Chinese spy balloon over Montana

[lilac05]

Feb 4, 2023 23:32:44 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I assume they're not just recovering whatever data was collected but also reverse engineering the tech

I read somewhere (in an article from 2022) that we’ve also got spy balloons, but I don’t recall where I read it. And three of these flew at least into US airspace if not over parts of the US when Trump was president. Biden knew about it on the 28th, and ordered for it to be shot down before it even hit the news on Thursday. Supposedly they were able to block its ability to receive information once it was over the United States…but that could also just be what they’re choosing to tell the US Public. I know we’re not getting anywhere near the whole story. We don’t need to know it, either.

[neverfstop]

What's the difference between a spy satellite vs a spy balloon? Just the height it's flying? Both countries have dozens of satellites and balloons... Is it just the psychological feeling that a balloon is worse than a satellite? I think it was more of a public provocation by the Chinese than any actual threat or useful intelligence gathering.

Also, the GOP is freaking out about this and calling Biden weak. Trump supposedly let 3 balloons fly over the US, but it was kept a secret.

[fortnightlily]

I mentioned the incident with China holding onto our manned spy plane during the Bush years and DH had no memory of what I was talking about.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

[basilosaurus]

Xi said shooting it down was an overreaction. Sure, Jan. I doubt a single American is buying that but he doesn't care about our reaction

[VillainV]

Feb 4, 2023 23:32:44 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I assume they're not just recovering whatever data was collected but also reverse engineering the tech

The irony is that it’s probably reverse-engineered from OUR tech! That’s China’s MO anyway. But it would be super-helpful for us to know exactly what they have and how they’re using it.

[VillainV]

Feb 5, 2023 8:26:16 GMT -5 fortnightlily said:

I mentioned the incident with China holding onto our manned spy plane during the Bush years and DH had no memory of what I was talking about.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

When I was in flight school, one of my instructors was the pilot from that incident, LT Shane Osborne. Interesting guy, unfortunately his flying career was cut short due to the injuries (physical and mental?) that he sustained from the Chinese.

[basilosaurus]

Feb 5, 2023 8:29:42 GMT -5 VillainV said:

Feb 4, 2023 23:32:44 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I assume they're not just recovering whatever data was collected but also reverse engineering the tech

The irony is that it’s probably reverse-engineered from OUR tech! That’s China’s MO anyway. But it would be super-helpful for us to know exactly what they have and how they’re using it.

Oh definitely. I don't think they'd reverse engineer so we can gain new knowledge. I agree it's to see where they are

[mofongo]

My H called it a gender reveal gone very wrong.

[Bad Dingo]

Feb 5, 2023 9:51:11 GMT -5 mofongo said:

My H called it a gender reveal gone very wrong.

AKA a gender reveal.

[mofongo]

Feb 5, 2023 10:49:15 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Feb 5, 2023 9:51:11 GMT -5 mofongo said:

My H called it a gender reveal gone very wrong.

AKA a gender reveal.

Thankfully I’ve never been invited to one!

[mala]

Feb 5, 2023 7:49:17 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

What's the difference between a spy satellite vs a spy balloon? Just the height it's flying? Both countries have dozens of satellites and balloons... Is it just the psychological feeling that a balloon is worse than a satellite? I think it was more of a public provocation by the Chinese than any actual threat or useful intelligence gathering.

Also, the GOP is freaking out about this and calling Biden weak. Trump supposedly let 3 balloons fly over the US, but it was kept a secret.

A spy satellite would be a permanent (years-long lifespan) object that's self sustaining at a stable orbit around the Earth. A balloon would be held in the air with lighter than the atmosphere gas, with a limited lifespan of (presumably) days, with limited control, lower in the atmosphere, and not fixed in a limited orbit.

[VillainV]

Feb 5, 2023 14:36:55 GMT -5 mala said:

Feb 5, 2023 7:49:17 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

What's the difference between a spy satellite vs a spy balloon? Just the height it's flying? Both countries have dozens of satellites and balloons... Is it just the psychological feeling that a balloon is worse than a satellite? I think it was more of a public provocation by the Chinese than any actual threat or useful intelligence gathering.

Also, the GOP is freaking out about this and calling Biden weak. Trump supposedly let 3 balloons fly over the US, but it was kept a secret.

A spy satellite would be a permanent (years-long lifespan) object that's self sustaining at a stable orbit around the Earth. A balloon would be held in the air with lighter than the atmosphere gas, with a limited lifespan of (presumably) days, with limited control, lower in the atmosphere, and not fixed in a limited orbit.

