Maestro/Bradley Cooper controversy

[Jalapeñomel]

Lots of stuff out about the decisions of the film on portraying Leonard Bernstein.

Leonard Bernstein’s Children Defend Bradley Cooper’s Prosthetic Nose in ‘Maestro’: ‘Our Dad Would Have Been Fine With It’

variety.com/2023/film/news/bradley-cooper-maestro-nose-controversy-leonard-bersnstein-family-defends-1235697835/amp/


Bradley Cooper accused of ‘Jewface’ over fake nose in ‘Maestro,’ Leonard Bernstein's children defend the prosthetic

Bradley Cooper is facing mounting backlash over his use of a prosthetic nose while depicting composer and conductor Leonard Bernstein in the upcoming movie "Maestro," prompting Bernstein's children to rush to Cooper's defense for his portrayal of their father.

The biographical romance, which Cooper co-wrote, produced and directed, tells the story of Bernstein, who famously co-created "West Side Story," with a focus on the composer's 25-year marriage to Felicia Montealegre.

www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bradley-cooper-prosthetic-nose-leonard-bernstein-maestro-jewface-rcna100137


amp.theguardian.com/film/2023/aug/16/bradley-cooper-in-jewface-storm-after-leonard-bernstein-trailer-reveals-prosthetic-nose

[AJL]

I don't have a real strong opinion on Cooper wearing a prosthetic nose but I do have a problem with this idea:

Concerns around "Jewface" in Hollywood portrayals were highlighted in 2021 by comedian Sarah Silverman, who said the film industry had a "long tradition of non-Jews playing Jews." 

Silverman defined the term as being “when a non-Jew portrays a Jew with the Jewishness front and center, often with makeup or changing of features, big fake nose, all the New York-y or Yiddish-y inflection."

It's the assumption that Jews have a specific look and we're all Ashkenazi, descended from ancestors who lived on the shtetl, who look like what I call "Woody Allen Jews." But Jews pretty much look like everyone. We don't have a "look". And for those of us who do not look stereotypical are often times seen as not Jewish enough or not even Jewish at all. 

What people who are saying they want a Jew to play a Jew for this movie is that they want an Ashkenazi-looking Jewish person to play an Ashkenazi Jew. Or is it enough for any Jewish person to be in the role? Would Jack Black be a better choice? What if he also wore a prosthetic nose? Would it be ok because he's Jewish? 

As a Jew who is not Ashkenazi, this is confounding and frustrating. I'm on board with Bernstein's family on this one. 

[tacokick]

What’s weird to me is that the nose makes him look even less like Bernstein. What was the point then?

[sporklemotion]

I’m an Ashkenazi Jew who has many of the features associated with that ethnicity.
The picture I saw (I can’t figure out how to link it) bothers me because it looks like the prosthetic exaggerates the stereotype and it’s not the same shape as Bernstein’s.
In general, I don’t agree that only Jewish actors should play Jewish characters or that there’s something wrong by default with Cooper playing this role. But I don’t like the e idea that he needed that nose to do it, and it does make me uncomfortable.

[mcsangel2]

The problem is they couldn't make a prosthetic that was the actual shape of Bernstein's nose because BC's real nose is too long and pointy. I get what they were going for (not just the size/shape of the nose in isolation, but also the top of the bridge of the nose in relation to his eyes and eyebrows) and I get that they really didn't want BC to look like himself here, but it just doesn't look right.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Aug 16, 2023 15:14:51 GMT -5 tacokick said:

What’s weird to me is that the nose makes him look even less like Bernstein. What was the point then?

I agree with this. I think Bradley Cooper actually looks a surprising amount like Bernstein in his younger years.

