@@ More schools move to 4 day week despite harm

[penguingrrl]

May 10, 2023 15:53:48 GMT -5 yellow23 said:

May 10, 2023 15:40:56 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Am I alone in living in a pay-to-play district? Not at the HS level (which is a separate district from K-8), but our middle school sports are $200/season, as are all extracurricular activities now. So it’s not leveling the playing field, especially since the only way to make a HS team is to have had a lot of private coaching prior to HS…

I’ve never heard of paying for school activities, the schools I went to as a kid and the schools my kids go to all have free activities. The only thing we ever pay for are field trips and anyone that qualifies for free/reduced lunch automatically has theirs paid for and anyone else can contact the principal for help paying.

The advantage to kids that have had private coaching since preschool is an issue where we live now. Even kids that have spent years on travel teams don’t make school teams because it’s so competitive and schools are large. However, I grew up in a very rural area and no one had private coaches and sports were free so it was a pretty level playing field. A lot of kids that otherwise wouldn’t have been able to afford college (I lived in an area with a lot of poverty) got sports scholarships to junior colleges or small 4 year colleges. Having access to school sports can really help some kids.

Our district brought in pay-to-play a few years ago because of budget issues, all of these things were free when I was a kid. It sucks and became very expensive for us as my kid was involved in a lot prior to them charging and we didn’t feel right denying the kid things they were used to for their 8th grade year (school play, band, orchestra, science league, and something else).

I’ll admit, I don’t personally know anyone who got a sports scholarship, so I’ve always perceived them as a super unlikely way to pay for school (and usually only earned based on years of expensive leagues and private lessons), but I’m glad to hear your experience is different and you know folks who were able to use them as intended (to help gain access to folks who otherwise couldn’t afford school).

[yellow23]

May 10, 2023 15:48:58 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

May 10, 2023 14:31:51 GMT -5 yellow23 said:

Two of my cousins work in year round schools. The breaks rotate so the school is always open (except a few weeks in the summer when everyone is off) with 2/3 of the kids/teachers there at a time. The district only does it for elementary because it interferes with sports once they hit middle school. They would either only have 2/3 of the players at a time or the kids on the team would never be able to have a true break because they would have to be available for daily practices/games during the season. If the whole school closed for 3 weeks, they would have to find other schools with the same schedule to compete against in sports.

With only elementary being year round, many parents never have all their kids on break at the same time (except those few weeks in July). My aunts and uncles hated this when my cousins were in school in this same district. Teachers also have a problem when their kids are in a different level of school with completely different breaks. My cousins husband teaches high school in the same district, but his kids are in elementary so he has to work during most of their school breaks.

I love the idea of year round school, but I can see how it would be difficult for sports teams, bands, drama, etc. to have three week breaks several times a year. The way to fix that is have middle and high schools on a typical schedule, but I really wouldn’t want my younger kids to be on a different break schedule than my oldest.

I’ve decided that I don’t think there is a perfect way to schedule schools.

That’s definitely an excuse. Sports could definitely continue, might just look a little different. I played 3 varsity sports in high school. In the fall we started practice before school started. In the spring we would have practice during spring break. So yeah sports could be accommodated. The breaks during the year aren’t months long.

In general people just don’t like change or to reimagine things.

But really I was just wondering what specific research says about year round school.

I apologize, I wasn’t trying to make excuses.

[Jalapeñomel]

May 10, 2023 15:48:58 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

May 10, 2023 14:31:51 GMT -5 yellow23 said:

Two of my cousins work in year round schools. The breaks rotate so the school is always open (except a few weeks in the summer when everyone is off) with 2/3 of the kids/teachers there at a time. The district only does it for elementary because it interferes with sports once they hit middle school. They would either only have 2/3 of the players at a time or the kids on the team would never be able to have a true break because they would have to be available for daily practices/games during the season. If the whole school closed for 3 weeks, they would have to find other schools with the same schedule to compete against in sports.

With only elementary being year round, many parents never have all their kids on break at the same time (except those few weeks in July). My aunts and uncles hated this when my cousins were in school in this same district. Teachers also have a problem when their kids are in a different level of school with completely different breaks. My cousins husband teaches high school in the same district, but his kids are in elementary so he has to work during most of their school breaks.