Feb 5, 2023 14:36:55 GMT -5 mala said:

Feb 5, 2023 7:49:17 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

What's the difference between a spy satellite vs a spy balloon? Just the height it's flying? Both countries have dozens of satellites and balloons... Is it just the psychological feeling that a balloon is worse than a satellite? I think it was more of a public provocation by the Chinese than any actual threat or useful intelligence gathering.

Also, the GOP is freaking out about this and calling Biden weak. Trump supposedly let 3 balloons fly over the US, but it was kept a secret.

A spy satellite would be a permanent (years-long lifespan) object that's self sustaining at a stable orbit around the Earth. A balloon would be held in the air with lighter than the atmosphere gas, with a limited lifespan of (presumably) days, with limited control, lower in the atmosphere, and not fixed in a limited orbit.

I think [mention]neverfstop [/mention] meant, why is everyone up in arms about a balloon, when it doesn’t seem like anyone gives a shit that the Chinese are spying on us with satellites?

I mean, technically the airspace over our country belongs to us, whereas space belongs to everyone. It’s not clear to me where the line between “our airspace” and “not our airspace” is, in legal terms. The National Airspace system goes up to about 60,000 feet, which is more or less where the balloon was, but on the news they said that was legally in our airspace, so I’m not entirely sure what the deal was.

Also, I guess people are scared that a balloon could potentially drop bombs on us? Or collect other kinds of intelligence that one can’t get from satellites?

But yeah. People are scared of a balloon but still download TikTok, so I dunno….

[mala]

Feb 5, 2023 15:18:21 GMT -5 VillainV said:

Feb 5, 2023 14:36:55 GMT -5 mala said:

A spy satellite would be a permanent (years-long lifespan) object that's self sustaining at a stable orbit around the Earth. A balloon would be held in the air with lighter than the atmosphere gas, with a limited lifespan of (presumably) days, with limited control, lower in the atmosphere, and not fixed in a limited orbit.

Feb 5, 2023 14:36:55 GMT -5 mala said:

A spy satellite would be a permanent (years-long lifespan) object that's self sustaining at a stable orbit around the Earth. A balloon would be held in the air with lighter than the atmosphere gas, with a limited lifespan of (presumably) days, with limited control, lower in the atmosphere, and not fixed in a limited orbit.

I think [mention]neverfstop [/mention] meant, why is everyone up in arms about a balloon, when it doesn’t seem like anyone gives a shit that the Chinese are spying on us with satellites?

I mean, technically the airspace over our country belongs to us, whereas space belongs to everyone. It’s not clear to me where the line between “our airspace” and “not our airspace” is, in legal terms. The National Airspace system goes up to about 60,000 feet, which is more or less where the balloon was, but on the news they said that was legally in our airspace, so I’m not entirely sure what the deal was.

Also, I guess people are scared that a balloon could potentially drop bombs on us? Or collect other kinds of intelligence that one can’t get from satellites?

But yeah. People are scared of a balloon but still download TikTok, so I dunno….

See, that makes more sense. LMAO.

Feels like an out of sight out of mind kinda thing. We (as in the general population) know the satellites are there, but we can't see them so we don't have to confront them day-to-day. The balloon is RIGHT THERE visible with the naked eye, and closer to it feels more vulnerable.

[AJL]

I've been giving far more brain space lately to the idea that certain kinds of fungus will mutate and infect humans, thus turning us into cannibalizing cauliflower headed monsters than the Chinese spy balloon.

Admittedly, I might be concerned with the wrong thing.

[mofongo]

Feb 5, 2023 21:50:17 GMT -5 AJL said:

I've been giving far more brain space lately to the idea that certain kinds of fungus will mutate and infect humans, thus turning us into cannibalizing cauliflower headed monsters than the Chinese spy balloon.

Admittedly, I might be concerned with the wrong thing.

Are you watching The Last of Us??

[AJL]

Feb 5, 2023 22:43:24 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Feb 5, 2023 21:50:17 GMT -5 AJL said:

I've been giving far more brain space lately to the idea that certain kinds of fungus will mutate and infect humans, thus turning us into cannibalizing cauliflower headed monsters than the Chinese spy balloon.

Admittedly, I might be concerned with the wrong thing.

Are you watching The Last of Us??

Haha! How could you tell?

[mofongo]

Feb 5, 2023 22:47:47 GMT -5 AJL said:

Feb 5, 2023 22:43:24 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Are you watching The Last of Us??

Haha! How could you tell?

The stuff of nightmares!!!

