AZ city cuts off a neighborhood’s water supply amid drought

[pixy0stix]

Jan 17, 2023 16:19:42 GMT -5 dutchgirl678 said:

I read the whole article. I really don't understand why someone would willingly move to AZ right now with the water shortages that are already there and the hot weather. We bought a new SFH in OR several years ago and one couple in our neighborhood lived there for a few years and last year they sold and bought a new home in AZ in one of those 55+ communities way outside Phoenix. The complex has three pools, a golf course, and they just had their own backyard pool installed as well. That whole area is growing like crazy and I'm sure it will run into problems soon as well.

Every time I post an article about Lake Mead, and how in 6ish months power to 40M people might be cut off, there's always a few people on the board that are surprised. I don't think people care/pay attention to what's happening. 

[wildrice]

I wonder if all of the residents truly knew about this issue before they bought their homes. Sure, it was probably disclosed somewhere in the lengthy paperwork they were given, but it's not unusual for people not to read those thoroughly. I have never been in a comparable situation, but it never would have crossed my mind that there would be a community in the US that I could buy property within that wouldn't be able to provide me with drinking water. Especially if it was the first time living in the desert for folks, I can see some people just assuming that there wouldn't be houses there if they weren't habitable? So sure, they could have done things to protect themselves, but they may not have known what to look for. I didn't read my paperwork to see if I was guaranteed water - that was just one of my expectations buying a home in a neighborhood.

I think personal responsibility is important, but I also think that the government has responsibility to protect citizens from their own lack of education or critical thinking around things. The people who allowed that development to be built should never have approved it and definitely shouldn't have approved things like golf courses and farms. Those are the people whose job it is to know what problems can arise for residents and who should have access to the expertise to assess risk. Because of greed, they didn't do what they should have.

[noodleoo]

Jan 17, 2023 16:25:38 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jan 17, 2023 16:19:42 GMT -5 dutchgirl678 said:

I read the whole article. I really don't understand why someone would willingly move to AZ right now with the water shortages that are already there and the hot weather. We bought a new SFH in OR several years ago and one couple in our neighborhood lived there for a few years and last year they sold and bought a new home in AZ in one of those 55+ communities way outside Phoenix. The complex has three pools, a golf course, and they just had their own backyard pool installed as well. That whole area is growing like crazy and I'm sure it will run into problems soon as well.

Every time I post an article about Lake Mead, and how in 6ish months power to 40M people might be cut off, there's always a few people on the board that are surprised. I don't think people care/pay attention to what's happening. 

Totally off topic, but is all the rain out west going to help with the Lake Mead situation at all? I was one who was shocked to read that article (I live in NE so that’s my excuse).

[cattledogkisses]

Am I the only one who thinks that 100 years isn't actually a very long time when it comes to water supply?

I mean, my house is ~200 years old.

[pixy0stix]

Jan 17, 2023 16:30:25 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

Jan 17, 2023 16:25:38 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Every time I post an article about Lake Mead, and how in 6ish months power to 40M people might be cut off, there's always a few people on the board that are surprised. I don't think people care/pay attention to what's happening. 

Totally off topic, but is all the rain out west going to help with the Lake Mead situation at all? I was one who was shocked to read that article (I live in NE so that’s my excuse).

No. CO's snowpack will do more to help alleviate conditions - www.wjhl.com/news/national/why-hasnt-recent-rain-helped-lake-mead-much/

[pixy0stix]

Jan 17, 2023 16:29:56 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I wonder if all of the residents truly knew about this issue before they bought their homes. Sure, it was probably disclosed somewhere in the lengthy paperwork they were given, but it's not unusual for people not to read those thoroughly. I have never been in a comparable situation, but it never would have crossed my mind that there would be a community in the US that I could buy property within that wouldn't be able to provide me with drinking water. Especially if it was the first time living in the desert for folks, I can see some people just assuming that there wouldn't be houses there if they weren't habitable? So sure, they could have done things to protect themselves, but they may not have known what to look for. I didn't read my paperwork to see if I was guaranteed water - that was just one of my expectations buying a home in a neighborhood.

I think personal responsibility is important, but I also think that the government has responsibility to protect citizens from their own lack of education or critical thinking around things. The people who allowed that development to be built should never have approved it and definitely shouldn't have approved things like golf courses and farms. Those are the people whose job it is to know what problems can arise for residents and who should have access to the expertise to assess risk. Because of greed, they didn't do what they should have.

From what I gather, they didn't need approval. As long as they were exploiting the loophole the developers could do what they wanted. This is what the people in that area wanted - no government oversight - and so they voted in the people that would give them what they want. The people here are ABSOLUTELY the ones that all the blame should be laid at their feet. The government is only as good as the people you elect.

