Suggestions to help my 9 year old girl

[wendyp]

My DD has always been difficult. Difficult pregnancy, traumatic birth, difficult infant/toddler. Overall she is a great kid, but it hasn't been an easy road so far. No major issues thankfully, but so many small things that just wear on me overtime. She has/had sensory issues that have gotten better as she's gotten older, but of all my kids, she is the hardest one for anyone to get along with. Super picky eater, finicky about lots of things, bossy, tattles, implosive, possessive, stubborn.

On the other hand she does well in school, does well in activities, seems to get along well with most of her school friends, teacher says she's sweet and helpful.

We have always had a problem with her running her mouth and saying unnecessary things that can be hurtful to others even if they may be true. She has a hard time being happy for others. For example her friend just had a birthday and got a card with money$25 she was so excited to tell my daughter and my daughter says oh, well I got $100 for my birthday.

Her class did a jump rope fundraiser and my daughter did the max reps, she ran up to me excited and I was near a friend's mom, she tells me her laps and then tells friend's mom that her daughter didn't make it to the max reps.

These are just small examples but she does things like this so often and it's just draining to be around her a lot of the time. We have had millons of talks about being kind, being a good friend, being the kind of person you want to be around. We read books, have gone to therapy, etc. After each talk, we think we get through to her and then it happens again right after. It's like she can't help herself to just say something that isn't always nice. It's not always competitive and she will often argue with her brother about the dumbest stuff that doesn't matter at all.

I don't know what to do anymore, she says it doesn't make her feel good to be mean and she seems to feel terrible about it after the fact, she then gets very down on herself and says no one likes her and she has no friends, etc.

We try to be as encouraging as possible but I can see it now really affecting her friendships with longtime friends. (Like if 2 of them are watching something on the tablet, she takes it first to pick the show, holds the tablet and won't make any changes to this behavior unless I tell her to). And now it's affecting my friendships with adults because their kids don't want to be around my daughter anymore. And it sucks. And I don't know what to do anymore and I'm exhausted.

[Deleted]

Have you discussed your concerns with her pediatrician? I’d start there. The impulsiveness and blurting things out constantly and being a “difficult” kid make me wonder about ADHD. I’d want to discuss with a pediatrician and see whether filling out Connors or Vanderbilt forms would be recommended.

[ans1999]

Have you ever considered that some of these things could be related to ADHD? It could be related to the impulse control/emotional volitility we sometimes see with ADHD. 3rd/4th grade is about the time it starts to impact friendships. I am sorry you both are going through this! It is super hard to watch. I will also say that the ability to see other's perspectives is just starting to form at this age and could also be why you don't see much success with talks. I find 4th to be particularly difficult to navigate friendship-wise for a lot of girls.

[katfco]

Has she been evaluated by a psychologist at all? The sensory issues, food issues and lack of social cues are often signs of ASD or other issues.

[Patsy Baloney]

Have you had her evaluated for anything that might be standing in the way of her reading social cues or communicating well?

Generally, this seems like a problem with plenty of natural consequences. And I also want to say - as someone who interacts with kids pretty regularly, her behavior is not abnormal. She may need help due to ADHD, ASD, etc., but generally, she’s in good company. Literally every time I’m around a group, instructing a group, etc., I have to tell someone, “It’s not an argument/competition/etc., please stop talking and follow the direction/move on/find something else to do.”

The only thing I can think of is a peer group. My DD was assigned to one through her school at 9 for worry/anxiety. That group did wonders for her. I wonder if your school might have something like that for social skills?

[luckystar2]

So this sounds like my dd. I could relate completely to your first 2 sentences! She’s been difficult from the start! She is all the things you mentioned as well - super picky eater, finicky about lots of things, bossy, tattles, implosive, possessive, stubborn.

