Are Parents Responsible for Their Child's Actions?

[hermione]

This continues to play out in Michigan courts in regard to the of the Oxford School Shooter. I think it is likely the Appeals Court will find in favor of the parents but I am curious as to what people here think (about this topic in general and this case specifically).


www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/03/07/james-jennifer-crumbley-appeals-court-gun/69980986007/?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot

[ECB]

Clearly this isn't a black and white issue. By and large, there comes a point where we can't control another human - even ones we are raising. I don't think this is a "parents are fully responsible until (fill in the blank with an arbitrary age)" But to buy a child who is already having issues a GUN? There's a direct cause and effect there and I do think they need to be held accountable on some level.

[simpsongal]

OMG - the facts in case, they're so bad it seems like a fictitious moot court problem.

From the article: "At issue in this case is whether the Crumbleys acted with gross negligence, and, whether they had a legal duty to inform the school that their son had access to a gun."

With everything that's happened w/school shootings, I don't think it's too far to assign a legal duty in this case. I don't buy the slippery slope arguments they're making re parents being responsible for all the acts of their kids in all situations. If your child has access to deadly weapons (worse in this case, they bought the kid a gun), the parents should have some responsibility - if only to warn.

Maybe the following line of reasoning is too far but parents get held accountable if kids drink at their home, and one drives drunk and dies. Why should this be any different?

[Velar Fricative]

They bought him a gun. This is pretty black and white to me, but I guess it's all about what Michigan law says. If he stole the gun from elsewhere and committed these crimes, I wouldn't be yelling about the parents going to jail.

I think it also does depend on age too. For example, the 6-year-old in Newport News who shot his teacher. I'd love for the parents to be charged with something there because wtf. 6-year-olds don't go out to the gun shop and try to lie about their age to get a gun. Even if they didn't hand him the gun, it clearly wasn't secured where a very young child was living.

Overall though, it is a very nuanced thing. We could teach my kids right from wrong every single day (and we do) but it still concerns me that one of them might grow up to do something heinous regardless of what we've taught them. But that also doesn't mean we can do reckless or negligent shit around our kids and not pay the consequences ourselves in some way if something horrible happens. That's why there are different levels of crimes to charge people with.

[TR]

Not just parents, but I think any gun owner should be held responsible for what's done with it. And they'd bought the gun, right?

[timorousbeastie]

God I hope the court doesn’t side with the parents. These parents are just as culpable as their son. They knew he had serious mental health issues. They knew he was having hallucinations. He asked them to take him to a doctor and all they did was laugh at him. Knowing all this, they still bought him a gun. When they were shown what he wrote the morning of the shooting, they did absolutely nothing, despite the fact that they knew he had access to the gun.

There are plenty of times where parents shouldn’t be held responsible for their kid’s actions. These parents, however, absolutely should be held accountable for their own role in what he did. Four children are dead, 7 others shot, and I don’t even know how many others forever traumatized because of the actions/inactions of these parents.

[sonrisa]

Yes. There can be affirmative defenses, but at a bare minimum if your gun is used, you should bear some legal responsibility.

[waverly]

In all cases, no maybe not. In this case, the parents actions were very egregious, and I think they should be charged. For school shootings, I think it would actually be a good precedent that Parents should not be storing guns in their home if their child is exhibiting certain signs. This might be something akin to a "red flag" law. Those parents that persist in storing guns in their home after their child has exhibited a red flag should be charged.

[wesleycrusher]

In foster care there is something called the reasonable and prudent parenting standard, which covers foster parents from liabilities if the foster parent was allowing the child to participate in activity that a reasonable and prudent parent would allow. Think, teaching driving. There is inherent risk, but reasonable parents still teach their teen to drive. But if you were to teach a 10 year old how to drive- no, a reasonable parent would not, so therefore you're not covered under this standard.

So...would a reasonable and prudent parent have done what the Crumbleys did in regards to their child? NO, they would not.