ETA: The people also knew when they bought their houses where the water was coming from if they bought a house with a tank. The only people I feel slightly sorry for are the ones on a well who probably didn't predict that the water table would drop. The people here pretty much dug their own graves.

[kadams767]

Jan 17, 2023 16:25:38 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jan 17, 2023 16:19:42 GMT -5 dutchgirl678 said:

I read the whole article. I really don't understand why someone would willingly move to AZ right now with the water shortages that are already there and the hot weather. We bought a new SFH in OR several years ago and one couple in our neighborhood lived there for a few years and last year they sold and bought a new home in AZ in one of those 55+ communities way outside Phoenix. The complex has three pools, a golf course, and they just had their own backyard pool installed as well. That whole area is growing like crazy and I'm sure it will run into problems soon as well.

Every time I post an article about Lake Mead, and how in 6ish months power to 40M people might be cut off, there's always a few people on the board that are surprised. I don't think people care/pay attention to what's happening. 

I absolutely don't think people are blameless for making choices like this, especially those closer to age 55 than the older end of the senior living spectrum, but building senior communities and targeting older individuals in places like this is kind of especially shitty though.  My mom is 70, and not that she is contemplating moving someplace like that, but she would never know/understand about this.  In her head, she's seeing a nice community with warm weather, a pool (or multiple pools) and other amenities where she can spend her older years.  For someone who has spent her entire life never having to consider a viable water source (for which you could sub in any number of these untenable utility structures), it seems almost predatory to allow them to move in to these places (or worse, buy).  It would literally never cross her mind that there might be a point where she could not have potable water/electricity/etc.  Now, are there tons of non-victims here?  Of course.  But fuck the developers who may be essentially preying on the uninformed.  

[kadams767]

Jan 17, 2023 16:37:53 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jan 17, 2023 16:29:56 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I wonder if all of the residents truly knew about this issue before they bought their homes. Sure, it was probably disclosed somewhere in the lengthy paperwork they were given, but it's not unusual for people not to read those thoroughly. I have never been in a comparable situation, but it never would have crossed my mind that there would be a community in the US that I could buy property within that wouldn't be able to provide me with drinking water. Especially if it was the first time living in the desert for folks, I can see some people just assuming that there wouldn't be houses there if they weren't habitable? So sure, they could have done things to protect themselves, but they may not have known what to look for. I didn't read my paperwork to see if I was guaranteed water - that was just one of my expectations buying a home in a neighborhood.

I think personal responsibility is important, but I also think that the government has responsibility to protect citizens from their own lack of education or critical thinking around things. The people who allowed that development to be built should never have approved it and definitely shouldn't have approved things like golf courses and farms. Those are the people whose job it is to know what problems can arise for residents and who should have access to the expertise to assess risk. Because of greed, they didn't do what they should have.

From what I gather, they didn't need approval. As long as they were exploiting the loophole the developers could do what they wanted. This is what the people in that area wanted - no government oversight - and so they voted in the people that would give them what they want. The people here are ABSOLUTELY the ones that all the blame should be laid at their feet. The government is only as good as the people you elect.

I have to say, I don't quite understand this either.  But it kind of goes to my other post here, in that it's just insane that literally every area of the country does things differently.  I work in a development-adjacent field and have worked on projects in unincorporated counties before (though not AZ).  They still have had building and zoning code requirements and municipal approvals.  But the article here makes it sounds like the fact that this is "unincorporated" means there is basically no oversight, like you said.  That's so effed up. 

[pixy0stix]

Jan 17, 2023 16:41:25 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

Jan 17, 2023 16:37:53 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

From what I gather, they didn't need approval. As long as they were exploiting the loophole the developers could do what they wanted. This is what the people in that area wanted - no government oversight - and so they voted in the people that would give them what they want. The people here are ABSOLUTELY the ones that all the blame should be laid at their feet. The government is only as good as the people you elect.

I have to say, I don't quite understand this either.  But it kind of goes to my other post here, in that it's just insane that literally every area of the country does things differently.  I work in a development-adjacent field and have worked on projects in unincorporated counties before (though not AZ).  They still have had building and zoning code requirements and municipal approvals.  But the article here makes it sounds like the fact that this is "unincorporated" means there is basically no oversight, like you said.  That's so effed up. 

Yup, the people haven't felt the need to set up a government in the unincorporated areas, and so none exists. Governments need people to set up a structure, pay taxes, hire other people, develop laws to follow other laws... it's a whole house of cards.

