makes the golf courses look even more absurd.

I have some sympathy for people who were essentially lied to and told (by whoever) that this was a long term option despite having no legal rights to water. But like...it hasn't been a long term option for a LONG TIME. It's NOT actually viable to live in a 5000 SF home in the desert along with several hundred other people all ALSO living in their own several thousand square foot homes. (it's not sustainable to live anywhere like that....but I digress) I wish there was an easy answer for these people, for all of us because I can have all the water I want in my backyard and that ain't gonna fix the huge ramifications this issue, but actually there isn't and the water use in the west is a house of cards that IS tumbling down.

[penguingrrl]

I read about this in the NYT this morning and thought of you. I have no sympathy for these folks. It’s right in the paperwork they get upon purchase that they aren’t guaranteed water, which should be a huge red flag on any real estate purchase.

[rubytue]

Jan 16, 2023 12:27:11 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Those two retirees used 200 gallons a day?!?! My family of 3 uses half that.

My MIL… we were doing laundry at her house and she came in to show me how to use the washer (ok lady….). Anyway, she punched the extra rinse button twice and talked about how it gets more soap out because the water is so soft (beach area) and added “and we aren’t paying for it.”  Now, it’s Florida, not the SW, I’ll grant her that, but the attitude 😔

[cattledogkisses]

Jan 16, 2023 12:29:23 GMT -5 wawa said:

I have to imagine part of the appeal of buying a home here vs. in scottsdale (or another incorporated area with formal water rights) is that less taxes? Does scottsdale have municipal property tax? If so...WELP. I have a tiny bit more sympathy for the horse farms, since it's not like you can generally shove those into a town, but...I mean, yeah, it's a problem. And a tiny bit more sympathy for those in smaller modest homes who just wanted to have a house on a lot and this is where they could afford to build that. But...having sympathy for the fact that they were lied to and now have to deal with that fact doesn't make more water for them appear. Lots of places have ceased to be places because the water dried up. It's a pretty time honored pattern of human habitation that we can't stay when the water is gone, and it's just a lot of engineering and fuckery that have let us ignore that in this area for as long as we have.

I remember seeing the phoenix area from the air for the first time ever in college (I was flying in to present a paper at a conference) and thinking, "wait. what? how the hell does that work? where's the water coming from???" when the green yards and GOLF COURSES suddenly appeared in the desert. Turns out...it doesn't work. Like, not forever. DUH. I am pleased to see far far fewer green lawns now in google earth than there were then, but that just makes the golf courses look even more absurd.

I have some sympathy for people who were essentially lied to and told (by whoever) that this was a long term option despite having no legal rights to water. But like...it hasn't been a long term option for a LONG TIME. It's NOT actually viable to live in a 5000 SF home in the desert along with several hundred other people all ALSO living in their own several thousand square foot homes. (it's not sustainable to live anywhere like that....but I digress) I wish there was an easy answer for these people, for all of us because I can have all the water I want in my backyard and that ain't gonna fix the huge ramifications this issue, but actually there isn't and the water use in the west is a house of cards that IS tumbling down.

Phoenix is one of the fastest growing metro areas in the US, and I keep thinking, what is the long term plan exactly?  The climate there cannot support the demands of a large and rapidly growing urban area.

[mysteriouswife]

Jan 16, 2023 13:44:57 GMT -5 rubytue said:

Jan 16, 2023 12:27:11 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Those two retirees used 200 gallons a day?!?! My family of 3 uses half that.

My MIL… we were doing laundry at her house and she came in to show me how to use the washer (ok lady….). Anyway, she punched the extra rinse button twice and talked about how it gets more soap out because the water is so soft (beach area) and added “and we aren’t paying for it.”  Now, it’s Florida, not the SW, I’ll grant her that, but the attitude 😔

Your MIL sounds like my cousin. She and her H are retired. They recycle and think that’s enough. What the don’t see is now a 7000 sq ft house for two people is too much. She washes their sheets daily and does laundry a lot. She never waits for a full load. She also only drinks plastic bottles of water. But hey they recycle!

[bee20]

I would have liked to have heard more about the water commission, is that really going to solve the issue? It sounds like many in these communities had been using water tanks before this and the only change was Scottsdale stopped letting them fill the tankers from their supply.

I enjoyed the commentary on self reliance and also quoting the resident who was asking who was going to help him like we help people in other countries with water.

