(ETA: Damaging) Wildfires in Hawaii, too :(

[pixy0stix]

Reading WaPo's coverage this morning, and it was all about the tourists. Yeah, I'm so sad about their vacations, but also people lost their homes so a little perspective would have been nice.

[abs]

Aug 10, 2023 8:25:51 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Reading WaPo's coverage this morning, and it was all about the tourists. Yeah, I'm so sad about their vacations, but also people lost their homes so a little perspective would have been nice.

Not to mention the loss of life. At least 36 so far. Just catastrophic.

[Scout'sHonor]

A good list of places to donate to: www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/08/09/want-help-those-devastated-by-maui-wildfires-heres-how/?mibextid=Zxz2cZ&fbclid=IwAR3BtWHgxdYotQXkhd-UoRok34DBsZgzlr40tiljcryWUgrlumYnhkdZKU0#ll4e8ogsr0ztwv3z8q

[starlily]

This is the first article I've come across that talks more about the cultural & historic significance of Lahaina and less about it as merely a tourist destination: www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/wildfire-decimates-lahaina-capital-hawaiian-kingdom-rcna99098

[pinkdutchtulips]

The footage I've seen of the destruction to Lahaina (J and I took the kids there in 2/21) reminds of the same destruction from the Camp fire that leveled the town of Paradise in Nor Cal. So sad!

[devonpow]

Lahaina is one of my favorite places on earth - I’m so devasted by this. I just read that the banyan tree might survive though - it’s partly burned but apparently banyan trees are pretty hardy.

It’s such a hard situation with tourism. Yes, tourists need to leave the area now. Yes, the focus needs to be on the Hawaiians, the cultural impact/loss of losing most of Lahaina etc. But I read a statistic that $4 of every $5 generated on Maui comes from tourism. Losing tourism can also be a significant hardship.

DH and I are longtime supporters of the Maui Food Bank and it’s a great organization to donate to : mauifoodbank.org/

[wawa]

Aug 10, 2023 14:04:25 GMT -5 devonpow said:

Lahaina is one of my favorite places on earth - I’m so devasted by this. I just read that the banyan tree might survive though - it’s partly burned but apparently banyan trees are pretty hardy.

It’s such a hard situation with tourism. Yes, tourists need to leave the area now. Yes, the focus needs to be on the Hawaiians, the cultural impact/loss of losing most of Lahaina etc. But I read a statistic that $4 of every $5 generated on Maui comes from tourism. Losing tourism can also be a significant hardship.

DH and I are longtime supporters of the Maui Food Bank and it’s a great organization to donate to : mauifoodbank.org/

But I think the question that the folks telling tourists to stay home want us to ask is how much of those $4 goes to native or even local non-native hawaiians vs. off-island corporations, investors and real estate owners?  
Tourism based jobs for local and native Hawaiians are often not jobs that pay a living wage.  
I've seen nuance in the argument for sure, like - do visit maybe, but be sustainable (to the extent you can considering the flight...), make sure your money is going to locals/small business, be respectful, leave no trace -  but the counterpoint is a lot more complicated than "but it's your whole economy!"  

Like yep, it is.  But not by choice!  So then what?

[goldengirlz]

Aug 10, 2023 14:04:25 GMT -5 devonpow said:

Lahaina is one of my favorite places on earth - I’m so devasted by this. I just read that the banyan tree might survive though - it’s partly burned but apparently banyan trees are pretty hardy.

It’s such a hard situation with tourism. Yes, tourists need to leave the area now. Yes, the focus needs to be on the Hawaiians, the cultural impact/loss of losing most of Lahaina etc. But I read a statistic that $4 of every $5 generated on Maui comes from tourism. Losing tourism can also be a significant hardship.

DH and I are longtime supporters of the Maui Food Bank and it’s a great organization to donate to : mauifoodbank.org/

Most of that tourism money trickles down to native communities only indirectly, if at all. While a third of native Hawaiians do work in tourism, they’re disproportionately in low-wage jobs. Meanwhile, Hawaiian culture is white washed and commoditized while few indigenous people benefit to the same degree as wealthy corporations.

I didn’t want to derail the discussion too much above, but when we chatted with native Hawaiians during one of our last visits there (pre-covid), we heard mostly anger directed at mainlanders. Every time we’re there, I’ve been increasingly sad and uncomfortable to see how exploitive the tourism industry is.

