(ETA: Damaging) Wildfires in Hawaii, too :(

[litebright]

Like, it's just idiocy. I scrolled past one tweet where the guy was like, "this is total BS! They say this is from hurricane winds, but hurricanes can't cause fires because IT RAINS, so they're obviously lying!!!!!"

There is no room for taking the time or effort to discover that the hurricane itself hundreds of miles away so HI only getting the high winds -- that such a thing is possible, so "winds driven by a hurricane" is a distinct thing from "an actual hurricane on-location." It's just jumping straight from "hurricane = rain" to THEY'RE LYING AND COVERING SOMETHING UP.

[gemini79]

WTF is "Directed energy?" lasers?
Also. Directed energy is wind dumbasses.

[basilosaurus]

Thankfully I've seen none of the idiocy. Having lived in Hawaii, my feed is full of current and former residents linking ways to help. I should probably add the latest suggestions here. A lot is calls for a spare bedroom or empty home stay, but there are ways to donate funds.

One issue someone posted about was limits on per person formula purchases. Hopefully that's now addressed. They tried to purchase something like 10 cans (they come in cans, right? Idk) at Costco but the limit was 2. Others in line stepped up to purchase their limit. Even someone who'd lost everything as of course they were all chatting in line (this was relayed to me third hand, and it admittedly sounds a bit urban legend but also very real ohana). Through the coconut wireless someone got in touch with the franchise owner who claimed he would divert the next shipment to Maui instead of Oahu. That's really hard to believe since infants on Oahu still have needs, but if any of you has formula coupons or excess stash those are likely appreciated.

I think what bums me about Lahaina being hit hard, beyond the obvious, is that's where I preferred to stay (also up country and wailuku), in local small inns and b&b. I didn't like the resort areas of ka'anapali and wailea. I got to know the owners. One sent me Xmas cards for years.

They're the ones that were taken out, and massive corps will swoop in. I think there is room for responsible tourism, and I fear the new vacuum will go the opposite way. Only the big guys will be able to rebuild. That's what I hope they can prevent.

[al dente]

Aug 16, 2023 0:52:05 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

One issue someone posted about was limits on per person formula purchases. Hopefully that's now addressed. They tried to purchase something like 10 cans (they come in cans, right? Idk) at Costco but the limit was 2.

@@@ I mean there's still formula shortages, and Costco still does not regularly have formula (on Oahu anyways).

[al dente]

Government is saying they don't regret not sounding the alarms because they're tsunami alarms so people would've gone towards the fire? So upsetting, Hawaii has the largest outdoor alarm system that gets tested monthly but then isn't used. Death toll is at over 100 with thousands still missing. At least an alarm would've given people a chance.

[pixy0stix]

Aug 16, 2023 20:16:11 GMT -5 al dente said:

Government is saying they don't regret not sounding the alarms because they're tsunami alarms so people would've gone towards the fire? So upsetting, Hawaii has the largest outdoor alarm system that gets tested monthly but then isn't used. Death toll is at over 100 with thousands still missing. At least an alarm would've given people a chance.

I can actually see the reasoning here. If the warnings are only supposed to go off for one specific thing, and they're going off randomly, I don't know how that would have helped the situation.

[pixy0stix]

I honestly don't know what could have been done differently. I think people keep searching for something to blame, but it was just a natural disaster. The authorities had the blaze 100% contained, and then it jumped and "spread like wildfire" isn't just something that people say.

[al dente]

Aug 16, 2023 20:40:13 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Aug 16, 2023 20:16:11 GMT -5 al dente said:

Government is saying they don't regret not sounding the alarms because they're tsunami alarms so people would've gone towards the fire? So upsetting, Hawaii has the largest outdoor alarm system that gets tested monthly but then isn't used. Death toll is at over 100 with thousands still missing. At least an alarm would've given people a chance.

I can actually see the reasoning here. If the warnings are only supposed to go off for one specific thing, and they're going off randomly, I don't know how that would have helped the situation.

granted I'm not local, but I've lived here for close to a decade and never knew the alarms were considered for tsunami only. I have them in my area and am no where close to a tsunami zone, and have always known them as "emergency alert alarms" which I took to encompass all emergencies, not just tsunami.

[pixy0stix]

There's been comparison to the Paradise, CA fire - www.cnn.com/2023/08/16/us/camp-fire-2018-maui-fire-climate/index.html

Which just really highlights that sometimes shit hits the fan and there's not a lot you can do about it.