I love the idea of year round school, but I can see how it would be difficult for sports teams, bands, drama, etc. to have three week breaks several times a year. The way to fix that is have middle and high schools on a typical schedule, but I really wouldn’t want my younger kids to be on a different break schedule than my oldest.

I’ve decided that I don’t think there is a perfect way to schedule schools.

That’s definitely an excuse. Sports could definitely continue, might just look a little different. I played 3 varsity sports in high school. In the fall we started practice before school started. In the spring we would have practice during spring break. So yeah sports could be accommodated. The breaks during the year aren’t months long.

In general people just don’t like change or to reimagine things.

But really I was just wondering what specific research says about year round school.

Here’s some info (not linking the US News and World report one because it’s a shit site lol):

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6922050/

www.edweek.org/leadership/is-it-time-to-reconsider-the-year-round-school-schedule/2020/06

I just finished reading this one:

sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R43588.pdf

[pixy0stix]

There's a lot of anecdotes being thrown around - anyone have links? Studies? Opinion pieces? There is exactly one link in this 3 page thread.

ETA: Jalapeñomel posted as I was posting. Thank you for posting links!

[StrawberryBlondie]

May 10, 2023 14:37:24 GMT -5 mpm said:

May 10, 2023 14:31:51 GMT -5 yellow23 said:

Two of my cousins work in year round schools. The breaks rotate so the school is always open (except a few weeks in the summer when everyone is off) with 2/3 of the kids/teachers there at a time. The district only does it for elementary because it interferes with sports once they hit middle school. They would either only have 2/3 of the players at a time or the kids on the team would never be able to have a true break because they would have to be available for daily practices/games during the season. If the whole school closed for 3 weeks, they would have to find other schools with the same schedule to compete against in sports.

With only elementary being year round, many parents never have all their kids on break at the same time (except those few weeks in July). My aunts and uncles hated this when my cousins were in school in this same district. Teachers also have a problem when their kids are in a different level of school with completely different breaks. My cousins husband teaches high school in the same district, but his kids are in elementary so he has to work during most of their school breaks.

I love the idea of year round school, but I can see how it would be difficult for sports teams, bands, drama, etc. to have three week breaks several times a year. The way to fix that is have middle and high schools on a typical schedule, but I really wouldn’t want my younger kids to be on a different break schedule than my oldest.

I’ve decided that I don’t think there is a perfect way to schedule schools.

Un-American opinion: There’s no reason sports need to be connected to schools. Problem solved. Year-round school for everyone.

School sports are usually more accessible, at least cost-wise.

I mean, I agree with you on at least a philosophical level, but there isn't a school out there charging $400/month/kid for the swim team, for example.

[mpm]

May 10, 2023 18:37:10 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

May 10, 2023 14:37:24 GMT -5 mpm said:

Un-American opinion: There’s no reason sports need to be connected to schools. Problem solved. Year-round school for everyone.

School sports are usually more accessible, at least cost-wise.

I mean, I agree with you on at least a philosophical level, but there isn't a school out there charging $400/month/kid for the swim team, for example.

Are you sure? When I was in public school marching band in the late 90s, it cost over a thousand dollars a student, not counting the instrument. There were grants kids could apply for and fundraising, but school activities are not always cheap.

[StrawberryBlondie]

May 10, 2023 18:51:01 GMT -5 mpm said:

May 10, 2023 18:37:10 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

School sports are usually more accessible, at least cost-wise.

I mean, I agree with you on at least a philosophical level, but there isn't a school out there charging $400/month/kid for the swim team, for example.

Are you sure? When I was in public school marching band in the late 90s, it cost over a thousand dollars a student, not counting the instrument. There were grants kids could apply for and fundraising, but school activities are not always cheap.

Yes, I'm confident that school sports aren't as expensive as private clubs.


I'm not saying school sports aren't possibly costly, but using my swim team example, if there's a school out there that charges a fee of nearly $5k for a participation fee, I'd be shocked.

[mpm]

May 10, 2023 18:56:19 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

May 10, 2023 18:51:01 GMT -5 mpm said:

Are you sure? When I was in public school marching band in the late 90s, it cost over a thousand dollars a student, not counting the instrument. There were grants kids could apply for and fundraising, but school activities are not always cheap.