[devonpow]

I get it that tourism and Hawaii being reliant on tourism isn’t great, and the indigenous Hawaiian people rarely benefit greatly. But I don’t know how to solve that problem near term and worry that the loss of tourism will exacerbate issues in the near term. I don’t know what the solution is though

[devonpow]

Also I think tourism and how it affects different places is a needed and interesting conversation (again that I don’t know the answer to). We were just in Italy and as we all know it was CROWDED and asshole tourists are doing things like carving their names in the Colisseum. We were talking to a lot of people there and discussing it - all kind of simultaneously complained and bemoaned it but also said how necessary it was, and how they were also grateful in a way since the shut downs hit Italian tourism very hard initially. How can we help places shift an economic model to help them? Like in Maui if it’s true $4 out of every $5 is generated by tourism, just stopping going obviously isn’t going to help them economically. How can the state/other countries and cities/ work to shift this model?

[tacokick]

Aug 10, 2023 15:58:23 GMT -5 devonpow said:

Also I think tourism and how it affects different places is a needed and interesting conversation (again that I don’t know the answer to). We were just in Italy and as we all know it was CROWDED and asshole tourists are doing things like carving their names in the Colisseum. We were talking to a lot of people there and discussing it - all kind of simultaneously complained and bemoaned it but also said how necessary it was, and how they were also grateful in a way since the shut downs hit Italian tourism very hard initially. How can we help places shift an economic model to help them? Like in Maui if it’s true $4 out of every $5 is generated by tourism, just stopping going obviously isn’t going to help them economically. How can the state/other countries and cities/ work to shift this model?

I think the hope now for Maui is that they will provide incentives for Hawaiians to rebuild and start new businesses to serve themselves over helping international conglomerates rebuild tourist attractions.

One thing that residents of Maui have been asking for years now is limits on how many tourists are allowed to fly in each year and restrictions on people having rental or seasonal properties on the island which takes away from the housing stock for people who live there year round and drives up prices. Tourism was already overwhelming to the island and in the last few years really sky rocketed. There isn’t enough resources (like literal water) to support this so something has to change.

[gretchenindisguise]

Aug 10, 2023 14:04:25 GMT -5 devonpow said:

Lahaina is one of my favorite places on earth - I’m so devasted by this. I just read that the banyan tree might survive though - it’s partly burned but apparently banyan trees are pretty hardy.

It’s such a hard situation with tourism. Yes, tourists need to leave the area now. Yes, the focus needs to be on the Hawaiians, the cultural impact/loss of losing most of Lahaina etc. But I read a statistic that $4 of every $5 generated on Maui comes from tourism. Losing tourism can also be a significant hardship.

DH and I are longtime supporters of the Maui Food Bank and it’s a great organization to donate to : mauifoodbank.org/

Someone on TikTok (I know...), said only 21% of their economy was tourism dollars. I was surprised by that number and wanted to look into it more and what I've found has been reported between 20-25%: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Hawaii Nothing to sneeze at for sure but not 80% either as the $4 of every $5 stat would like us to believe.

I know it's more complicated- but saying we need to go to Hawaii for tourism feels very white savior-y to me. They were doing fine before we took them over.

[pixy0stix]

Aug 10, 2023 16:10:42 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Aug 10, 2023 15:58:23 GMT -5 devonpow said:

Also I think tourism and how it affects different places is a needed and interesting conversation (again that I don’t know the answer to). We were just in Italy and as we all know it was CROWDED and asshole tourists are doing things like carving their names in the Colisseum. We were talking to a lot of people there and discussing it - all kind of simultaneously complained and bemoaned it but also said how necessary it was, and how they were also grateful in a way since the shut downs hit Italian tourism very hard initially. How can we help places shift an economic model to help them? Like in Maui if it’s true $4 out of every $5 is generated by tourism, just stopping going obviously isn’t going to help them economically. How can the state/other countries and cities/ work to shift this model?

I think the hope now for Maui is that they will provide incentives for Hawaiians to rebuild and start new businesses to serve themselves over helping international conglomerates rebuild tourist attractions.

One thing that residents of Maui have been asking for years now is limits on how many tourists are allowed to fly in each year and restrictions on people having rental or seasonal properties on the island which takes away from the housing stock for people who live there year round and drives up prices. Tourism was already overwhelming to the island and in the last few years really sky rocketed. There isn’t enough resources (like literal water) to support this so something has to change.

Right. Besides everything that is happening right now, there are not enough natural resources to support the level of tourism to these areas. 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, end stage capitalism is fucking wild. No one needs this level of tourism to support shit.

[redheadk]

Aug 10, 2023 14:47:25 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Aug 10, 2023 14:04:25 GMT -5 devonpow said:

Lahaina is one of my favorite places on earth - I’m so devasted by this. I just read that the banyan tree might survive though - it’s partly burned but apparently banyan trees are pretty hardy.