[basilosaurus]

Aug 16, 2023 20:40:13 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Aug 16, 2023 20:16:11 GMT -5 al dente said:

Government is saying they don't regret not sounding the alarms because they're tsunami alarms so people would've gone towards the fire? So upsetting, Hawaii has the largest outdoor alarm system that gets tested monthly but then isn't used. Death toll is at over 100 with thousands still missing. At least an alarm would've given people a chance.

I can actually see the reasoning here. If the warnings are only supposed to go off for one specific thing, and they're going off randomly, I don't know how that would have helped the situation.

I'm here. I knew the alarms went off at certain times to test it. I also evacuated once due to them going off at unusual times, but I knew it was tsunami evacuation. What else would it be? A fire wasn't even considered. I would have considered either tsunami or malfunction. Not flagration.

[basilosaurus]

Aug 16, 2023 21:02:55 GMT -5 al dente said:

Aug 16, 2023 20:40:13 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I can actually see the reasoning here. If the warnings are only supposed to go off for one specific thing, and they're going off randomly, I don't know how that would have helped the situation.

granted I'm not local, but I've lived here for close to a decade and never knew the alarms were considered for tsunami only. I have them in my area and am no where close to a tsunami zone, and have always known them as "emergency alert alarms" which I took to encompass all emergencies, not just tsunami.

I was once living in Waikiki. Not a local but lived there a few years. Neighbors told me when I first asked that it was tsunami warning. I'd previously lived in a place where it was tornado warning.

I don't know if that was my neighbors or universal, but midday without usgs report,(my first go to to see if there was earthquake or tsunami), I'd probably think it was a test of the system.

[basilosaurus]

Aug 16, 2023 20:12:13 GMT -5 al dente said:

Aug 16, 2023 0:52:05 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

One issue someone posted about was limits on per person formula purchases. Hopefully that's now addressed. They tried to purchase something like 10 cans (they come in cans, right? Idk) at Costco but the limit was 2.

@@@ I mean there's still formula shortages, and Costco still does not regularly have formula (on Oahu anyways).

Yeah that's why I'm dubious about my hearing Costco would divert an entire shipment. Maui isn't necessarily in more need than Oahu, but access to the one Costco might be more difficult and therefore people are asking for that kind of donation

[al dente]

I got curious now, and the hawaii.gov website says "The all-hazard siren system can be used for a variety of both natural and human-caused events; including tsunamis, hurricanes, dam breaches, flooding, wildfires, volcanic eruptions, terrorist threats, hazardous material incidents, and more."
But then a local paper has a quote saying "But in practice, the system is used mainly for tsunami warnings, MEMA Administrator Herman Andaya said, and the Maui Emergency Management Agency didn’t consider them, as Civil Beat reported."

Like I do know it spread incredibly fast, we also had crazy winds. I am just surprised they didn't even consider using it? Like power was out, cell towers were out... What's the point of a large scale, off the grid, solar powered alert system if it's only to alert people of one single incident? Idk. I know hindsight is 20/20 and all, but I think it was a misstep to not even try and warn people when communication was out.

[thejen626]

I live in rural Oregon where we have large wildfires. I had to evacuate in 2020. We frequently get horrible smoke and are often on level 1 evacuation warning in the summer.

On Sunday night at 10:40pm, we were getting into bed and my phone started freaking out screeching. I’ve never heard it make that sound before and I didn’t know how to turn it off. I read “level 3 evacuation GO NOW” and finally figured out how to “clear” the message and stop the loud sound; but then I couldn’t find the message in my phone anymore 😬

As far as I knew there weren’t any fires close by, no smoke smell in the air, etc. I went into Facebook and searched for my county and found the entire message. There was a huge fire that was about 30 miles east of me. I hadn’t heard of the location and had to google. Then I walked outside to see if I could smell smoke.

It was absolutely terrifying for the 2-3 minutes that it took for me to figure out that this level 3 evacuation warning wasn’t actually meant for me.

All this to say… I firmly believe that they should have used the Lahaina warning system. If they would have turned that on, most people would have gone outside of their homes, smelled smoke, maybe seen fires; and then been able to react. But NO WARNING??! I’m appalled and horrified. It’s unfathomable for me.

[basilosaurus]

It wasn't so long ago that the Hawaii alert system accidentally sent a bomb warning. "This is not a drill" in the text. I kind of don't trust the system after that.