[pixy0stix]

Full circle kind of thing: There's a lot of suspicion that China is downplaying the event using TikTok

First read the NYT article: gift link

Then the WaPo article:gift link

[sonrisa]

Here is a link to Bowen Yang for anyone who hasn't seen it yet:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3kUa8uM4c

[Michelle]

Feb 5, 2023 15:18:21 GMT -5 VillainV said:

I think [mention]neverfstop [/mention] meant, why is everyone up in arms about a balloon, when it doesn’t seem like anyone gives a shit that the Chinese are spying on us with satellites?

I mean, technically the airspace over our country belongs to us, whereas space belongs to everyone. It’s not clear to me where the line between “our airspace” and “not our airspace” is, in legal terms. The National Airspace system goes up to about 60,000 feet, which is more or less where the balloon was, but on the news they said that was legally in our airspace, so I’m not entirely sure what the deal was.

Also, I guess people are scared that a balloon could potentially drop bombs on us? Or collect other kinds of intelligence that one can’t get from satellites?

But yeah. People are scared of a balloon but still download TikTok, so I dunno….

As I understand it, the balloon crossed the pacific and went over the Aleutian Islands to Alaska, then down through Yukon and BC, then to Idaho and Montana, and east from there.

The path across the Aleutian Islands to Alaska leads you right over sensitive Airforce bases with nuclear weapon assembly. Same for Montana.

The balloon was navigable and covering key sites where we have nuclear bomb assembly and storage - that could allow for inventory counting, plan for destruction, etc.

That very specific intelligence gathering maneuver does concern me more than what they could get from me through my subscription to Tik Tok. I don't do anything of national security interest on my phone. 

Is there something about TT I'm not thinking about that I should be concerned about? (Note, please read that with flat affect, or genuine inquiry - no sarcasm). Because hacking into my bank, seeing where i travel, how I spend my day, who i talk to, and what media I consume is all available through other means as well, which is why i'm not concerned about TT, compared to the advantages I get for tapping into certain consumable media with great efficiency.

[VillainV]

Feb 7, 2023 18:52:22 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Feb 5, 2023 15:18:21 GMT -5 VillainV said:

I think [mention]neverfstop [/mention] meant, why is everyone up in arms about a balloon, when it doesn’t seem like anyone gives a shit that the Chinese are spying on us with satellites?

I mean, technically the airspace over our country belongs to us, whereas space belongs to everyone. It’s not clear to me where the line between “our airspace” and “not our airspace” is, in legal terms. The National Airspace system goes up to about 60,000 feet, which is more or less where the balloon was, but on the news they said that was legally in our airspace, so I’m not entirely sure what the deal was.

Also, I guess people are scared that a balloon could potentially drop bombs on us? Or collect other kinds of intelligence that one can’t get from satellites?

But yeah. People are scared of a balloon but still download TikTok, so I dunno….

As I understand it, the balloon crossed the pacific and went over the Aleutian Islands to Alaska, then down through Yukon and BC, then to Idaho and Montana, and east from there.

The path across the Aleutian Islands to Alaska leads you right over sensitive Airforce bases with nuclear weapon assembly. Same for Montana.

The balloon was navigable and covering key sites where we have nuclear bomb assembly and storage - that could allow for inventory counting, plan for destruction, etc.

That very specific intelligence gathering maneuver does concern me more than what they could get from me through my subscription to Tik Tok. I don't do anything of national security interest on my phone. 

Is there something about TT I'm not thinking about that I should be concerned about? (Note, please read that with flat affect, or genuine inquiry - no sarcasm). Because hacking into my bank, seeing where i travel, how I spend my day, who i talk to, and what media I consume is all available through other means as well, which is why i'm not concerned about TT, compared to the advantages I get for tapping into certain consumable media with great efficiency.

Yes, I’m aware of the Air Force bases. I’m not sure I’d call any of them “sensitive” in the sense that you probably couldn’t see anything with a balloon that you couldn’t get from open source Google Earth imagery. The really sensitive stuff is all underground.

Also, I don’t think the balloon was really very steerable. It might have had extremely limited directional capability, but I highly doubt it could be controlled to fly a precise ground-track. I’m not an expert in this exact model, obviously, but I do have three decades of experience in aviation. It would have to have engines and directional control surfaces (none of which I saw in any of the open-source photos, but maybe it had very small ones?) and even then it would largely be at the mercy of air currents.

[pixy0stix]

Feb 7, 2023 18:52:22 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Feb 5, 2023 15:18:21 GMT -5 VillainV said:

I think [mention]neverfstop [/mention] meant, why is everyone up in arms about a balloon, when it doesn’t seem like anyone gives a shit that the Chinese are spying on us with satellites?