Maybe they can check this technology out: www.bbc.com/news/technology-30709273

[pixy0stix]

Jan 16, 2023 14:00:47 GMT -5 bee20 said:

I enjoyed the commentary on self reliance and also quoting the resident who was asking who was going to help him like we help people in other countries with water.

Yeah, there's quite a big disconnect on what they want. They want self-reliance and freedom from the government, while simultaneously wanting the government to bail them out. They want water to their community, but don't want the governing board that comes along with the water.

About a billion years ago this board had a debate about an article where a family had their house burn down because they didn't pay the $60some a year needed to fund fire services to their area. The fire trucks showed up, but only to keep their neighbors who had paid for the service from burning down.  This entire neighborhood in AZ is like those people with that one house. They want all the services, but don't want to follow the rules to get them.

[konapoppy]

I appreciated this excerpt from the NYT article:

To prevent unsustainable development in a desert state, Arizona passed a law in 1980 requiring subdivisions with six or more lots to show proof that they have a 100-year water supply.

But developers in Rio Verde Foothills have been sidestepping the rule by carving larger parcels into sections with four or five houses each, creating the impression of a miniature suburbia, but one that did not need to legally prove it had water.

[pumpkincat]

Jan 16, 2023 14:45:58 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jan 16, 2023 14:00:47 GMT -5 bee20 said:

I enjoyed the commentary on self reliance and also quoting the resident who was asking who was going to help him like we help people in other countries with water.

Yeah, there's quite a big disconnect on what they want. They want self-reliance and freedom from the government, while simultaneously wanting the government to bail them out. They want water to their community, but don't want the governing board that comes along with the water.

About a billion years ago this board had a debate about an article where a family had their house burn down because they didn't pay the $60some a year needed to fund fire services to their area. The fire trucks showed up, but only to keep their neighbors who had paid for the service from burning down.  This entire neighborhood in AZ is like those people with that one house. They want all the services, but don't want to follow the rules to get them.

As an Arizona resident (not native), I can say that this statement sums up much of the attitude around here on a lot of issues.

[jlt19]

“You have this belief that there’s going to be help”.

This right here is the crux of the problem.

[nothingcontroversial]

Jan 16, 2023 11:04:47 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

READ THE WHOLE ARTICLE FOR THE INS AND OUTS

Gift link - wapo.st/3QMLNp5

Thanks for gifting the article.

I got a kick out of the retired physician who admitted that his water-saving measures included peeing outside. 

[Deleted]

Jan 16, 2023 15:13:08 GMT -5 nothingcontroversial said:

Jan 16, 2023 11:04:47 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

READ THE WHOLE ARTICLE FOR THE INS AND OUTS

Gift link - wapo.st/3QMLNp5

Thanks for gifting the article.

I got a kick out of the retired physician who admitted that his water-saving measures included peeing outside. 

My aunt and uncle used to live more or less “off the grid” in NV, and they trucked their water in (in addition to harvesting rainwater, when there was any). They followed a very strict “if it’s yellow let it mellow” policy. I’m surprised Mr. and Mrs. 200 gallons per day had never thought of that. (okay, yes, they got it down to 30 gallons a day….I just can’t understand how two people can use 200 gallons per day).

[pixy0stix]

I just read the sister NYT article. This community has been in discussions since 2015 that their water was going to be cut off. As for all the talk of "but there's green this way, and a large fountain that way..." guess what? Those will be gone too.

[pixy0stix]

Jan 16, 2023 15:32:21 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Jan 16, 2023 15:13:08 GMT -5 nothingcontroversial said:

Thanks for gifting the article.

I got a kick out of the retired physician who admitted that his water-saving measures included peeing outside. 

My aunt and uncle used to live more or less “off the grid” in NV, and they trucked their water in (in addition to harvesting rainwater, when there was any). They followed a very strict “if it’s yellow let it mellow” policy. I’m surprised Mr. and Mrs. 200 gallons per day had never thought of that. (okay, yes, they got it down to 30 gallons a day….I just can’t understand how two people can use 200 gallons per day).

I'm wondering if they had a pool or a lawn or something that wasn't mentioned in the article. One of the houses in the NYT article had a pool, which wtf.