[wildrice]

Jan 17, 2023 16:37:53 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jan 17, 2023 16:29:56 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I wonder if all of the residents truly knew about this issue before they bought their homes. Sure, it was probably disclosed somewhere in the lengthy paperwork they were given, but it's not unusual for people not to read those thoroughly. I have never been in a comparable situation, but it never would have crossed my mind that there would be a community in the US that I could buy property within that wouldn't be able to provide me with drinking water. Especially if it was the first time living in the desert for folks, I can see some people just assuming that there wouldn't be houses there if they weren't habitable? So sure, they could have done things to protect themselves, but they may not have known what to look for. I didn't read my paperwork to see if I was guaranteed water - that was just one of my expectations buying a home in a neighborhood.

I think personal responsibility is important, but I also think that the government has responsibility to protect citizens from their own lack of education or critical thinking around things. The people who allowed that development to be built should never have approved it and definitely shouldn't have approved things like golf courses and farms. Those are the people whose job it is to know what problems can arise for residents and who should have access to the expertise to assess risk. Because of greed, they didn't do what they should have.

From what I gather, they didn't need approval. As long as they were exploiting the loophole the developers could do what they wanted. This is what the people in that area wanted - no government oversight - and so they voted in the people that would give them what they want. The people here are ABSOLUTELY the ones that all the blame should be laid at their feet. The government is only as good as the people you elect.

ETA: The people also knew when they bought their houses where the water was coming from if they bought a house with a tank. The only people I feel slightly sorry for are the ones on a well who probably didn't predict that the water table would drop. The people here pretty much dug their own graves.

While this is true, surely it was not a unanimous vote. I think we all have a lot of experience living in places where we absolutely did NOT vote for or in any way support what the majority vote ended up producing. There are a lot of people involved who absolutely are reaping what they've sown, but I imagine there are still others who just ended up making an uninformed choice to buy in the wrong community. Not blameless for that, but I do feel kind of bad for them.

[pixy0stix]

Also, I really think this should drive home that the government isn't going to be able to save people. Last year the government spent $9 billion on natural disasters caused by climate change, and that's only going to get worse. The Pentagon 20ish years ago put out a report that climate change would most likely be the cause of the next world war (due to resources), and could be an agent to destabilizing our own government.

ETA: Ooooh, lies. I fact checked myself, it was closer to $18 billion - www.ncei.noaa.gov/access/billions/

[pixy0stix]

Jan 17, 2023 16:50:07 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Jan 17, 2023 16:37:53 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

From what I gather, they didn't need approval. As long as they were exploiting the loophole the developers could do what they wanted. This is what the people in that area wanted - no government oversight - and so they voted in the people that would give them what they want. The people here are ABSOLUTELY the ones that all the blame should be laid at their feet. The government is only as good as the people you elect.

ETA: The people also knew when they bought their houses where the water was coming from if they bought a house with a tank. The only people I feel slightly sorry for are the ones on a well who probably didn't predict that the water table would drop. The people here pretty much dug their own graves.

While this is true, surely it was not a unanimous vote. I think we all have a lot of experience living in places where we absolutely did NOT vote for or in any way support what the majority vote ended up producing. There are a lot of people involved who absolutely are reaping what they've sown, but I imagine there are still others who just ended up making an uninformed choice to buy in the wrong community. Not blameless for that, but I do feel kind of bad for them.

Fairly certain we all do, since we're not heartless. We can still feel bad for people, and still say, "WTF were you thinking when all the warning signs were there?"

[wildrice]

Jan 17, 2023 16:56:07 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jan 17, 2023 16:50:07 GMT -5 wildrice said:

While this is true, surely it was not a unanimous vote. I think we all have a lot of experience living in places where we absolutely did NOT vote for or in any way support what the majority vote ended up producing. There are a lot of people involved who absolutely are reaping what they've sown, but I imagine there are still others who just ended up making an uninformed choice to buy in the wrong community. Not blameless for that, but I do feel kind of bad for them.

Fairly certain we all do, since we're not heartless. We can still feel bad for people, and still say, "WTF were you thinking when all the warning signs were there?"

I would hope so! Looking back on this thread though there were a lot of posts indicating no sympathy for these people, though. 

[pixy0stix]

Jan 17, 2023 17:00:49 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Jan 17, 2023 16:56:07 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Fairly certain we all do, since we're not heartless. We can still feel bad for people, and still say, "WTF were you thinking when all the warning signs were there?"

I would hope so! Looking back on this thread though there were a lot of posts indicating no sympathy for these people, though. 