It’s such a hard situation with tourism. Yes, tourists need to leave the area now. Yes, the focus needs to be on the Hawaiians, the cultural impact/loss of losing most of Lahaina etc. But I read a statistic that $4 of every $5 generated on Maui comes from tourism. Losing tourism can also be a significant hardship.

DH and I are longtime supporters of the Maui Food Bank and it’s a great organization to donate to : mauifoodbank.org/

Most of that tourism money trickles down to native communities only indirectly, if at all. While a third of native Hawaiians do work in tourism, they’re disproportionately in low-wage jobs. Meanwhile, Hawaiian culture is white washed and commoditized while few indigenous people benefit to the same degree as wealthy corporations.

I didn’t want to derail the discussion too much above, but when we chatted with native Hawaiians during one of our last visits there (pre-covid), we heard mostly anger directed at mainlanders. Every time we’re there, I’ve been increasingly sad and uncomfortable to see how exploitive the tourism industry is.

It is a really sad issue. The only family DH has left in Hawaii is either elderly or has a community service job (lots of police officers and detectives). Most of the "younger" family members, my MIL's generation and younger, have moved to the mainland for job opportunities and for COL. 

I'm so heartbroken for what the people of Maui are now dealing with and will continue to face as they recover from this. I don't know what the answer is regarding tourism but now is definitely not the time to visit Maui. 

[gretchenindisguise]

mauiunitedway.org/

This is the organization Top Chef OG Lee Anne Wong is recommending (she lost her restaurant ).

[basilosaurus]

There are options for residents to evacuate through southwest even with pets.

I'd like to c&p but it's not working.

Southwest doesn't usually allow pets. They're allowing for $1.

[sonrisa]

The most wrenching photos are the ones showing burned out cars on the waterfront road - not parked, but lined up in the lanes, looking like they were caught while fleeing.

apnews.com/article/live-updates-maui-fire-hawaii-wildfire-162a9fcdefe648d6bcd6557af70d894f

The current 55 person death toll only includes people found outside. They haven’t been able to search buildings

[nothingcontroversial]

Aug 10, 2023 14:04:25 GMT -5 devonpow said:

La But I read a statistic that $4 of every $5 generated on Maui comes from tourism. Losing tourism can also be a significant hardship.

Yeah, people are posting that statistic all over Reddit and other people are challenging the source of it. 

[devonpow]

Aug 11, 2023 6:24:48 GMT -5 nothingcontroversial said:

Aug 10, 2023 14:04:25 GMT -5 devonpow said:

La But I read a statistic that $4 of every $5 generated on Maui comes from tourism. Losing tourism can also be a significant hardship.

Yeah, people are posting that statistic all over Reddit and other people are challenging the source of it. 

I read it in the NYTimes, but admit I did not follow up and look for verification beyond that. But regardless, it still is a big percentage of their economy. People seem to think I’m saying “let’s go to Hawaii! Tourism is its savior!”. And I’m saying we need to figure out how to help Hawaii not need to rely on tourism, but I don’t know how to do that. If we all (Royal we) just literally stop going suddenly it will severely hurt their economy - that’s not a solution. So what is? How can Hawaii pivot a large portion of their economy to something else? DH and I have supported some non profits, mainly the Maui food bank, for years. We have donated to the Hawaii Community Foundation in regards to this particular tragedy. These are short terms things. I’m speaking more to what a PP said of potential limits to numbers of tourists etc, but then also what does Hawaii (or Italy or Greece or or or) build economically instead to replace those funds? Again I don’t know the answer I just think it’s a good and interesting conversation. I’ve read so much about the perils of over tourism (in many places) but few give good explanations or ideas of how to solve the economic ramifications of shifting to a better and more limited system of responsible tourism.

My family works very closely in the tourism industry (in a Caribbean country) and seeing the effects of the Covid shut downs really helped show clearly some short term economic devastation for people who relied on the resorts and tourists for their jobs. Obviously Covid shut downs are an extreme example., but even when a large resort closes, or a hurricane comes through, or one of so many things that affect tourism there’s a lot of economic pain. I’m not saying the solution is hooray let’s send more tourists. Just that there are complex needs that need to be taken care of.

[basilosaurus]

A local friend posted this.

time.com/6304099/maui-hawaii-wildfires-how-to-help/?fbclid=IwAR338Agq_csBImc5VPhWrOGLI9fmIbmOQIDjHIwxJH9mQe4RMKaQBioURhM

I don't know how to address tourism with its pros and cons, and I grew up in a heavily tourist funded area. Without tourism there were serious booms and busts. If a sponge blight or palm tree virus came, you'd have nothing potentially for years. Tourism moderates that. But, yes, it has obvious costs, too.