I did evacuate for a tsunami once. In addition to the sirens going off at night (tests are noon first Friday I think) I had multiple calls from friends inland offering their places before I even thought about leaving. This must have been so fast that not even the coconut wireless would have worked. People were fleeing as evidenced by cars burned out on the roads. There's really only one road in and out. And while there should be a state evaluation on those decisions, I think it's Monday morning quarterbacking to place such blame.

[expatjen]

I grew up in Hawaii and live here still. Every month we’d have the civil defence sirens go off and we all knew as kids growing up what it meant (some disaster was inbound).

For the director of the emergency system on Maui to suggest that people would seek higher ground (go mauka into the mountains) if they sounded the alarm at a time when there were wildfire warnings and high winds, is so ducking dumb. People would’ve seen the glow of the fire. They wouldn’t run to it, they’d run away from it. They would’ve had some warning.

[pinkplasticdoll]

I just want to add re:sirens , I live in a tornado prone location and a few years ago they started using the sirens to indicate severe storms with high winds and large hail which has led to confusion during the storms and people being unsure about moving to their tornado protection locations. I can see how the sirens would cause panic about a tsunami given that's what they are traditionally used for even though the state says for a bunch of different scenarios. In this case the phone lines went down quick so they had no way to get messaging out other than rolling through the street with an speaker system . Like I don't know what the answers are here but I am sure they will be revisiting the notification to residents after this.

[expatjen]

There’s been talk now in Hawaii about having 2-3 different sounding sirens for different emergencies. 1 for tsunami. 1 for wildfire, 1 for other disaster.
This could be taught in elementary school (like it’s already being taught) and maybe put on the driver’s license test - so adults would have to learn it as well.
I think this is a great idea. Especially when power goes out and we can’t access phone, radio or tv.

[Michelle]

Aug 17, 2023 13:40:26 GMT -5 expatjen said:

There’s been talk now in Hawaii about having 2-3 different sounding sirens for different emergencies. 1 for tsunami. 1 for wildfire, 1 for other disaster.
This could be taught in elementary school (like it’s already being taught) and maybe put on the driver’s license test - so adults would have to learn it as well.
I think this is a great idea. Especially when power goes out and we can’t access phone, radio or tv.

I was going to suggest exactly this.

Alarms that trigger directional steps so you knew where to head.

I saw a video by someone who evacuated far from the fire, and she showed how quickly (less than 2 minutes) the world turned from - "disaster is popping in the far distance over there" to being completely overwhelmed by ash in the air with no ability to see which way they should go.

It was terrifying.

[pixy0stix]

Aug 17, 2023 1:30:04 GMT -5 thejen626 said:

I live in rural Oregon where we have large wildfires. I had to evacuate in 2020. We frequently get horrible smoke and are often on level 1 evacuation warning in the summer.

On Sunday night at 10:40pm, we were getting into bed and my phone started freaking out screeching. I’ve never heard it make that sound before and I didn’t know how to turn it off. I read “level 3 evacuation GO NOW” and finally figured out how to “clear” the message and stop the loud sound; but then I couldn’t find the message in my phone anymore 😬

As far as I knew there weren’t any fires close by, no smoke smell in the air, etc. I went into Facebook and searched for my county and found the entire message. There was a huge fire that was about 30 miles east of me. I hadn’t heard of the location and had to google. Then I walked outside to see if I could smell smoke.

It was absolutely terrifying for the 2-3 minutes that it took for me to figure out that this level 3 evacuation warning wasn’t actually meant for me.

All this to say… I firmly believe that they should have used the Lahaina warning system. If they would have turned that on, most people would have gone outside of their homes, smelled smoke, maybe seen fires; and then been able to react. But NO WARNING??! I’m appalled and horrified. It’s unfathomable for me.

I looked this up as I remembered an article about it - www.nytimes.com/2020/09/25/us/fires-oregon-evacuation-alerts.html

Same issue - worries that it might jam people on the roads, might reach the wrong people, hesitation, etc. The truth of the matter is, there is no one foolproof method to reach people, and there's always going to be that human element that may (or may not) do the right thing.

[lilac05]

Aug 17, 2023 3:51:46 GMT -5 expatjen said:

I grew up in Hawaii and live here still. Every month we’d have the civil defence sirens go off and we all knew as kids growing up what it meant (some disaster was inbound).

For the director of the emergency system on Maui to suggest that people would seek higher ground (go mauka into the mountains) if they sounded the alarm at a time when there were wildfire warnings and high winds, is so ducking dumb. People would’ve seen the glow of the fire. They wouldn’t run to it, they’d run away from it. They would’ve had some warning.