[MixedBerryJam]

Well. I saw this story and a pic or two today and I thought it was Bradley Whitford so honestly I thought it was an objectively skilled makeup job (bc he didn’t look anything like whitford). Maybe I was married to my large-schnozzed husband for too long, but a pic of the actor with the prosthetic nose next to the actual conductor made the prosthetic nose look comically large. I have to reconsider now that I have the right actor as the frame of reference. ETA But also, what sporklemotion said is what I was going for. Unnecessarily exaggerated. 

[sent]

Actors gain and lose weight to look like the character in their roles so temporarily altering their nose shape or hairstyle or eye color doesn't seem too far fetched either. I'm sure the prosthetic could have been made to look more accurate, but I say this as someone who stares at faces all day and know that good quality prosthetic work exists. Maybe the people involved in making the movie didn't focus on the look of the nose as they were focusing on the entire look of the character and the film. But now that it's out, the nose is the only detail people can seem to fixate on.

[imimahoney]

Honestly as a Jew with a "jewish nose" I would say Cooper's fake nose just looks bad, not even remotely like a stereotypical Jewish nose. It's an awful prosthetic.

But yes, I see and understand the controversy. With Spielberg attached to the project and his work fighting against antisemitism, I would have hoped he would have put a stop to it.

[Jalapeñomel]

They could’ve done the entire movie without a prosthetic. It’s completely unnecessary.

[wawa]

Aug 18, 2023 11:48:58 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

They could’ve done the entire movie without a prosthetic. It’s completely unnecessary.

eehhh...not the ENTIRE movie.  From watching the entire trailer, it appears to be one of those movies that covers a big chunk of the person's life so they age Cooper up as it goes. And as we all know, old noses do not look like young noses, so they had to give him a rounder squashier nose in the later scenes. typically movies use facial prothetics and makeup to do that - this one appears to do the same.  It just ALSO has one for the "now" age, and that one is weird pointy crap.

from the clips in that trailer has a different prosthetic in later (older) scenes with a nose that seems like a MUCH more realistics match to the actual nose in question (in his later years). If they were all that accurate, and not this crazy pointy thing, i don't think we'd be having this conversation.

Now...WHY nobody flagged the young nose as being exaggerated feels kinda anti-semetic to me.  Like people jsut had in their heads "yeah, that looks right, he had a big jewish shnozz. " and so it didn't get flagged as needing to be adjusted?  I dunno.  Seems plausible to me. I get why people are mad.

[Jalapeñomel]

Aug 18, 2023 12:19:23 GMT -5 wawa said:

Aug 18, 2023 11:48:58 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

They could’ve done the entire movie without a prosthetic. It’s completely unnecessary.

eehhh...not the ENTIRE movie.  From watching the entire trailer, it appears to be one of those movies that covers a big chunk of the person's life so they age Cooper up as it goes. And as we all know, old noses do not look like young noses, so they had to give him a rounder squashier nose in the later scenes. typically movies use facial prothetics and makeup to do that - this one appears to do the same.  It just ALSO has one for the "now" age, and that one is weird pointy crap.

from the clips in that trailer has a different prosthetic in later (older) scenes with a nose that seems like a MUCH more realistics match to the actual nose in question (in his later years). If they were all that accurate, and not this crazy pointy thing, i don't think we'd be having this conversation.

Now...WHY nobody flagged the young nose as being exaggerated feels kinda anti-semetic to me.  Like people jsut had in their heads "yeah, that looks right, he had a big jewish shnozz. " and so it didn't get flagged as needing to be adjusted?  I dunno.  Seems plausible to me. I get why people are mad.

If they felt the nose change was important to the story, use make up. There’s a zillion movies where two different people play the same person, and the audience suspends disbelief, same can be done here with a nose.

[ESF]

On the one hand, I can see how it's akin to adding a fake mole or giving someone a push up bra to play Marilyn Monroe.   Prosthetic noses are used to make actors look like their real life counterparts all the time in a ton of circumstances. 

But Hollywood has a shitastic record of casting non-marginalized people to play marginalized people in inappropriate ways, so maybe if they cleaned that up, they'd get the benefit of the doubt more often.