I agree with the previous posters - look into adhd. She finally got the diagnosis a few years ago (around 12). We went to therapy when she was around your DD’s age but the therapist was not helpful. We stopped for a while and started up again because I was soooo done with her behaviors and things really got bad during Covid lockdown.

Meds have helped but right now we are dealing with a resurgence of much of what you have mentioned. She is generally not as bad to her friends faces. She saves most of her vitriol for us. But I agree it’s like she can’t help herself from
Saying some of this stuff. We are back at her therapist and she’s also dealing with hormone issues as well. So I don’t know that adhd is 100% the answer but it’s been part of it.

[CurlyQ284]

Have you tried therapy? I'm kind of wondering if she has low self esteem and she kind of overcompensates by competing with others. If she feels like people don't like her, maybe in twisted kid logic she thinks if she "wins" at birthday money or jump rope or something then people will like her?

Oops sorry, I see you have done therapy! I read it twice but somehow missed it until the third re-read.

[pinkdutchtulips]

The social concerns remind me of my own daughter, now 13. She has control issues that we believe are related to anxiety (she refuses therapy so our options are incredibly limited). Her issues have carried over from school to home to my work and to my own relationships. It's draining, exhausting, and incredibly stressful. Like others mentioned above - she's fine w/ her friends albeit sometimes controlling aka she's the ringleader, but saves the 'mean reds' for me. 

I will add that she was recently dx'd w ADHD inattentive and a psychiatrist we saw gave us tentative dx of OCD and DMDD (the anger and irritability issues) pending the results of a neuropsych eval. 

I'd look into a neuropsych eval. If therapy isn't working, its time to escalate. GL!

[wendyp]

Apr 4, 2023 12:53:56 GMT -5 pinkdutchtulips said:

The social concerns remind me of my own daughter, now 13. She has control issues that we believe are related to anxiety (she refuses therapy so our options are incredibly limited). Her issues have carried over from school to home to my work and to my own relationships. It's draining, exhausting, and incredibly stressful. Like others mentioned above - she's fine w/ her friends albeit sometimes controlling aka she's the ringleader, but saves the 'mean reds' for me. 

I will add that she was recently dx'd w ADHD inattentive and a psychiatrist we saw gave us tentative dx of OCD and DMDD (the anger and irritability issues) pending the results of a neuropsych eval. 

I'd look into a neuropsych eval. If therapy isn't working, its time to escalate. GL!

So we have had a talk with her pediatrician, who recommended therapy which was ok, but I just can't afford it at $200 a session. Our insurance won't cover any therapy so everything is out of pocket for us. That therapist diagnosed her with ocd as well as anxiety. But she won't really talk at therapy so I don't know how good of diagnosis it is.

[mrsukyankee]

Calm Kids

It may not be a perfect help, but every parent I suggested this to with an impulsive kid, found this book helpful to use. I'm guessing it's in the US as well.

[pinkdutchtulips]

Apr 4, 2023 13:14:09 GMT -5 wendyp said:

Apr 4, 2023 12:53:56 GMT -5 pinkdutchtulips said:

The social concerns remind me of my own daughter, now 13. She has control issues that we believe are related to anxiety (she refuses therapy so our options are incredibly limited). Her issues have carried over from school to home to my work and to my own relationships. It's draining, exhausting, and incredibly stressful. Like others mentioned above - she's fine w/ her friends albeit sometimes controlling aka she's the ringleader, but saves the 'mean reds' for me. 

I will add that she was recently dx'd w ADHD inattentive and a psychiatrist we saw gave us tentative dx of OCD and DMDD (the anger and irritability issues) pending the results of a neuropsych eval. 

I'd look into a neuropsych eval. If therapy isn't working, its time to escalate. GL!

So we have had a talk with her pediatrician, who recommended therapy which was ok, but I just can't afford it at $200 a session. Our insurance won't cover any therapy so everything is out of pocket for us. That therapist diagnosed her with ocd as well as anxiety. But she won't really talk at therapy so I don't know how good of diagnosis it is.