Did you actually read the article, because the people are beyond NYT level of unsympathetic. LOL!

[wildrice]

Jan 17, 2023 17:02:59 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jan 17, 2023 17:00:49 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I would hope so! Looking back on this thread though there were a lot of posts indicating no sympathy for these people, though. 

Did you actually read the article, because the people are beyond NYT level of unsympathetic. LOL!

I did! And yes I agree the specific people highlighted were not the greatest examples. I swear the NYT goes out of its way to find the worst people to interview.

[pixy0stix]

Jan 17, 2023 17:24:52 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Jan 17, 2023 17:02:59 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Did you actually read the article, because the people are beyond NYT level of unsympathetic. LOL!

I did! And yes I agree the specific people highlighted were not the greatest examples. I swear the NYT goes out of its way to find the worst people to interview.

But it was WaPo, so I'm choosing to believe these people are representative of the whole community.

[aurora]

Jan 17, 2023 20:29:11 GMT -5 ewall said:

Jan 17, 2023 17:26:04 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

But it was WaPo, so I'm choosing to believe these people are representative of the whole community.

There was a New Yorker article back in June that has all the drama.
www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-southwest/the-water-wars-come-to-the-suburbs

Underlining the hypocrisy of the anti-government folks who are now furious that the government isn't rushing in to save them. The (unsuccessful) water district organization would have had some typical government powers!

[mrspez07]

As I mentioned earlier, just because it is in unincorporated areas of a county doesn’t mean there are no regulations, it just means there are less than within City boundaries and usually less taxes. This is typical all over the country, especially the west, not everything is within a city or town boundaries. This area is within Maricopa County, which covers a huge land area, including all of Phoenix and most of its suburbs. Each of those Cities have separate regulations that supersede County regulations, and the county regulations apply when your property is outside of City boundaries. There are zoning and land use requirements and submittal for platting, etc in Maricopa County. It’s just that the developer got through the state loophole by platting less than 5 lots at a time so they didn’t have to show the 100 year water supply.
Another similar metro area is Las Vegas. Most of the metro area there is technically under the jurisdiction of Clark County, as there are many “unincorporated” communities and a small area that is the City of Las Vegas proper, even if the mailing address is Las Vegas (or in the case of this AZ neighborhood, Scottsdale).

[wawa]

Jan 18, 2023 13:18:51 GMT -5 mrspez07 said:

As I mentioned earlier, just because it is in unincorporated areas of a county doesn’t mean there are no regulations, it just means there are less than within City boundaries and usually less taxes. This is typical all over the country, especially the west, not everything is within a city or town boundaries. This area is within Maricopa County, which covers a huge land area, including all of Phoenix and most of its suburbs. Each of those Cities have separate regulations that supersede County regulations, and the county regulations apply when your property is outside of City boundaries. There are zoning and land use requirements and submittal for platting, etc in Maricopa County. It’s just that the developer got through the state loophole by platting less than 5 lots at a time so they didn’t have to show the 100 year water supply.
Another similar metro area is Las Vegas. Most of the metro area there is technically under the jurisdiction of Clark County, as there are many “unincorporated” communities and a small area that is the City of Las Vegas proper, even if the mailing address is Las Vegas (or in the case of this AZ neighborhood, Scottsdale).

Also worth noting that it's very normal for a zoning code/subdivison regulation to have triggers for certain requirements that don't apply to applications with a small number of lots.  The 6 lot ceiling here is pretty normal.  What's NOT normal (in my experience) is that there's apparently not a provision to catch piecemeal submissions like this.  This is a closeable loophole.

[sparkythelawyer]

So, living in Chicago Metro, in a somewhat red area, I get lots of comments around me about how "they can't wait" to leave Illinois and "OMG the Taxes" and blah blah blah.

Meanwhile, when Texas froze and people died, because the state got cheap and did not properly protect its power grid from catastrophy, Illinois also got a storm. Except for Illinois - we kept power, water, heat, gas, got the roads plowed, trash picked up and the schools took one snow day.

I look at these guys in AZ, who want to be all, "But we're independent! We're self sufficient! Government agencies are bad!" and blah blah blah, and it just rings the same as the people whining to leave my state - YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. You don't want to join the water board? Buh bye, hope you figure out a water solution. You don't want to be on the main power grid, TX? Good luck in a storm. If you don't want to be a part of government institutions, you don't get to be that shocked when the government....holds you to their assertion.

I feel sorry for individual homeowners caught up in this mess because people would rather fight than solve the problem. But this is a problem of their own making.