I get this line of thinking, but remember also that they’re having to make this very quick decision in the midst of a pending major emergency. Maybe Monday Morning quarterbacking makes people think they would have done it differently, but I understand why they didn’t sound it.

And also, in that emergency, it would not be surprising if people STILL would have gone towards the fire, thinking there was a tsunami coming and they had better chances of avoiding a fire than a wall of water. Again, might seem ridiculous now, but panic makes people do stupid things.

We have sirens that are for tornadoes, and now they also use them for straight line winds and it’s confusing. Tornadoes, you need to be in your basement. Straightline winds, you should really just be away from windows that have things nearby that could break them. (I mean, i wouldn’t sit right by a window or anything, but you don’t need to hide in a basement.) It’s caused confusion and even less adherence to the sirens because people don’t know which it is and don’t take it seriously. The same siren would have also gone off had there been a major disaster at the nuclear power plant. In one instance, you need to go in your basement and hide. In the other, you need to get in your car and get out of town, ASAP.

[basilosaurus]

Even sirens don't always work. I had to drag my roommate, from the Midwest, into our basement at a midnight siren. I had to drag my partner at another midnight siren out of our very exposed bedroom. I'm from Florida, where we didn't have sirens, and I still knew this meant danger.

But I wouldn't have known evacuate danger with a siren. In fact I'd have thought it better to stay in place. That's the advice for earthquakes (I've been through a 7). Hurricanes is a mixed bag, and I've been through many. Evacuate if you can, but stay in a safe(r) place if you can't.

I do think there's room to evaluate the procedure. And maybe education. But if this is a once in 100 years, should it be first thought? I really don't know

[al dente]

Welp the MEMA administrator has resigned sighting health reasons.

But no people aren't absolute idiots that would run TOWARDS the fire. You hear the siren here, you look outside. You don't see anything you talk to your neighbor, check online, you find out! At least give people the option to make a bad choice vs no choice at all. People left their house to go to work and at that moment found out there was a fire a block away so they had no choice but to run to the water. Could've at least grabbed something to float with if given a 5 minute warning instead no warning.

[al dente]

Also, this is the last thing I'm saying because it gets me too upset tbh. But it wasn't just that they didn't set it off. It was that he was so callous in saying that he didn't even regret it, because he thinks so incredibly low of his constituents that he believed they would've all ran into the fire. It's insulting, and relays absolutely no accountability or thoughtfulness to the situation.

[basilosaurus]

Aug 18, 2023 3:17:48 GMT -5 al dente said:

Also, this is the last thing I'm saying because it gets me too upset tbh. But it wasn't just that they didn't set it off. It was that he was so callous in saying that he didn't even regret it, because he thinks so incredibly low of his constituents that he believed they would've all ran into the fire. It's insulting, and relays absolutely no accountability or thoughtfulness to the situation.

This I fully understand. He was an absolute dickwad.

[expatjen]

Aug 18, 2023 3:17:48 GMT -5 al dente said:

Also, this is the last thing I'm saying because it gets me too upset tbh. But it wasn't just that they didn't set it off. It was that he was so callous in saying that he didn't even regret it, because he thinks so incredibly low of his constituents that he believed they would've all ran into the fire. It's insulting, and relays absolutely no accountability or thoughtfulness to the situation.

exactly. He is not what represents Hawaii. It was disgusting to see the way he answered that question .

[aurora]

My local emergency sirens have the wail and then a loud voice saying "this is a warning system test", so it seems like it could easily be updated to specify the type of danger incoming? I have no idea if Hawaii's system could be capable.

Anyway, agreed that if they didn't try to warm people at all, that's crazy.

[MixedBerryJam]

Aug 17, 2023 3:51:46 GMT -5 expatjen said:

I grew up in Hawaii and live here still. Every month we’d have the civil defence sirens go off and we all knew as kids growing up what it meant (some disaster was inbound).

For the director of the emergency system on Maui to suggest that people would seek higher ground (go mauka into the mountains) if they sounded the alarm at a time when there were wildfire warnings and high winds, is so ducking dumb. People would’ve seen the glow of the fire. They wouldn’t run to it, they’d run away from it. They would’ve had some warning.

You answered exactly the question I had. I can se both sides of the alarm debate - sure we’re “trained” that it is a tsunami warning so inland/up. But did the authorities think residents would run towards fire they see with their own eyes? But also, sirens at least would have gotten people out the door to figure out something was happening.