Yes, I'm confident that school sports aren't as expensive as private clubs.


I'm not saying school sports aren't possibly costly, but using my swim team example, if there's a school out there that charges a few of nearly $5k for a participation fee, I'd be shocked.

IME, most schools don’t even have swim teams so I’m not sure that’s a very equitable result either.

[StrawberryBlondie]

May 10, 2023 19:11:00 GMT -5 mpm said:

May 10, 2023 18:56:19 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Yes, I'm confident that school sports aren't as expensive as private clubs.


I'm not saying school sports aren't possibly costly, but using my swim team example, if there's a school out there that charges a few of nearly $5k for a participation fee, I'd be shocked.

IME, most schools don’t even have swim teams so I’m not sure that’s a very equitable result either.

I picked that as an example because 1. I'm actually familiar with the costs of both in my area, and 2. It's a sport basically every school around here has.

Maybe it's regional. 🤷‍♀️

[mae141]

I know this thread is moving to school sports now, but I'm curious about how they can determine that 4 day weeks are bad. If they are moving to 4 day weeks because they can't get teachers and are trying to cut costs, maybe there are other reasons that kids aren't doing as well. Maybe it's not the 4 day week that's the problem.

[curbsideprophet]

May 10, 2023 14:56:15 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Well, if the whole state went to the same approximate schedule, that would help with sports and all the kids/teachers being on the same schedule.
If we just went shorter days, elementary starts before high school, affordable before/after care, and longer breaks throughout the year (fall break, Tgiving, Xmas, spring break, easter break, etc.) we could shorten the summer to 4-6 weeks...

It is definitely doable. My elementary aged child goes to a public school with an extended schedule. They go an extra 20 days a year. It is three weeks extra in Aug and a week later in June. They end up with about 7 weeks over the summer. The major breaks (spring break, winter holiday) overlap with the traditional schedule. Other teacher work days/breaks sometimes overlap with the traditional schedule, sometimes they don’t, it varies from year to year.

I don’t see any reason everyone could not go to the extended schedule. Then sports could adjust as needed.

[taratru]

May 10, 2023 16:13:49 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

There's a lot of anecdotes being thrown around - anyone have links? Studies? Opinion pieces? There is exactly one link in this 3 page thread.

ETA: Jalapeñomel posted as I was posting. Thank you for posting links!

But anecdotes are all I've got! 😂😂😂

[isabel]

May 9, 2023 22:25:22 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

A lot of districts here also have 4.5 day weeks. I never really thought about why. (Aftercare just starts earlier. For older kids, it allows them to do earlier activities.)

A big issue in my town is old people voting against school funding. I think livinitup is spot on about voters wanting to push costs onto parents rather than raise taxes. Sometimes it seems like we vote in every tax increase except schools.

The tax funding is why the school near Denver that's mentioned in the article is shifting to four-day weeks. Voters didn't pass a mill levy to fund the school, so they had to find a way to cut back.

We used to live in Douglas County, which is nearby this district. It's heavily conservative. Shortly before we moved in 2019, there was a mill levy vote that, had it not passed, would have resulted in dropping one day a week of instruction. It did pass, but it was very narrow, like 52% to 48% or something like that. We had already decided to move, but that really sealed the deal for me. The fact that so many parents in the district were willing to vote against that blew my mind.

[fumbalina]

I could not find any articles to post that were not simply how can parents work.

I have never been in a community that had regular 9-5 type jobs. Most parents I know already have to cobble something together because they don't have regular hours. This feels like a how dare we inconvenience white collar workers.

This article read as all change is bad. It did not convince me that we should not try this. I am having trouble formulating a coherent thought, but in short I am ready for new solutions.

[wanderingback]

May 10, 2023 23:27:56 GMT -5 fumbalina said:

I could not find any articles to post that were not simply how can parents work.

I have never been in a community that had regular 9-5 type jobs. Most parents I know already have to cobble something together because they don't have regular hours. This feels like a how dare we inconvenience white collar workers.

This article read as all change is bad. It did not convince me that we should not try this. I am having trouble formulating a coherent thought, but in short I am ready for new solutions.