[bee20]

It is reminding me a lot of the dust bowl. Climate change occurred due to massive changes in farming of the land. To this day the areas worst-hit ecologically have recovered to only 25% of their economic yield, demonstrating how over tilled the land was at the peak. The timing is about right for the 30's to be the crux.

[Velar Fricative]

It’s helpful for me when people call themselves “freedom-loving” because then I know they’re hypocritical assholes.

[Deleted]

Jan 16, 2023 17:43:23 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

It’s helpful for me when people call themselves “freedom-loving” because then I know they’re hypocritical assholes.

I lived in a very deep red area that was hit moderately with Hurricane Sally in 2020. Those MFers who are all “bootstraps” and “mah freedoms” were losing their SHIT about “where’s FEMA?” and “where’s the government to help us?” when A) their president failed to make us a disaster area for several days, delaying FEMA’s response and B) they had voted for decades for chucklefucks who decimated FEMA’s funding in order to lower taxes for rich corporations as part of some “trickle down” bullshit economic theory. And of course they failed to see the contradiction in their own actions.

[icedcoffee]

Play stupid games; win stupid prizes. Why would you want to live in the desert? I feel bad only if any of these residents didn’t know what they were getting into, but it sounds like most of them did and then there’s also the responsibility of not being dumb.

Anyone who still buys there is a dumbass. Godspeed to anyone trying to resell these.

[icedcoffee]

Some of the houses in that subdivision are on the market for crazy high prices. Like this one. You are seriously insane to consider a house with no water in a desert. LOL

www.zillow.com/homedetails/31521-N-160th-St-Scottsdale-AZ-85262/71621441_zpid/?utm_campaign=iosappmessage&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=txtshare

[Deleted]

Jan 16, 2023 19:46:08 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Some of the houses in that subdivision are on the market for crazy high prices. Like this one. You are seriously insane to consider a house with no water in a desert. LOL

www.zillow.com/homedetails/31521-N-160th-St-Scottsdale-AZ-85262/71621441_zpid/?utm_campaign=iosappmessage&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=txtshare

It mentions “shared well” twice in that listing. I wonder if having a well there makes the home worth more? Or if the well even has water (the WaPo article mentions many wells running dry as water tables drop)?

[icedcoffee]

Jan 16, 2023 19:53:12 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Jan 16, 2023 19:46:08 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Some of the houses in that subdivision are on the market for crazy high prices. Like this one. You are seriously insane to consider a house with no water in a desert. LOL

www.zillow.com/homedetails/31521-N-160th-St-Scottsdale-AZ-85262/71621441_zpid/?utm_campaign=iosappmessage&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=txtshare

It mentions “shared well” twice in that listing. I wonder if having a well there makes the home worth more? Or if the well even has water (the WaPo article mentions many wells running dry as water tables drop)?

I’m sure it’s low or dry. Hopefully whoever buys it has the well inspected!

[penguingrrl]

Jan 16, 2023 19:46:08 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Some of the houses in that subdivision are on the market for crazy high prices. Like this one. You are seriously insane to consider a house with no water in a desert. LOL

www.zillow.com/homedetails/31521-N-160th-St-Scottsdale-AZ-85262/71621441_zpid/?utm_campaign=iosappmessage&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=txtshare

I’m LOLing at the huge tub in the primary suite. Really well considered for the location.

[Velar Fricative]

Jan 16, 2023 19:46:08 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Some of the houses in that subdivision are on the market for crazy high prices. Like this one. You are seriously insane to consider a house with no water in a desert. LOL

www.zillow.com/homedetails/31521-N-160th-St-Scottsdale-AZ-85262/71621441_zpid/?utm_campaign=iosappmessage&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=txtshare

WTF I did not expect to see a price like that there.

[pixy0stix]

Now transfer this conversation to a house along the coast that the feds have spent millions to keep standing. Do you feel the same?

[livinitup]

Jan 16, 2023 21:06:34 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Jan 16, 2023 19:46:08 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Some of the houses in that subdivision are on the market for crazy high prices. Like this one. You are seriously insane to consider a house with no water in a desert. LOL

www.zillow.com/homedetails/31521-N-160th-St-Scottsdale-AZ-85262/71621441_zpid/?utm_campaign=iosappmessage&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=txtshare

WTF I did not expect to see a price like that there.

I was expecting a better kitchen with that space and that price. Maybe I missed some photos? At least something interesting outside, too.