And I'm still pissed that we gave the makeup Oscar for a fat suit, so I don't really want to  defend Hollywood on this one. 

[starburst604]

Aug 16, 2023 20:42:06 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Aug 16, 2023 15:14:51 GMT -5 tacokick said:

What’s weird to me is that the nose makes him look even less like Bernstein. What was the point then?

I agree with this. I think Bradley Cooper actually looks a surprising amount like Bernstein in his younger years.

I thought the same when I saw the comparison of their profiles. They could have left BC's own nose and added some other things to make them look more similar. The nose just doesn't look anything like Bernstein's. How did this pass muster? 

[wawa]

Aug 18, 2023 12:26:00 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Aug 18, 2023 12:19:23 GMT -5 wawa said:

eehhh...not the ENTIRE movie.  From watching the entire trailer, it appears to be one of those movies that covers a big chunk of the person's life so they age Cooper up as it goes. And as we all know, old noses do not look like young noses, so they had to give him a rounder squashier nose in the later scenes. typically movies use facial prothetics and makeup to do that - this one appears to do the same.  It just ALSO has one for the "now" age, and that one is weird pointy crap.

from the clips in that trailer has a different prosthetic in later (older) scenes with a nose that seems like a MUCH more realistics match to the actual nose in question (in his later years). If they were all that accurate, and not this crazy pointy thing, i don't think we'd be having this conversation.

Now...WHY nobody flagged the young nose as being exaggerated feels kinda anti-semetic to me.  Like people jsut had in their heads "yeah, that looks right, he had a big jewish shnozz. " and so it didn't get flagged as needing to be adjusted?  I dunno.  Seems plausible to me. I get why people are mad.

If they felt the nose change was important to the story, use make up. There’s a zillion movies where two different people play the same person, and the audience suspends disbelief, same can be done here with a nose.

My point was that i don't think we'd be having this conversation if the only prosthetic nose in the story was the "older man" squashier version that seems like a much more realistic match based on the brief clips in the trailer and not the beak because I don't think it would have registered the same way (i.e. I don't think it looks out of place the way the other one does). But as I keep typing and deleting things...I think I've talked myself around to agreeing that any fake noses in a story about a sephardic jew with a large nose is a terrible fucking idea and I'm not sure it's possible to pull it off without a lot of people finding it offensive.

Fake "jew noses" certainly has similar history to blackface in terms of offensive AF parody usage. I think there's a lot of facial prosthetic work in movies that we barely notice, or that we don't think anything of. In the same way that everybody on screen is DEFINITELY wearing makeup, but the second the makeup choice is to darken your actor's skin to match a character....welp, that's dicey choice and you're going to get scrutinized for it so I hope you really do have an extra special good reason like you think you do. So obviously if you're in a movie and you're making or wearing a nose for a jewish character you better be cognizant AS FUCK about what that means and be very very sure that it's necessary and that you're getting it right. And I think they failed on both counts in the nose in that shot.

[basilosaurus]

Nicole Kidman wore a prosthetic nose to play Sylvia Plath in the hours and was praised for it. At the outset this seems inoffensive. But of course there are more layers. And Hollywood doesn't have a great track record. For now, though, I'm settling on misguided rather than purposefully offensive.

[tacokick]

Aug 19, 2023 2:01:14 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Nicole Kidman wore a prosthetic nose to play Sylvia Plath in the hours and was praised for it. At the outset this seems inoffensive. But of course there are more layers. And Hollywood doesn't have a great track record. For now, though, I'm settling on misguided rather than purposefully offensive.

She played Virginia Woolf in The Hours and there was a lot of backlash about the nose back then! Some praise but a lot of people were not happy at all.

www.nytimes.com/2003/02/15/movies/the-nose-was-the-final-straw.html

Virginia Woolf was not Jewish and was anti-Semitic so that aspect of the problem wasn’t an issue, it was just about looks.