Mine went through 4 therapists in 4 years with the final one suspecting she had ODD. She would participate in the first few sessions then completely shut down and stop participating. I'm holding off on any more talk therapy until we get her ADHD meds started. In what I've read, some kids with ADHD do not respond to talk therapy until the edge is taken off. What takes off that edge? ADHD meds. It's a vicious cycle to get to that point. 

Her therapists were never able to get to the point of a dx and a psychiatrist was able to narrow down my laundry list of potential conditions down to OCD and DMDD but reserved making any formal dx until after a neuropsych eval. 

[wanderingback]

If she’s already been diagnosed then I would definitely follow up with a medical professional to confirm diagnosis and treatment options. Did your pediatrician talk about medication? Would you be able to afford a few therapy sessions? I don’t know where you live but you might be able to find a less expensive option.
Hope you get some treatment options soon.

[wendyp]

Apr 4, 2023 12:51:12 GMT -5 luckystar2 said:

So this sounds like my dd. I could relate completely to your first 2 sentences! She’s been difficult from the start! She is all the things you mentioned as well - super picky eater, finicky about lots of things, bossy, tattles, implosive, possessive, stubborn.

I agree with the previous posters - look into adhd. She finally got the diagnosis a few years ago (around 12). We went to therapy when she was around your DD’s age but the therapist was not helpful. We stopped for a while and started up again because I was soooo done with her behaviors and things really got bad during Covid lockdown.

Meds have helped but right now we are dealing with a resurgence of much of what you have mentioned. She is generally not as bad to her friends faces. She saves most of her vitriol for us. But I agree it’s like she can’t help herself from
Saying some of this stuff. We are back at her therapist and she’s also dealing with hormone issues as well. So I don’t know that adhd is 100% the answer but it’s been part of it.

Her pediatrician has suggested it and we have gone to therapy, but I haven't noticed a huge change and it has so far cost thousands of dollars. I just can't afford anymore of it right now.

I need therapy from dealing with her daily, it is just so draining. I feel like she just takes, takes, takes and rarely gives back in any form. We are constantly having to tell her to think of other peoples feelings and we are constantly correcting her for bad behavior, like always grabbing the remote and never letting anyone else pick a movie, grabbing her toys that she left out from her brother and knocking her other brother down on the way to grab them.

We aren't constantly yelling at her, but we do correct her often and I know she feels like she's picked on. But my middle one does super sweet and kind things often, like if he finds 2 coins, he gets excited and gives one to her so they can both have one. She finds them and hides them so she doesn't have to share. She very very rarely does anything kind or nice without being told to do it.

After years of reading books, therapy, constant corrections and talks, I'm exhausted. Why is it so hard for her to be kind to others?

[wendyp]

Apr 4, 2023 13:50:12 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

If she’s already been diagnosed then I would definitely follow up with a medical professional to confirm diagnosis and treatment options. Did your pediatrician talk about medication? Would you be able to afford a few therapy sessions? I don’t know where you live but you might be able to find a less expensive option.
Hope you get some treatment options soon.

I guess I don't know exactly what diagnosed means. The therapist basically said it sounds like she has ocd based on the things I've told her. We don't have anything official in writing and they have said that they don't treat that with medication at this age.

I would like to do more therapy in a few months when we can afford more but it honestly felt mostly like I was going in and telling them all these bad things she was doing which increased her anxiety and self esteem. The therapist was great and did a lot of play therapy which was interesting to watch and I'd love to continue but it just seems like it is something she would need weekly to be able to see any benefit from it and I just can't afford it.

[luckystar2]

Apr 4, 2023 13:58:38 GMT -5 wendyp said:

Apr 4, 2023 12:51:12 GMT -5 luckystar2 said:

So this sounds like my dd. I could relate completely to your first 2 sentences! She’s been difficult from the start! She is all the things you mentioned as well - super picky eater, finicky about lots of things, bossy, tattles, implosive, possessive, stubborn.