[Michelle]

In states like Texas where we keep making the gun ownership laws more and more relaxed, the only way to combat the school shootings is to hold the gun owners accountable.

So if a kid gets a gun from their parents because their parents failed to adequately secure it, and that kid uses that gun to hurt someone else, hell yes, the parents need to be held accountable.

It will take a bunch of white republicans to start getting thrown in jail over this in order to get sensible gun laws in place.

[boxertdog]

In the case of a troubled kid and parents gave them access to a firearm? Yes 100%

[goldengirlz]

I don’t even think this needs be about parents per se. I’m hardly a lawyer but to me, if you have reason to believe someone could use a weapon to murder someone, and you give them that weapon, aren’t you showing depraved indifference to human life?

Maybe this isn’t the best parallel, but my mind immediately went to the Michelle Carter case, the teenager convicted of involuntary manslaughter for bullying her boyfriend to commit suicide. She didn’t even provide him with the actual murder weapon and she was still sent to prison. Surely, there must be some precedent that can hold these people liable. There’s not a doubt in my mind that they have blood on their hands.

[maudefindlay]

Quote from the mother's lawyer. The problem is we are looking backwards at this case,” Smith responded. “At the end of the day, it truly wasn’t foreseeable that (Ethan) was going to take this gun and shoot people. If they did foresee their child doing that, there would be so many things done.”

So many red flags and troubling things were known to the parents, what would it have taken to ring the damn bell? These are also the same people who emptied their bank account, abandoned their kid, and hid out in an abandoned warehouse trying to escape to Canada. I hope this goes to trial.

[mpm]

I’m in favor of strict liability for gun owners. Intent, recklessness, or negligence would be irrelevant. Put it in the same category as statutory rape or felony murder. If you own it, you’re responsible for everything that was done with it. Gun ownership is inherently dangerous and should be treated that way.

Unfortunately, it’s unlikely to ever become the law anywhere.

[timorousbeastie]

Bumping this to update: “The Michigan Court of Appeals has affirmed that the parents of the Oxford High School shooter can go to trial on involuntary manslaughter charges.”

www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2023/03/23/appeals-court-affirms-parents-of-oxford-shooter-can-go-to-trial-on-involuntary-manslaughter-charges/

[hermione]

Mar 23, 2023 16:20:51 GMT -5 timorousbeastie said:

Bumping this to update: “The Michigan Court of Appeals has affirmed that the parents of the Oxford High School shooter can go to trial on involuntary manslaughter charges.”

www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2023/03/23/appeals-court-affirms-parents-of-oxford-shooter-can-go-to-trial-on-involuntary-manslaughter-charges/

I’m really surprised!

[leviosa]

As the parent of an incredibly high risk child. Yes. If she took a gun from my house to school and shot someone I would 100% expect to be held accountable.

I don’t own guns. Partly because of this.

Maybe it’s different because I 100% know this about my kid? She was adopted at 7 and we knew what her risk level was.

I guess. Is it possible for a parent to have absolutely no idea that their child is struggling this much? Because if that’s possible, maybe it’s different in that situation. But even if I had the slightest inkling of concern, I’d be locking stuff up so fast. I can’t imagine being 100% oblivious.

[penguingrrl]

Mar 24, 2023 7:02:44 GMT -5 leviosa said:

As the parent of an incredibly high risk child. Yes. If she took a gun from my house to school and shot someone I would 100% expect to be held accountable.

I don’t own guns. Partly because of this.

Maybe it’s different because I 100% know this about my kid? She was adopted at 7 and we knew what her risk level was.

I guess. Is it possible for a parent to have absolutely no idea that their child is struggling this much? Because if that’s possible, maybe it’s different in that situation. But even if I had the slightest inkling of concern, I’d be locking stuff up so fast. I can’t imagine being 100% oblivious.

I’m so sorry you’re going through this. As someone who also has a highly at-risk child, my heart goes out to you.