I doubt the producers are setting out to purposely offend people with prosthetic noses but that doesn’t take away from the fact in 2023 they are still putting fake noses on actors playing Jewish characters/representations of actual people even when they aren’t needed. I can see something in this case as part of the aging make up—noses and faces change—but as a younger man he really doesn’t need it. Why is adding a fake nose the default? It must be a lot less work to use the actor’s natural nose yet they didn’t.

[wise_rita]

I'm using this thread to randomly mention that I have completely fallen down an Instagram rabbit hole (I presume this content all comes from Tik Tok) of Hasidic Jewish women. They're pretty traditional in their customs but have surprisingly normal, modern lives.

I am FASCINATED, possibly because I come from a long line of people who've never even met a Jewish person before.

[AJL]

Aug 19, 2023 13:53:59 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

I'm using this thread to randomly mention that I have completely fallen down an Instagram rabbit hole (I presume this content all comes from Tik Tok) of Hasidic Jewish women. They're pretty traditional in their customs but have surprisingly normal, modern lives.

I am FASCINATED, possibly because I come from a long line of people who've never even met a Jewish person before.

So Hasidic actually refers to a specific group among Orthodox Jews. When describing traditional Orthodox (very modestly clothed, women wearing tichels or sheitls, men wearing tzitzit, etc.), we use the term Haredi. Also there are various tiers of orthodoxy. My BIL/SIL and family are Orthodox and they just made aliyah to Israel. They're more "modern" orthodox. 

I also think that a lot of non-Jews (and even Jews in less observant movements like my own) don't quite understand that very observant Judaism isn't analogous to what we expect very observant or conservative Christianity to be like. Judaism holds a lot of beliefs even among the most observant that would be considered progressive (example being on abortion).

There are a couple of Haredi content creators on TikTok that I love to follow. One is Miriam Ezagui (@miriamezagui) and another women who's name I can't quite remember, but I'll post it if I do. 

[sent]

Aug 19, 2023 13:53:59 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

I'm using this thread to randomly mention that I have completely fallen down an Instagram rabbit hole (I presume this content all comes from Tik Tok) of Hasidic Jewish women. They're pretty traditional in their customs but have surprisingly normal, modern lives.

I am FASCINATED, possibly because I come from a long line of people who've never even met a Jewish person before.

This content comes across my FB feed too and I’m not actively searching religions. I think it’s because my phone listens to me.

[Deleted]

Aug 19, 2023 14:15:04 GMT -5 AJL said:

Aug 19, 2023 13:53:59 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

I'm using this thread to randomly mention that I have completely fallen down an Instagram rabbit hole (I presume this content all comes from Tik Tok) of Hasidic Jewish women. They're pretty traditional in their customs but have surprisingly normal, modern lives.

I am FASCINATED, possibly because I come from a long line of people who've never even met a Jewish person before.

So Hasidic actually refers to a specific group among Orthodox Jews. When describing traditional Orthodox (very modestly clothed, women wearing tichels or sheitls, men wearing tzitzit, etc.), we use the term Haredi. Also there are various tiers of orthodoxy. My BIL/SIL and family are Orthodox and they just made aliyah to Israel. They're more "modern" orthodox. 

I also think that a lot of non-Jews (and even Jews in less observant movements like my own) don't quite understand that very observant Judaism isn't analogous to what we expect very observant or conservative Christianity to be like. Judaism holds a lot of beliefs even among the most observant that would be considered progressive (example being on abortion).

There are a couple of Haredi content creators on TikTok that I love to follow. One is Miriam Ezagui (@miriamezagui) and another women who's name I can't quite remember, but I'll post it if I do. 

Miriam comes across my feed often, as do the “Nomadic” Jewish family (don’t remember their exact handle), and a younger orthodox woman who posts modest fashion. I really enjoy watching their videos.