I agree with the previous posters - look into adhd. She finally got the diagnosis a few years ago (around 12). We went to therapy when she was around your DD’s age but the therapist was not helpful. We stopped for a while and started up again because I was soooo done with her behaviors and things really got bad during Covid lockdown.

Meds have helped but right now we are dealing with a resurgence of much of what you have mentioned. She is generally not as bad to her friends faces. She saves most of her vitriol for us. But I agree it’s like she can’t help herself from
Saying some of this stuff. We are back at her therapist and she’s also dealing with hormone issues as well. So I don’t know that adhd is 100% the answer but it’s been part of it.

Her pediatrician has suggested it and we have gone to therapy, but I haven't noticed a huge change and it has so far cost thousands of dollars. I just can't afford anymore of it right now.

I need therapy from dealing with her daily, it is just so draining. I feel like she just takes, takes, takes and rarely gives back in any form. We are constantly having to tell her to think of other peoples feelings and we are constantly correcting her for bad behavior, like always grabbing the remote and never letting anyone else pick a movie, grabbing her toys that she left out from her brother and knocking her other brother down on the way to grab them.

We aren't constantly yelling at her, but we do correct her often and I know she feels like she's picked on. But my middle one does super sweet and kind things often, like if he finds 2 coins, he gets excited and gives one to her so they can both have one. She finds them and hides them so she doesn't have to share. She very very rarely does anything kind or nice without being told to do it.

After years of reading books, therapy, constant corrections and talks, I'm exhausted. Why is it so hard for her to be kind to others?

Please feel free to message me privately if you want to talk more. I honestly can relate to you SO much! It’s exactly how I feel. Completely drained. I need therapy myself. We are seeing a family therapist so I’ve gone in on my own some.

I hear you though. I have a HSA so insurance won’t cover anything until I hit my deductible but the therapist we finally found who diagnosed her with adhd doesn’t even take insurance so it’s all OOP anyways. We’ve spent tons and tons of money. I’ve read every strong willed child variation book! I don’t know how much therapy itself helps because she doesn’t really buy into it. It at least got us to get her on meds but we are back to having issues again. And we deal with the same issues of it feeling like it hurts her self esteem at therapy to say all the issues. Although now that she’s older she goes in on her own and we meet on our own some.

I just talked with the therapist about some of this - that we correct her and she may seem like she feels bad afterwards but she never learns!! Same issue again next time. And yeah when you are constantly correcting/disciplining she now feels that we blame her for everything. It’s effecting her self esteem. So it’s a vicious circle.

[expectantsteelerfan]

My ds (who does have ADHD) struggled with empathy (which is I think the trait you are describing your dd lacking in a lot of these situations). We found working through a lot of the activities in this book helpful when I could get him to do them:

www.amazon.com/Learning-Listen-Care-Workbook-Self-Control/dp/1572245980/ref=asc_df_1572245980/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312680791333&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11088125225084535033&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9005950&hvtargid=pla-563714600304&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=62255331975&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312680791333&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11088125225084535033&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9005950&hvtargid=pla-563714600304

[genet313]

Apr 4, 2023 13:58:38 GMT -5 wendyp said:

Apr 4, 2023 12:51:12 GMT -5 luckystar2 said:

So this sounds like my dd. I could relate completely to your first 2 sentences! She’s been difficult from the start! She is all the things you mentioned as well - super picky eater, finicky about lots of things, bossy, tattles, implosive, possessive, stubborn.

I agree with the previous posters - look into adhd. She finally got the diagnosis a few years ago (around 12). We went to therapy when she was around your DD’s age but the therapist was not helpful. We stopped for a while and started up again because I was soooo done with her behaviors and things really got bad during Covid lockdown.