I mean, technically the airspace over our country belongs to us, whereas space belongs to everyone. It’s not clear to me where the line between “our airspace” and “not our airspace” is, in legal terms. The National Airspace system goes up to about 60,000 feet, which is more or less where the balloon was, but on the news they said that was legally in our airspace, so I’m not entirely sure what the deal was.

Also, I guess people are scared that a balloon could potentially drop bombs on us? Or collect other kinds of intelligence that one can’t get from satellites?

But yeah. People are scared of a balloon but still download TikTok, so I dunno….

As I understand it, the balloon crossed the pacific and went over the Aleutian Islands to Alaska, then down through Yukon and BC, then to Idaho and Montana, and east from there.

The path across the Aleutian Islands to Alaska leads you right over sensitive Airforce bases with nuclear weapon assembly. Same for Montana.

The balloon was navigable and covering key sites where we have nuclear bomb assembly and storage - that could allow for inventory counting, plan for destruction, etc.

That very specific intelligence gathering maneuver does concern me more than what they could get from me through my subscription to Tik Tok. I don't do anything of national security interest on my phone. 

Is there something about TT I'm not thinking about that I should be concerned about? (Note, please read that with flat affect, or genuine inquiry - no sarcasm). Because hacking into my bank, seeing where i travel, how I spend my day, who i talk to, and what media I consume is all available through other means as well, which is why i'm not concerned about TT, compared to the advantages I get for tapping into certain consumable media with great efficiency.

I just today posted in this thread the biggest security threat, controlling the narrative of news and influencing people on how they think.

Besides, from you they could get all sorts of personnel data from a large metropolis hospital.

[Michelle]

Feb 7, 2023 19:28:22 GMT -5 VillainV said:

Feb 7, 2023 18:52:22 GMT -5 Michelle said:

As I understand it, the balloon crossed the pacific and went over the Aleutian Islands to Alaska, then down through Yukon and BC, then to Idaho and Montana, and east from there.

The path across the Aleutian Islands to Alaska leads you right over sensitive Airforce bases with nuclear weapon assembly. Same for Montana.

The balloon was navigable and covering key sites where we have nuclear bomb assembly and storage - that could allow for inventory counting, plan for destruction, etc.

That very specific intelligence gathering maneuver does concern me more than what they could get from me through my subscription to Tik Tok. I don't do anything of national security interest on my phone. 

Is there something about TT I'm not thinking about that I should be concerned about? (Note, please read that with flat affect, or genuine inquiry - no sarcasm). Because hacking into my bank, seeing where i travel, how I spend my day, who i talk to, and what media I consume is all available through other means as well, which is why i'm not concerned about TT, compared to the advantages I get for tapping into certain consumable media with great efficiency.

Yes, I’m aware of the Air Force bases. I’m not sure I’d call any of them “sensitive” in the sense that you probably couldn’t see anything with a balloon that you couldn’t get from open source Google Earth imagery. The really sensitive stuff is all underground.

Also, I don’t think the balloon was really very steerable. It might have had extremely limited directional capability, but I highly doubt it could be controlled to fly a precise ground-track. I’m not an expert in this exact model, obviously, but I do have three decades of experience in aviation. It would have to have engines and directional control surfaces (none of which I saw in any of the open-source photos, but maybe it had very small ones?) and even then it would largely be at the mercy of air currents.

Interesting. Well your greater knowledge of aviation and the balloon's limitations compared to alternatives probably also contributes to the gap between what people are afraid of for those vs. the TT app, where most people don't read the fine print about what they allow the app to access on their phones.

[Michelle]

Feb 7, 2023 19:38:32 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Feb 7, 2023 18:52:22 GMT -5 Michelle said:

As I understand it, the balloon crossed the pacific and went over the Aleutian Islands to Alaska, then down through Yukon and BC, then to Idaho and Montana, and east from there.

The path across the Aleutian Islands to Alaska leads you right over sensitive Airforce bases with nuclear weapon assembly. Same for Montana.

The balloon was navigable and covering key sites where we have nuclear bomb assembly and storage - that could allow for inventory counting, plan for destruction, etc.

That very specific intelligence gathering maneuver does concern me more than what they could get from me through my subscription to Tik Tok. I don't do anything of national security interest on my phone. 

Is there something about TT I'm not thinking about that I should be concerned about? (Note, please read that with flat affect, or genuine inquiry - no sarcasm). Because hacking into my bank, seeing where i travel, how I spend my day, who i talk to, and what media I consume is all available through other means as well, which is why i'm not concerned about TT, compared to the advantages I get for tapping into certain consumable media with great efficiency.