[sonrisa]

Aug 11, 2023 12:00:34 GMT -5 devonpow said:

And I’m saying we need to figure out how to help Hawaii not need to rely on tourism, but I don’t know how to do that. If we all (Royal we) just literally stop going suddenly it will severely hurt their economy - that’s not a solution.

With all due respect ‘we’ don’t need to figure anything out. We need to listen. The people of Hawaii have been asking for changes for a long time. There will be even stronger needs now. We need to listen and respect that, not substitute our own assumptions and opinions.

[Bad Dingo]

Maybe the venture capitalists and big hotel corporations would close down (wishful thinking), the land could go back to people who should rightfully own it. In this world of remote work people could be trained for so many careers and not be forced to work in the service industry.

[gemini79]

There is a MASSIVE difference between being a slave to tourism on your own land and owning the land and controlling the way tourism works on said land.

[pixy0stix]

23% of Hawaii's income comes from tourism. Which, while significant, leaves a lot of room to pivot. www.hawaiipublicradio.org/business-news/2020-04-10/experts-77-of-hawaiis-economy-isnt-tourism-policymakers-can-take-steps-to-reopen-it

[bugandbibs]

From talks with my family who live in HI the issue with tourism dollars tend to go back to mainland corporations. Think Enterprise, Hilton, Disney, etc. Their employees could replace their income in other ways if local businesses could develop and thrive. This is all entangled with the very real fact that they were colonized and continue to be harmed by the loss of their land/rights.

The devastation is heartbreaking and I’m at a loss for how people will be made whole without more loss or being taken advantage of.

[litebright]

This is the kind of disaster where I would usually find Twitter to be useful, because local people posting things directly is faster than newsfolk can gather/vet info.

But I've checked a couple of times and it's such a cesspool now that any search related to Maui gives you an overwhelming stream of conspiracies -- it was a false flag, a "directed energy" attack from China, videos on "what REALLY happened", etc., etc. The elevation of this shit without any moderation at all is really awful.

[konapoppy]

Aug 13, 2023 18:13:46 GMT -5 litebright said:

This is the kind of disaster where I would usually find Twitter to be useful, because local people posting things directly is faster than newsfolk can gather/vet info.

But I've checked a couple of times and it's such a cesspool now that any search related to Maui gives you an overwhelming stream of conspiracies -- it was a false flag, a "directed energy" attack from China, videos on "what REALLY happened", etc., etc. The elevation of this shit without any moderation at all is really awful.

This is happening in the instagram comments too. It is insane.

[bugandbibs]

Aug 13, 2023 18:13:46 GMT -5 litebright said:

This is the kind of disaster where I would usually find Twitter to be useful, because local people posting things directly is faster than newsfolk can gather/vet info.

But I've checked a couple of times and it's such a cesspool now that any search related to Maui gives you an overwhelming stream of conspiracies -- it was a false flag, a "directed energy" attack from China, videos on "what REALLY happened", etc., etc. The elevation of this shit without any moderation at all is really awful.

Tik Tok has been a much better source of local information in this instance.

[Jalapeñomel]

Aug 13, 2023 20:24:27 GMT -5 bugandbibs said:

Aug 13, 2023 18:13:46 GMT -5 litebright said:

This is the kind of disaster where I would usually find Twitter to be useful, because local people posting things directly is faster than newsfolk can gather/vet info.

But I've checked a couple of times and it's such a cesspool now that any search related to Maui gives you an overwhelming stream of conspiracies -- it was a false flag, a "directed energy" attack from China, videos on "what REALLY happened", etc., etc. The elevation of this shit without any moderation at all is really awful.

Tik Tok has been a much better source of local information in this instance.

I was going also suggest TikTok (I know people here hate it, but it’s really up to date with current events and SM).

[mrspez07]

Aug 13, 2023 18:13:46 GMT -5 litebright said:

This is the kind of disaster where I would usually find Twitter to be useful, because local people posting things directly is faster than newsfolk can gather/vet info.

But I've checked a couple of times and it's such a cesspool now that any search related to Maui gives you an overwhelming stream of conspiracies -- it was a false flag, a "directed energy" attack from China, videos on "what REALLY happened", etc., etc. The elevation of this shit without any moderation at all is really awful.

On the Google news feed in the fact check this morning all 4 of the items are related to debunking the “direct energy weapons” that started the fire. 🙄