What problems for helping kids does a 4 day school week solve? I read the article in the OP and the research doesn’t seem to show it’s the best solution. What articles did you read that were more positive about a 4 day school week?

[Jalapeñomel]

Some more links on 4 day school days:

www.axios.com/2023/05/08/4-day-school-week-study

www.edweek.org/leadership/four-studies-to-know-on-four-day-school-weeks/2023/02

[imimahoney]

May 10, 2023 15:40:56 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Am I alone in living in a pay-to-play district? …

Nope. Where I teach (HS north of Boston) has a user fee for any sport or large-scale club such as drama.

Most districts around here have a user fee but ours is very large in comparison because my town chooses not to fund the clubs/teams.

The amount is capped per family and if a student qualifies for free or reduced lunch then they do the have to pay.

Personally, I would hate for my kids to attend a year round school. My children go to Jewish sleep-away camp and that is very important to our family but I completely understand why others would want year round schooling.

[Jalapeñomel]

May 11, 2023 7:02:41 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

May 10, 2023 15:40:56 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Am I alone in living in a pay-to-play district? …

Nope. Where I teach (HS north of Boston) has a user fee for any sport or large-scale club such as drama.

Most districts around here have a user fee but ours is very large in comparison because my town chooses not to fund the clubs/teams.

The amount is capped per family and if a student qualifies for free or reduced lunch then they do the have to pay.

Personally, I would hate for my kids to attend a year round school. My children go to Jewish sleep-away camp and that is very important to our family but I completely understand why others would want year round schooling.

If all schools went year round, these camps would adjust according. They certainly would not want to lose their income! 

[karinothing]

May 11, 2023 7:02:41 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

May 10, 2023 15:40:56 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Am I alone in living in a pay-to-play district? …

Nope. Where I teach (HS north of Boston) has a user fee for any sport or large-scale club such as drama.

Most districts around here have a user fee but ours is very large in comparison because my town chooses not to fund the clubs/teams.

The amount is capped per family and if a student qualifies for free or reduced lunch then they do the have to pay.

Personally, I would hate for my kids to attend a year round school. My children go to Jewish sleep-away camp and that is very important to our family but I completely understand why others would want year round schooling.

Don't they still get 6 weeks off in summer? Is that not enough time for sleep away camp? I mean I know it might be longer now but 6 weeks sounds like a good chunk of time still. 

[jeaniebueller]

May 10, 2023 18:51:01 GMT -5 mpm said:

May 10, 2023 18:37:10 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

School sports are usually more accessible, at least cost-wise.

I mean, I agree with you on at least a philosophical level, but there isn't a school out there charging $400/month/kid for the swim team, for example.

Are you sure? When I was in public school marching band in the late 90s, it cost over a thousand dollars a student, not counting the instrument. There were grants kids could apply for and fundraising, but school activities are not always cheap.

You paid $1000 to participate in marching band? I went to a upper middle class district in the 90s and we didn't pay, granted the boosters fundraised for our expenses. Right now, the cost to rent my kid's instrument each month is all we regularly pay

[pixy0stix]

ETA: This is a better link that I originally posted - www.aspenprojectplay.org/state-of-play-2022/costs-to-play-trends

Their summary states - The average family pays $883 annually in one child’s primary sport.



Original post:

Average cost of a lot of average high school sports aggregated in 2019 - educounting.com/high-school-sports/#:~:text=In%202019%2C%20the%20average%20American,and%20travel%20costs%20(%24196).

Main takeaway - In 2019, the average American family spent around $700 per year on one child’s participation in high school sports, a Statista survey reveals. This figure covers equipment expenses (an estimated $144) and travel costs ($196).

 

[mpm]

May 11, 2023 10:00:17 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

May 10, 2023 18:51:01 GMT -5 mpm said:

Are you sure? When I was in public school marching band in the late 90s, it cost over a thousand dollars a student, not counting the instrument. There were grants kids could apply for and fundraising, but school activities are not always cheap.

You paid $1000 to participate in marching band? I went to an upper middle class district in the 90s and we didn't pay, granted the boosters fundraised for our expenses. Right now, the cost to rent my kid's instrument each month is all we regularly pay

I grew up in a very poor district.