[wise_rita]

Aug 19, 2023 15:53:17 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Aug 19, 2023 14:15:04 GMT -5 AJL said:

So Hasidic actually refers to a specific group among Orthodox Jews. When describing traditional Orthodox (very modestly clothed, women wearing tichels or sheitls, men wearing tzitzit, etc.), we use the term Haredi. Also there are various tiers of orthodoxy. My BIL/SIL and family are Orthodox and they just made aliyah to Israel. They're more "modern" orthodox. 

I also think that a lot of non-Jews (and even Jews in less observant movements like my own) don't quite understand that very observant Judaism isn't analogous to what we expect very observant or conservative Christianity to be like. Judaism holds a lot of beliefs even among the most observant that would be considered progressive (example being on abortion).

There are a couple of Haredi content creators on TikTok that I love to follow. One is Miriam Ezagui (@miriamezagui) and another women who's name I can't quite remember, but I'll post it if I do. 

Miriam comes across my feed often, as do the “Nomadic” Jewish family (don’t remember their exact handle), and a younger orthodox woman who posts modest fashion. I really enjoy watching their videos.

That Jewish Family! I can't imagine keeping kosher on the road, OMG. Or anywhere that's not Brooklyn with their restaurants and grocery stores.

Miriam is my fave that I've found so far. I'm fascinated!

[wildrice]

I think if it's super critical to a story that the actor playing a character has a specific physical look, they should cast someone who fits that look. There are so many actors out there who would doing anything to work in film. I am sure many of them are just as talented as Bradley Cooper, even if they are not yet famous. I know I said something similar about Brandon Frasier in a fat suit. So I 100% think that forcing an appearance associated with an identity on someone who is not a part of that identity is a bad choice.

That said - reading the article it sounds like Bernstein's family felt that he was well represented - and sensitively played - by Bradley Cooper. It feels kind of dismissive of them to say they are wrong - they are the people closest to the real life person and it sounds like they were a part of telling this story and felt this was a good choice. So I don't really feel right disagreeing with them either. If this is how they want Bernstein to be represented, that should have weight too.

As a non-Jewish person though what I think ultimately doesn't matter!

[tacokick]

Aug 19, 2023 17:16:04 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I think if it's super critical to a story that the actor playing a character has a specific physical look, they should cast someone who fits that look. There are so many actors out there who would doing anything to work in film. I am sure many of them are just as talented as Bradley Cooper, even if they are not yet famous. I know I said something similar about Brandon Frasier in a fat suit. So I 100% think that forcing an appearance associated with an identity on someone who is not a part of that identity is a bad choice.

That said - reading the article it sounds like Bernstein's family felt that he was well represented - and sensitively played - by Bradley Cooper. It feels kind of dismissive of them to say they are wrong - they are the people closest to the real life person and it sounds like they were a part of telling this story and felt this was a good choice. So I don't really feel right disagreeing with them either. If this is how they want Bernstein to be represented, that should have weight too.

As a non-Jewish person though what I think ultimately doesn't matter!

What’s odd is that he actually looks a lot like (younger) him without the fake nose. The nose makes him less like Bernstein.

Playing the character/person well and telling a good story and the nose issue are different areas of focus IMO. He could have done a great job acting and telling the story without the prosthetic. I doubt the family requested Cooper to wear a fake nose. The issue is why did the production feel like he needed to wear it in the first place? If it’s not because it made him look like Bernstein (because it doesn’t) then what is it?

[quesyrah]

Aug 19, 2023 14:15:04 GMT -5 AJL said:

Aug 19, 2023 13:53:59 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

I'm using this thread to randomly mention that I have completely fallen down an Instagram rabbit hole (I presume this content all comes from Tik Tok) of Hasidic Jewish women. They're pretty traditional in their customs but have surprisingly normal, modern lives.

I am FASCINATED, possibly because I come from a long line of people who've never even met a Jewish person before.