Meds have helped but right now we are dealing with a resurgence of much of what you have mentioned. She is generally not as bad to her friends faces. She saves most of her vitriol for us. But I agree it’s like she can’t help herself from
Saying some of this stuff. We are back at her therapist and she’s also dealing with hormone issues as well. So I don’t know that adhd is 100% the answer but it’s been part of it.

Her pediatrician has suggested it and we have gone to therapy, but I haven't noticed a huge change and it has so far cost thousands of dollars. I just can't afford anymore of it right now.

I need therapy from dealing with her daily, it is just so draining. I feel like she just takes, takes, takes and rarely gives back in any form. We are constantly having to tell her to think of other peoples feelings and we are constantly correcting her for bad behavior, like always grabbing the remote and never letting anyone else pick a movie, grabbing her toys that she left out from her brother and knocking her other brother down on the way to grab them.

We aren't constantly yelling at her, but we do correct her often and I know she feels like she's picked on. But my middle one does super sweet and kind things often, like if he finds 2 coins, he gets excited and gives one to her so they can both have one. She finds them and hides them so she doesn't have to share. She very very rarely does anything kind or nice without being told to do it.

After years of reading books, therapy, constant corrections and talks, I'm exhausted. Why is it so hard for her to be kind to others?

Hugs. This is my 8 yr DD too. She has ADHD. It is so hard some days.

Look into a social skills or group therapy class for her. It’s cheaper than individual sessions because it’s group and also in some ways better because she can see there are other kids similar to her, struggling, etc. this really helped my DD and she has been noticeably kinder in some scenarios.

[atarianna]

Your daughter sounds a lot like my daughter and it is HARD. I am super empathetic and the opposite of her so it is incredibly difficult for me to understand her.

I spoke at length with my own therapist about her/our relationship and her guidance was incredibly enlightening for me. First off, she thinks my daughter is mildly on the spectrum. Second, she basically told me that my daughter is her own person and in time she will understand what is/is not socially acceptable behavior (likely from friends/peers) but for now, I need to stop trying to mold her into who she “should” be, and allow her to be her true self.

It’s helped me let go a little bit about the things that bother me but it’s still hard.

[devonpow]

Apr 4, 2023 14:04:47 GMT -5 wendyp said:

Apr 4, 2023 13:50:12 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

If she’s already been diagnosed then I would definitely follow up with a medical professional to confirm diagnosis and treatment options. Did your pediatrician talk about medication? Would you be able to afford a few therapy sessions? I don’t know where you live but you might be able to find a less expensive option.
Hope you get some treatment options soon.

I guess I don't know exactly what diagnosed means. The therapist basically said it sounds like she has ocd based on the things I've told her. We don't have anything official in writing and they have said that they don't treat that with medication at this age.

I would like to do more therapy in a few months when we can afford more but it honestly felt mostly like I was going in and telling them all these bad things she was doing which increased her anxiety and self esteem. The therapist was great and did a lot of play therapy which was interesting to watch and I'd love to continue but it just seems like it is something she would need weekly to be able to see any benefit from it and I just can't afford it.

I hate to bring it up since it’s more money, but it sounds like a good step is getting a neuropsych evaluation done so you can get an official diagnosis. That will help with a lot of things - IEPs, meds, etc. You definitely can medicate at age 9 if it’s warranted. DS1 started his meds (for anxiety) at 10 and it has been life changing. ((Hugs)) ETA: we have a friend whose son has ADHD and OCD and started medication at age 9. It can definitely depend on diagnosis and the psychiatrist/doctor, but it’s definitely not unheard of to medicate for those disorders at a younger age

[devonpow]

I will also say that after watching DS1 go through YEARS of therapy (he started at age 7) that I personally have found traditional talk/play therapy to be the least helpful. He’s a kid and part of his anxiety is discussing emotion and feelings - talk/play therapy just doesn’t seem to progress him very much. The most helpful (outside of meds) has been group/social skills therapy and CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) - much more targeted on actually helping him with some of the behavior issues we were seeing. I know you said you were looking to go back to therapy in a while so it might be helpful to look into something like that?

