EI5: Why the Republicans are messing with the debt ceiling

[pixy0stix]

(Explain it like I'm 5) - Because when Trump was in power they raised it substantially.

And to head off the "because they're assholes" or other comments. Yes, I agree, but I want to know their end game. Is it really just to destroy the government?

[Bad Dingo]

Leverage because they really don't care about burning it all down to get what they want.

[smock]

Because they only care about power. As a result, they only care about the national debt and the federal deficit when they're not in power.

[macmars45]

They are 100% on board with destroying the government so they can rule a fascist country.

[sonrisa]

I don't think it's one unified end game. Some just want attention. Some want to burn it all down. Some want the power and control that comes with messing with something important. And none have seen a recent Republican example who succeeded by cooperation or coalition building. They have seen their more conciliatory peers get shoved down or run out of town.

[mrsslocombe]

They want to force the Biden administration to make cuts to Social Security and Medicare, which (some) Republicans have been jerking off to that idea for years. And the debt ceiling is the only leverage they have until January 2025, if they win the presidency.

They know those cuts are deeply unpopular. But they think that the average person will blame Biden/the Democrats because typically, whomever is president gets blamed. And if the economy tanks in the process, they assume they control enough of the media narrative to hang it on Biden/Democrats.

So it's a win-win in their minds. Either they get the cuts to the social safety net that is their reason to get out of bed in the morning, OR the economy takes a nose dive and Biden gets blamed.

[pixy0stix]

Jan 30, 2023 16:32:51 GMT -5 mrsslocombe said:

They want to force the Biden administration to make cuts to Social Security and Medicare, which (some) Republicans have been jerking off to that idea for years. And the debt ceiling is the only leverage they have until January 2025, if they win the presidency.

They know those cuts are deeply unpopular. But they think that the average person will blame Biden/the Democrats because typically, whomever is president gets blamed. And if the economy tanks in the process, they assume they control enough of the media narrative to hang it on Biden/Democrats.

So it's a win-win in their minds. Either they get the cuts to the social safety net that is their reason to get out of bed in the morning, OR the economy takes a nose dive and Biden gets blamed.

Perfect, this is what I was looking for.

[lac]

Is my tin foil hat too tight, or are they trying to recreate conditions that led to the 1933 version of the Weimar Republic?

The circumstances of each are apples and oranges, but hyperinflation and distrust in government are allies to fascism.

[lilac05]

I’m addition to mrsslocombe’s great points, I think it’s also pandering to their base. They can get the sound bites they need to show that they’re trying to rein in spending and get the budget under control/stop unnecessary spending. Forget the fact that that’s not how the debt ceiling works…but they don’t care about that. I would bet that most Republicans can’t tell you the difference between debt ceiling and budgets/spending for the new year. They just think “we can’t keep spending more than we make” and figure you accomplish that by not raising the debt ceiling. Republican legislators find it easier to just go along with that than to try and educate their rabid supporters who refuse to listen to anything other than what they already believe to be the truth. They think raising the debt ceiling will lead to them losing supporters.

None of them seem to be able to answer why Republicans voted to raise the debt ceiling significantly 3 times under Trump, but NOW it’s suddenly a huge issue. (Or at least I haven’t seen a good answer for this.)

[seeyalater52]

Jan 30, 2023 22:11:19 GMT -5 lac said:

Is my tin foil hat too tight, or are they trying to recreate conditions that led to the 1933 version of the Weimar Republic?

The circumstances of each are apples and oranges, but hyperinflation and distrust in government are allies to fascism.

No, it’s all coming together quite horrifyingly.

[lac]

Jan 30, 2023 23:00:35 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Jan 30, 2023 22:11:19 GMT -5 lac said:

Is my tin foil hat too tight, or are they trying to recreate conditions that led to the 1933 version of the Weimar Republic?

The circumstances of each are apples and oranges, but hyperinflation and distrust in government are allies to fascism.

No, it’s all coming together quite horrifyingly.