So Hasidic actually refers to a specific group among Orthodox Jews. When describing traditional Orthodox (very modestly clothed, women wearing tichels or sheitls, men wearing tzitzit, etc.), we use the term Haredi. Also there are various tiers of orthodoxy. My BIL/SIL and family are Orthodox and they just made aliyah to Israel. They're more "modern" orthodox. 

I also think that a lot of non-Jews (and even Jews in less observant movements like my own) don't quite understand that very observant Judaism isn't analogous to what we expect very observant or conservative Christianity to be like. Judaism holds a lot of beliefs even among the most observant that would be considered progressive (example being on abortion).

There are a couple of Haredi content creators on TikTok that I love to follow. One is Miriam Ezagui (@miriamezagui) and another women who's name I can't quite remember, but I'll post it if I do. 

I also like Shemamagans. They made aliyah last year

[bronxgirl]

Aug 19, 2023 16:25:32 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Aug 19, 2023 15:53:17 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Miriam comes across my feed often, as do the “Nomadic” Jewish family (don’t remember their exact handle), and a younger orthodox woman who posts modest fashion. I really enjoy watching their videos.

That Jewish Family! I can't imagine keeping kosher on the road, OMG. Or anywhere that's not Brooklyn with their restaurants and grocery stores.

Miriam is my fave that I've found so far. I'm fascinated!

Oh FFS, people keep kosher all over the world and have been doing so for thousands of years. And Jews live in many more places than Brooklyn. Stop talking about us like we're exotic zoo animals. 

[AJL]

Aug 19, 2023 16:25:32 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Aug 19, 2023 15:53:17 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Miriam comes across my feed often, as do the “Nomadic” Jewish family (don’t remember their exact handle), and a younger orthodox woman who posts modest fashion. I really enjoy watching their videos.

That Jewish Family! I can't imagine keeping kosher on the road, OMG. Or anywhere that's not Brooklyn with their restaurants and grocery stores.

Miriam is my fave that I've found so far. I'm fascinated!

It's actually not that hard to keep kosher. 

[msmerymac]

Aug 19, 2023 8:17:06 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Aug 19, 2023 2:01:14 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Nicole Kidman wore a prosthetic nose to play Sylvia Plath in the hours and was praised for it. At the outset this seems inoffensive. But of course there are more layers. And Hollywood doesn't have a great track record. For now, though, I'm settling on misguided rather than purposefully offensive.

She played Virginia Woolf in The Hours and there was a lot of backlash about the nose back then! Some praise but a lot of people were not happy at all.

www.nytimes.com/2003/02/15/movies/the-nose-was-the-final-straw.html

Virginia Woolf was not Jewish and was anti-Semitic so that aspect of the problem wasn’t an issue, it was just about looks.

I doubt the producers are setting out to purposely offend people with prosthetic noses but that doesn’t take away from the fact in 2023 they are still putting fake noses on actors playing Jewish characters/representations of actual people even when they aren’t needed. I can see something in this case as part of the aging make up—noses and faces change—but as a younger man he really doesn’t need it. Why is adding a fake nose the default? It must be a lot less work to use the actor’s natural nose yet they didn’t.

It's a lot less work for the makeup department and a lot less work/more comfortable for the actor! Not only does he need to get to the makeup chair before dawn, most likely, but prosthetics impede natural facial expressions, which are crucial to the craft of acting. 

Re: keeping kosher, most of my friends who do will default to eating vegetarian or vegan at "normal" restaurants because it's an easy way to avoid having to deal with the big laws of kashrut (how meat is butchered and the meat/milk mixing). 

[notreal]

Just had a trailer for a biopic about Golda Meir starring Helen Mirren come across my feed. It looks like prosthetics are involved. Also, as an aside, Golda really looks like my Grandma.

[StrawberryBlondie]

In case anyone doesn't know, this is what Bernstein looked like when he was young.

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