[VillainV]

Two more thoughts:

1. Scottsdale chose to stop allowing water distribution to this area, but is still allowing people in Scottsdale city limits to water golf courses and fill pools. I understand why they would decide to cut off an unsupported area, but I can see why the residents are upset that Scottsdale has prioritized golf courses and pools over some people’s lives and livelihood.

2. Possibly anecdotal, but several of the people interviewed in the various articles have said they now they do laundry at family’s houses in Scottsdale or joined a gym in Scottsdale to shower….so I wonder how much water Scottsdale is actually saving by cutting off this distribution.

[livinitup]

Jan 17, 2023 16:29:56 GMT -5 wildrice said:

.

I think personal responsibility is important, but I also think that the government has responsibility to protect citizens from their own lack of education or critical thinking around things. The people who allowed that development to be built should never have approved it and definitely shouldn't have approved things like golf courses and farms. Those are the people whose job it is to know what problems can arise for residents and who should have access to the expertise to assess risk. Because of greed, they didn't do what they should have.

I completely agree with you.
And all of those loud voices in the right are screaming “OVER REGULATION !!” in our face.

[macmars45]

Jan 17, 2023 16:29:56 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I wonder if all of the residents truly knew about this issue before they bought their homes. Sure, it was probably disclosed somewhere in the lengthy paperwork they were given, but it's not unusual for people not to read those thoroughly. I have never been in a comparable situation, but it never would have crossed my mind that there would be a community in the US that I could buy property within that wouldn't be able to provide me with drinking water. Especially if it was the first time living in the desert for folks, I can see some people just assuming that there wouldn't be houses there if they weren't habitable? So sure, they could have done things to protect themselves, but they may not have known what to look for. I didn't read my paperwork to see if I was guaranteed water - that was just one of my expectations buying a home in a neighborhood.

I think personal responsibility is important, but I also think that the government has responsibility to protect citizens from their own lack of education or critical thinking around things. The people who allowed that development to be built should never have approved it and definitely shouldn't have approved things like golf courses and farms. Those are the people whose job it is to know what problems can arise for residents and who should have access to the expertise to assess risk. Because of greed, they didn't do what they should have.

Not the same at all, but the amount of surprised people when our neighborhood HOA went into effect (new construction neighborhood) was eye opening. More than one home owner was very adamant they never would've bought if they knew it had an HOA. Read your damn paperwork then!

I agree with you though wildrice.

[notreal]

This is not to say that Scottsdale is water responsible FYI, they have a Great Wolf Lodge for crying out loud.

[pixy0stix]

Jan 18, 2023 14:16:07 GMT -5 VillainV said:

Two more thoughts:

1. Scottsdale chose to stop allowing water distribution to this area, but is still allowing people in Scottsdale city limits to water golf courses and fill pools. I understand why they would decide to cut off an unsupported area, but I can see why the residents are upset that Scottsdale has prioritized golf courses and pools over some people’s lives and livelihood.

2. Possibly anecdotal, but several of the people interviewed in the various articles have said they now they do laundry at family’s houses in Scottsdale or joined a gym in Scottsdale to shower….so I wonder how much water Scottsdale is actually saving by cutting off this distribution.

It all boils down to, these people shouldn't be there. They are there via a loophole, they can't organize to save themselves, and they will have to move. I bet shortly all other surrounding areas are going to cut them off from water too.

[pixy0stix]

Jan 18, 2023 14:47:07 GMT -5 notreal said:

This is not to say that Scottsdale is water responsible FYI, they have a Great Wolf Lodge for crying out loud.

Right? The whole area is irresponsible.

[sent]

This is where the free market comes in to save people like this. Like they can just buy the water they need and the market will sort itself out. Poland Spring or whatever.

I'm being facetious but I see the "free market" argument come up all.the.time when people talk about the issues sparkythelawyer mentioned about blue state people fleeing because of the taxes.

[icedcoffee]

I would love to see what gets discussed on the Rio Verde Foothills facebook page. LOL

That article from The New Yorker was a goldmine of insanity.

[notreal]

Jan 18, 2023 15:05:51 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

I would love to see what gets discussed on the Rio Verde Foothills facebook page. LOL

That article from The New Yorker was a goldmine of insanity.

There is a public Facebook page just for the water situation and it's wild enough for me.

[icedcoffee]

Jan 18, 2023 15:33:38 GMT -5 notreal said:

Jan 18, 2023 15:05:51 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

I would love to see what gets discussed on the Rio Verde Foothills facebook page. LOL

That article from The New Yorker was a goldmine of insanity.

There is a public Facebook page just for the water situation and it's wild enough for me.

I lurked for a bit. OMG. These people are insane. 😂