[pixy0stix]

Band costs - in searching it's harder to quantify. If your kid is just in band during school hours the cost is low. If they participate in marching band/competitions the costs are higher especially if you factor in travel, band camp, special lessons, competition fees, uniform fees, you buy the instrument, etc. It's weird that there's no real "this is the average" to be found on the internet because it's so subjective to school/area and intensity of the program.

[fortnightlily]

How many of you live in areas where schools have a February break? We have summer break from mid-June to last week of August/first week of September. Then Christmas through New Years (amounts to more days depending on whether those fall on weekends) and then Spring Break the week before Easter (sometimes we get the Friday before and Monday after tacked on, depending on if there haven't been snow days).

I'm jealous of areas that also get a week in February.

[penguingrrl]

May 11, 2023 14:13:00 GMT -5 fortnightlily said:

How many of you live in areas where schools have a February break? We have summer break from mid-June to last week of August/first week of September. Then Christmas and New Years (depending on whether those fall on weekends) and then Spring Break the week before Easter (sometimes we get the Friday before and Monday after tacked on, depending on if there haven't been snow days).

I'm jealous of areas that also get a week in February.

We did when I was a kid, now we only get a long weekend. I believe it changed when they began being off for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur but I guess they didn’t want to expand the year in June, so instead we lost that week off and it’s now a long weekend (which is stupid). Our only full weeks off all year are December-January (exactly 5 days most years) and spring break (1 week plus one day).

It’s really unbalanced and exhausting followed by a long boring summer from mid June until after Labor Day.

[abs]

May 11, 2023 14:13:00 GMT -5 fortnightlily said:

How many of you live in areas where schools have a February break? We have summer break from mid-June to last week of August/first week of September. Then Christmas and New Years (depending on whether those fall on weekends) and then Spring Break the week before Easter (sometimes we get the Friday before and Monday after tacked on, depending on if there haven't been snow days).

I'm jealous of areas that also get a week in February.

Our district started an October break and February break this year. 10 week summer instead of 11.5. I love it! DD loves it. Those mental breaks are huge.

They are sticking with it next year. We are the only district that does it though so makes it hard on the high schoolers in activities that don’t really get the October break.

[fortnightlily]

May 11, 2023 14:20:50 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

May 11, 2023 14:13:00 GMT -5 fortnightlily said:

How many of you live in areas where schools have a February break? We have summer break from mid-June to last week of August/first week of September. Then Christmas and New Years (depending on whether those fall on weekends) and then Spring Break the week before Easter (sometimes we get the Friday before and Monday after tacked on, depending on if there haven't been snow days).

I'm jealous of areas that also get a week in February.

We did when I was a kid, now we only get a long weekend. I believe it changed when they began being off for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur but I guess they didn’t want to expand the year in June, so instead we lost that week off and it’s now a long weekend (which is stupid). Our only full weeks off all year are December-January (exactly 5 days most years) and spring break (1 week plus one day).

It’s really unbalanced and exhausting followed by a long boring summer from mid June until after Labor Day.

Yeah, even when I was growing up in this same area we had off for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur and never a February break (just President's Day). 

[scm1011]

Most everywhere in New England gets Feb & April breaks.

[Jalapeñomel]

May 11, 2023 14:13:00 GMT -5 fortnightlily said:

How many of you live in areas where schools have a February break? We have summer break from mid-June to last week of August/first week of September. Then Christmas through New Years (amounts to more days depending on whether those fall on weekends) and then Spring Break the week before Easter (sometimes we get the Friday before and Monday after tacked on, depending on if there haven't been snow days).

I'm jealous of areas that also get a week in February.

Greater NYC area has this break (except my son lol).

We also get Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Juneteenth, Chinese New Year, and Eid (all depending on where it lands in the calendar—plus the typical Christian holidays).

[neverfstop]

This school year, we have 4-day weekend most months to coincide with a federal holidays. We get a week at Thanksgiving & then a 1-week spring break in March. We had about a week before Christmas & went back around 1/3 (1/2 was a teacher workday). School started Aug 22 and ends just before Memorial Day.

Next year, we we start a week later in August, have a week AFTER new years (in January off...WTF?), we end the Friday AFTER Memorial Day, and not many 4-day weekends. It's a terrible schedule....