*tinfoil visor, if not a hat* Okay, so this is what’s happening, this is their playbook. It’s neither novel nor has been outwardly successful in the past. Why are we looking for nuance?

They’re trying to force the populace’s hand to become amenable to fascist leaders who support genocide because “at least someone’s doing something”

Why are we trying to understand their nuance? They aren’t stupid. They’re dangerous.

[lac]

Jan 30, 2023 22:58:40 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

I’m addition to mrsslocombe’s great points, I think it’s also pandering to their base. They can get the sound bites they need to show that they’re trying to rein in spending and get the budget under control/stop unnecessary spending. Forget the fact that that’s not how the debt ceiling works…but they don’t care about that. I would bet that most Republicans can’t tell you the difference between debt ceiling and budgets/spending for the new year. They just think “we can’t keep spending more than we make” and figure you accomplish that by not raising the debt ceiling. Republican legislators find it easier to just go along with that than to try and educate their rabid supporters who refuse to listen to anything other than what they already believe to be the truth. They think raising the debt ceiling will lead to them losing supporters.

None of them seem to be able to answer why Republicans voted to raise the debt ceiling significantly 3 times under Trump, but NOW it’s suddenly a huge issue. (Or at least I haven’t seen a good answer for this.)

Because they want a collapse.

[seeyalater52]

Jan 30, 2023 23:12:11 GMT -5 lac said:

Jan 30, 2023 23:00:35 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

No, it’s all coming together quite horrifyingly.

*tinfoil visor, if not a hat* Okay, so this is what’s happening, this is their playbook. It’s neither novel nor has been outwardly successful in the past. Why are we looking for nuance?

They’re trying to force the populace’s hand to become amenable to fascist leaders who support genocide because “at least someone’s doing something”

Why are we trying to understand their nuance? They aren’t stupid. They’re dangerous.

I don’t disagree but also don’t underestimate how much money there is to be made in the “end times” these days because a lot of this debt game they’re playing implicates capitalism too.

[lac]

Jan 30, 2023 23:25:14 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Jan 30, 2023 23:12:11 GMT -5 lac said:

*tinfoil visor, if not a hat* Okay, so this is what’s happening, this is their playbook. It’s neither novel nor has been outwardly successful in the past. Why are we looking for nuance?

They’re trying to force the populace’s hand to become amenable to fascist leaders who support genocide because “at least someone’s doing something”

Why are we trying to understand their nuance? They aren’t stupid. They’re dangerous.

I don’t disagree but also don’t underestimate how much money there is to be made in the “end times” these days because a lot of this debt game they’re playing implicates capitalism too.

100%. I work in entertainment, and it feels like I learned a whole bunch of stuff growing up between the Crucible and Cabaret, and suddenly the intersection of McCarthyism and the rise of the third reich has become shockingly relevant.

Obviously this is real life. But I find myself more “duh it’s evil” than my peers.

[lac]

Jan 30, 2023 23:25:14 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Jan 30, 2023 23:12:11 GMT -5 lac said:

*tinfoil visor, if not a hat* Okay, so this is what’s happening, this is their playbook. It’s neither novel nor has been outwardly successful in the past. Why are we looking for nuance?

They’re trying to force the populace’s hand to become amenable to fascist leaders who support genocide because “at least someone’s doing something”

Why are we trying to understand their nuance? They aren’t stupid. They’re dangerous.

I don’t disagree but also don’t underestimate how much money there is to be made in the “end times” these days because a lot of this debt game they’re playing implicates capitalism too.

Thank you. Yikes.

[VillainV]

Jan 30, 2023 23:12:11 GMT -5 lac said:

Jan 30, 2023 23:00:35 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

No, it’s all coming together quite horrifyingly.

*tinfoil visor, if not a hat* Okay, so this is what’s happening, this is their playbook. It’s neither novel nor has been outwardly successful in the past. Why are we looking for nuance?

They’re trying to force the populace’s hand to become amenable to fascist leaders who support genocide because “at least someone’s doing something”

Why are we trying to understand their nuance? They aren’t stupid. They’re dangerous.