However, you’re giving these parents too much grace. It’s our job as parents to know our kids and recognize a problem of this magnitude. And missing it is also failing to do your duty as a parent. Providing a gun in that circumstance is absolutely negligent.  I’m not convinced it’s ever safe to have a gun in a home with a teenager, but I’m also not convinced gun ownership is ever safe so my opinion may be irrelevant.

[leviosa]

Mar 24, 2023 7:31:28 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Mar 24, 2023 7:02:44 GMT -5 leviosa said:

As the parent of an incredibly high risk child. Yes. If she took a gun from my house to school and shot someone I would 100% expect to be held accountable.

I don’t own guns. Partly because of this.

Maybe it’s different because I 100% know this about my kid? She was adopted at 7 and we knew what her risk level was.

I guess. Is it possible for a parent to have absolutely no idea that their child is struggling this much? Because if that’s possible, maybe it’s different in that situation. But even if I had the slightest inkling of concern, I’d be locking stuff up so fast. I can’t imagine being 100% oblivious.

I’m so sorry you’re going through this. As someone who also has a highly at-risk child, my heart goes out to you.

However, you’re giving these parents too much grace. It’s our job as parents to know our kids and recognize a problem of this magnitude. And missing it is also failing to do your duty as a parent. Providing a gun in that circumstance is absolutely negligent.  I’m not convinced it’s ever safe to have a gun in a home with a teenager, but I’m also not convinced gun ownership is ever safe so my opinion may be irrelevant.

Oh. I was not trying to give them any grace. At all.
I guess I was posing a separate question.

In my situation I will never own a gun. I would never trust any sort of locked safe with my kid.

I was more wondering if it’s possible for a parent to have absolutely no idea that their child is suffering. I don’t think it is.

But would someone have a different opinion on a parent having guns in a safe that a kid they ‘had no idea was struggling’ broke into.

I personally don’t think it changes things.

I’m sorry for your situation as well. It can be an exhausting and lonely place to sit in.

[wildrice]

Whether the kid is known to be struggling or not, I think any parent allowing any kid unsupervised access to a gun means the parent is responsible and should be liable if something happens. To an extent I don't think a parent should be charged if the kid then chooses to end their own life with that gun (obviously the outcome is worse than any other punishment) but... I still think they hold some blame for making that possible through that method. Kids should not have access to guns. Period, no exceptions. It's not safe for anyone. I know kids can get guns on the street or from someone else and then the parent shouldn't be liable, but if they can trace whoever they got that gun from, I think that person should be.

I do not think that even the best parents can prevent certain kids from many other problems, though. Kids are humans who have independent thoughts and there is nothing a parent can do to change that. They can certainly do what they can to influence that behavior, hold the kid accountable for their actions, etc but sometimes shit happens that is no reflection on the parents.

[penguingrrl]

Mar 24, 2023 9:25:48 GMT -5 leviosa said:

Mar 24, 2023 7:31:28 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

I’m so sorry you’re going through this. As someone who also has a highly at-risk child, my heart goes out to you.

However, you’re giving these parents too much grace. It’s our job as parents to know our kids and recognize a problem of this magnitude. And missing it is also failing to do your duty as a parent. Providing a gun in that circumstance is absolutely negligent.  I’m not convinced it’s ever safe to have a gun in a home with a teenager, but I’m also not convinced gun ownership is ever safe so my opinion may be irrelevant.

Oh. I was not trying to give them any grace. At all.
I guess I was posing a separate question.

In my situation I will never own a gun. I would never trust any sort of locked safe with my kid.

I was more wondering if it’s possible for a parent to have absolutely no idea that their child is suffering. I don’t think it is.

But would someone have a different opinion on a parent having guns in a safe that a kid they ‘had no idea was struggling’ broke into.

I personally don’t think it changes things.

I’m sorry for your situation as well. It can be an exhausting and lonely place to sit in.

Honestly, I know kids can be excellent at hiding their suffering, but when they reach the point of snapping an engaged parent shouldn’t be able to miss it.

However, it goes to my point that having a gun in a house with kids is never a safe idea.