I just today posted in this thread the biggest security threat, controlling the narrative of news and influencing people on how they think.

Besides, from you they could get all sorts of personnel data from a large metropolis hospital.

Only if i use the same device and use it to access sensitive data. I don't. We have security protocols that prevent that.

But i see your point on controlling the narrative, if that is the only place people go to get their information. I use TT to follow non-standard creators who share other media they come across through intentional searches, journal articles, etc. And then social/entertainment like dogs using talk buttons for communication and certain demographic humor/social concerns.

[pixy0stix]

Feb 7, 2023 19:44:21 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Feb 7, 2023 19:38:32 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I just today posted in this thread the biggest security threat, controlling the narrative of news and influencing people on how they think.

Besides, from you they could get all sorts of personnel data from a large metropolis hospital.

Only if i use the same device and use it to access sensitive data. I don't. We have security protocols that prevent that.

But i see your point on controlling the narrative, if that is the only place people go to get their information. I use TT to follow non-standard creators who share other media they come across through intentional searches, journal articles, etc. And then social/entertainment like dogs using talk buttons for communication and certain demographic humor/social concerns.

You take your phone to work every day, so it geotracks where you go. It has access to your camera and microphone. You don't have to access files to be sharing data.

[Michelle]

Feb 7, 2023 19:46:16 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Feb 7, 2023 19:44:21 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Only if i use the same device and use it to access sensitive data. I don't. We have security protocols that prevent that.

But i see your point on controlling the narrative, if that is the only place people go to get their information. I use TT to follow non-standard creators who share other media they come across through intentional searches, journal articles, etc. And then social/entertainment like dogs using talk buttons for communication and certain demographic humor/social concerns.

You take your phone to work every day, so it geotracks where you go. It has access to your camera and microphone. You don't have to access files to be sharing data.

What kind of data would they get by geotracking me if i were at the actual hospital? What would they get from my phone that is of any greater use than what they could get using satellite imagery, campus maps available online, or actual spies who try to infiltrate our research institute already?

I work in an old off-site building not attached to campus. There is nothing exciting nor sensitive about where i travel related to my work.

But the microphone... that is the most valuable consideration I hadn't taken into consideration. Thanks. If I were important enough that someone would know to hack into my phone and access my microphone and record my conversations about inappropriate staff behaviors and such, that is probably the highest risk. My phone is in my purse or laptop bag most of the time so there is nothing sensitive to access via the camera. 

[VillainV]

Feb 7, 2023 20:11:33 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Feb 7, 2023 19:46:16 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

You take your phone to work every day, so it geotracks where you go. It has access to your camera and microphone. You don't have to access files to be sharing data.

What kind of data would they get by geotracking me if i were at the actual hospital? What would they get from my phone that is of any greater use than what they could get using satellite imagery, campus maps available online, or actual spies who try to infiltrate our research institute already?

I work in an old off-site building not attached to campus. There is nothing exciting nor sensitive about where i travel related to my work.

But the microphone... that is the most valuable consideration I hadn't taken into consideration. Thanks. If I were important enough that someone would know to hack into my phone and access my microphone and record my conversations about inappropriate staff behaviors and such, that is probably the highest risk. My phone is in my purse or laptop bag most of the time so there is nothing sensitive to access via the camera. 

They may also access your camera. It’s not the data they get from ONE person that’s valuable, but all of the little tiny bits of information from a whole bunch of people that can add up to something big.

[pixy0stix]

Chinese balloon part of vast aerial surveillance program, U.S. says - wapo.st/3HKa1fF

It's buried in the article, but it answers why a balloon if it can't see more than a satellite:

But balloons offer some advantages. They can linger over a target for hours, whereas a satellite orbiting Earth may have only minutes to snap a picture of its target. “If you have a balloon that’s moving extremely slowly you have persistence that you can’t get from a satellite,” said retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Charlie “Tuna” Moore, a former fighter pilot who helped run operations out of NORAD and retired in October as deputy of U.S. Cyber Command.

Analysts think the balloons, like drones, can be remotely piloted — at about 30 to 60 mph, said one official. And because balloons float along high-altitude winds, their paths are less predictable and thus more difficult to track. The balloons are also much cheaper to produce and launch than space-based satellites.

[basilosaurus]

I know this is entirely beside the point, but I really want to know the story behind his call sign

[marcyiam]

Feb 9, 2023 3:39:02 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I know this is entirely beside the point, but I really want to know the story behind his call sign

I wonder if it's related to Charlie the Tuna from the Starkist tuna commercials.