Well, I think many of them are stupid AND dangerous…

[MixedBerryJam]

Jan 30, 2023 16:33:54 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jan 30, 2023 16:32:51 GMT -5 mrsslocombe said:

They want to force the Biden administration to make cuts to Social Security and Medicare, which (some) Republicans have been jerking off to that idea for years. And the debt ceiling is the only leverage they have until January 2025, if they win the presidency.

They know those cuts are deeply unpopular. But they think that the average person will blame Biden/the Democrats because typically, whomever is president gets blamed. And if the economy tanks in the process, they assume they control enough of the media narrative to hang it on Biden/Democrats.

So it's a win-win in their minds. Either they get the cuts to the social safety net that is their reason to get out of bed in the morning, OR the economy takes a nose dive and Biden gets blamed.

Perfect, this is what I was looking for.

Thank you for asking the question, and this answer … answers a lot of questions. But why isn’t every democrat hollering this shit from every street corner, on every talking head show. This is how we got the ACÁ way back when. In fact, that’s when R’s became famous for never having town halls, etc. iirc. Let’s do that again.

[mrsukyankee]

Jan 30, 2023 23:25:14 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Jan 30, 2023 23:12:11 GMT -5 lac said:

*tinfoil visor, if not a hat* Okay, so this is what’s happening, this is their playbook. It’s neither novel nor has been outwardly successful in the past. Why are we looking for nuance?

They’re trying to force the populace’s hand to become amenable to fascist leaders who support genocide because “at least someone’s doing something”

Why are we trying to understand their nuance? They aren’t stupid. They’re dangerous.

I don’t disagree but also don’t underestimate how much money there is to be made in the “end times” these days because a lot of this debt game they’re playing implicates capitalism too.

Yup, look at England. They are destroying the country and making mint off of it. I honestly think that they and their cronies will make plenty of cash off the destruction of democracy and screw everyone else in the process (I mean, you can look at a lot of fascist states and who comes out well in it - those who have enough power.

[mrsslocombe]

Jan 31, 2023 9:28:15 GMT -5 MixedBerryJam said:

Jan 30, 2023 16:33:54 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Perfect, this is what I was looking for.

Thank you for asking the question, and this answer … answers a lot of questions. But why isn’t every democrat hollering this shit from every street corner, on every talking head show. This is how we got the ACÁ way back when. In fact, that’s when R’s became famous for never having town halls, etc. iirc. Let’s do that again.

As someone who is way too in touch with politics-there are many democrats out there talking about it. But there are a lot of problems with getting this message out to the average person.

1. Other competing priorities-we have a horrific murder of yet another black man by police, multiple mass shootings, heinous bills attacking the very existence of trans and gender non-conforming children AND adults, anti-abortion legislation, etc etc etc. 

2. Related to the above...it is MUCH easier to communicate about things that have already happened, like actual bills in existence, or mass shootings, etc vs what CAN/WILL happen in the future, especially for something as complicated as the debt ceiling. You can shout till you are blue in the face about how the stock market will lose 1/3 of it's value overnight but people aren't necessarily going to believe that. There's so much skepticism about "experts" and "predictions" that the average person is very Doubting Thomas. I mean a solid 1/3 of the country thinks Jan 6th was a peaceful protest that turned violent due to jackbooted thugs and WE WATCHED IT HAPPEN LIVE. 

3. The conservative/republican ecosystem has a much more centralized media vs liberal media. And their viewership is much more prone to buying into narratives than moderates, independents, liberals. Also right wing media focuses on victimhood, which is a much more engaging narrative than 1930s-era financial legislation that could bottom out the world economy.

4. Unfortunately, a large swath of the country is just not as tuned is as people on this board. I mean, my jaw DROPPED the other day when a DC reporter said, anecdotally, that outside of DC when he is just chatting with people at the grocery store etc...a majority think "Ron Desantis" and "George Santos" are the same person. They are just vaguely aware there is some "Santo guy". I mean we just live in a different world from a lot of people in this country who only tune in when something absolutely batshit goes down, or the last few weeks of a presidential election.