[k3am]

I have no advice, but can commisserate. DD(10) has an intake appointment for counseling/therapy/psychiatry/whatever they recommend next week and we're waiting on a referral for a neuropsych eval that hopefully gets approved.

DD has a couple chunks of brain missing. Anytime something is off with her, my thoughts go there, but I think it's because I'd like a way to explain her behavior. Between that and the massive amount of drugs we had her on as a toddler, I wouldn't be surprised if it were some combination of issues. But also wouldn't be surprised if they said it's not at all related.

[jobae1234]

Cheap/free options- get the school guidance counselor involved, and often they do a social skills group.
Look for local doctoral clinical psychology programs. Grad students are very effective therapists and they cost much, much less.
Call up many therapists and ask if any do sliding scale.
Look on Open Path Collective, which is a group of therapists who take low private pay fees ($40 or so).
Search community mental health near you.

[fivechickens]

D2 has social pragmatic communication disorder and some of what your described are things that she does.

She is a super picky eater. Says things that can be construed as bragging or ‘one upping’ her sisters or friends. She is emotionally immature and gets very upset over stupid shit. She is a sweet kid but just sees the world a little differently so her reactions to things aren’t always appropriate (For example, At her grandfather’s funeral she was smiling/giggling just acting as if it was another random day). She is definitely the most frustrating one of my three.

She will be 12 this month and somethings have improved but some things have remained the same.

Here is a link that may be helpful:

psychcentral.com/disorders/social-pragmatic-communication-disorder

[wendyp]

Thank you all so much, Im going to gather this information and move forward with as much as I can. This was all extremely helpful.

[imimahoney]

Just wanted to chime in and say this sounds like my son.

He has adhd and sensory processing disorder. He struggles with social pragmatics a lot and has mild anxiety.

He takes part in a social skills group at his school that has helped immensely. There he sits with other kids with similar but not the same issues and the school psych and play games, eat lunch, etc.

I would reach out to your school and see if they offer something similar.

[sonrisa]

Apr 4, 2023 13:27:57 GMT -5 mrsukyankee said:

Calm Kids

It may not be a perfect help, but every parent I suggested this to with an impulsive kid, found this book helpful to use. I'm guessing it's in the US as well.

I just ordered it from the library

[raleighnc]

My daughter has lots of the same verbal issues. When she started meds for ADHD, I immediately knew they were working because we had 48 straight hours without her saying anything mean to me and her sister. It's literally the only symptom of impulsivity and hyperactivity that she exhibits. She also has anxiety, so she showed even more improvement when we started treating that as well (meds and therapy). We also did some group classes for social communication skills because she seems to have social pragmatic communication disorder, and that helped a ton because she could see communication struggles in the other kids (who mostly had ASD) that she couldn't recognize in herself (using appropriate tone, taking turns speaking).

If your daughter has been diagnosed with OCD (which is generally considered a severe form of anxiety), I would try to find a psychiatrist to treat her if your pedi won't. Often therapy isn't enough and a combination is most helpful. My daughter started on Lexapro at 10. Most doctors will balance the damage to their mental health and self esteem with any downsides of medication (which we have not personally experienced, thankfully). I promise you that she is probably miserable and frustrated when she thinks about her social interactions and how people react to her. I know my DD was.

But the first thing to do is get an evaluation from your pedi, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, or another provider to determine what exactly you are dealing with. They can absolutely treat multiple conditions (and something like 30% of kids with ADHD have a comorbidity like anxiety), but you want to be treating the right things. If she is on the ASD spectrum as well, that's something else to address.

[campermom]

You’ve gotten good advice but there’s a great game called Should I or Shouldn’t I that made me think of her when I read your post. It’s pretty cheap on Amazon from what I could remember. Also check out Superflex, the Unthinkable characters, and Social Thinking from Michelle Garcia Winner.