AirBnB new limiting law in NYC

[sonrisa]

One factor that complicates rental duration is landlord/tenant law. In some places, landlords prefer to rent Airbnb style because residing somewhere for 30days (or some other time frame) triggers certain tenant protections. Those protections exist for a reason. But some landlords don’t want to be bound by them. I am more than a decade out of landlord tenant work in NYC so I don’t remember the specifics there.

[Deleted]

Sept 6, 2023 14:07:49 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Sept 6, 2023 9:17:21 GMT -5 @villainv said:

In places where there isn’t a conflict between these two (say, in a vacation or tourist location,)

this is a false dichotomy. Everywhere tourists go and people vacation also has residents. People live and work locally.

Yes, but not everywhere has a shortage of affordable housing. For example, we stayed in an AirBNB over the summer in a town we moved away from a year ago. We are very familiar with the housing market and there’s no shortage, so we felt okay about renting someone’s guest house (not a full primary residence but like an outbuilding/converted barn).

[loira]

I live in a township that's one of several municipalities that make up my city. Airbnbs and VRBOs are not allowed, mainly due to the fact that council has made a commitment to ensuring rental supply for residents. Canada is definitely in a housing bubble and my province (and especially Vancouver and Victoria) is one of the most affected by this. But airbnbs are allowed in most of the other municipalities and they are definitely part of the problem.

[wawa]

Sept 6, 2023 18:00:14 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Sept 6, 2023 14:07:49 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

this is a false dichotomy. Everywhere tourists go and people vacation also has residents. People live and work locally.

Yes, but not everywhere has a shortage of affordable housing. For example, we stayed in an AirBNB over the summer in a town we moved away from a year ago. We are very familiar with the housing market and there’s no shortage, so we felt okay about renting someone’s guest house (not a full primary residence but like an outbuilding/converted barn).

This has always been my take with the two places I'm most likely to airbnb...wildwood, nj and an assortment of small towns on the east side of the Chesapeake bay beyond DC commuting distance. My extended family all llives in s. Jersey and housing still seems pretty accessible just off the barrier islands. Like...the houses my grandparents grew up in on the islands themselves are long long gone replaced with rental monstrosities but the place my mom grew up in the same county is still a normal place to live.

In contrast...my uncle moved to the keys when he retired and it is an issue there. You can't functionally work in key west and live elsewhere, transportation is too messy and the affordable options for folks who work those jobs are dwindling.

But maybe I'm kidding myself that it's different.

[lilac05]

Sept 10, 2023 19:42:44 GMT -5 wawa said:

Sept 6, 2023 18:00:14 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Yes, but not everywhere has a shortage of affordable housing. For example, we stayed in an AirBNB over the summer in a town we moved away from a year ago. We are very familiar with the housing market and there’s no shortage, so we felt okay about renting someone’s guest house (not a full primary residence but like an outbuilding/converted barn).

This has always been my take with the two places I'm most likely to airbnb...wildwood, nj and an assortment of small towns on the east side of the Chesapeake bay beyond DC commuting distance. My extended family all llives in s. Jersey and housing still seems pretty accessible just off the barrier islands. Like...the houses my grandparents grew up in on the islands themselves are long long gone replaced with rental monstrosities but the place my mom grew up in the same county is still a normal place to live.

In contrast...my uncle moved to the keys when he retired and it is an issue there. You can't functionally work in key west and live elsewhere, transportation is too messy and the affordable options for folks who work those jobs are dwindling.

But maybe I'm kidding myself that it's different.

I don’t know that it really is much different. I live in a very non-tourist place (Iowa) and between AirBnB and personal investors trying to be landlords, it’s a real issue here. We have affordable apartments, but the market to be able to purchase a small starter home is rough. People come in with all cash deals to rent places out (often out of state investors because it’s so cheap), especially places that are walking distance to other things, and it makes getting into the housing market tough. Yes, cost of homes is nothing compared to many places, but incomes are also much different, too. People who COULD afford a starter home don’t get their offers accepted because they can’t offer all cash or other things like investment buyers can.

[fortnightlily]

Not related to AirBnB, but the New York Times had an article today about how Tokyo has more affordable housing than other major US or European cities. The gist is that they build tons of housing. They have generous zoning and don't try to maintain old buildings or green space to a large extent (I think that last part is a real shame).

www.nytimes.com/2023/09/11/opinion/editorials/tokyo-housing.html?unlocked_article_code=YybP4HH5dhlpD_C66hu0okkgGHQvzhjDK4HOl4AYNQ8cMBh-KwTpp-b5hG9Gt3Jd3Y1ebTXvp7E-wMkQm482S5U9N5wndu2o5HT9M31TCdvaZKy_vBWSjSM9KJPbJoNrhgbRnlFPHabHFP8Th09Ge5xyrbZ90iYFnGDazbokhcFD_tLWzKZqCdiXZ3rMpYqaxVo1OnYIdHEQ85M8RNKbR4rlbXWv3EMCrfyFW6GB1heGmxG8ULIvBlnatwDK3ugbbUK43eGQ1FYlerir6Aorl8-Bb4oK1eX2nhgGf7CnugyvV4jIqD0S6peOT9ZCVClbTn4eBqCxmlXE_hG082M6ZXJU&smid=url-share

[Michelle]

I appreciate so many points in this discussion that are really important and eye-opening.

Since this post started, I've looked into this a bit more. Some factors for consideration that i've come across that add to what has already been shared include construction & related shortages. The average age of home building contractors used to be early 30s and is now mid to late 40s - there aren't a lot of young people taking up those jobs as others retire, and the cost of materials has skyrocketed, dampening profitability to encourage more people to pursue those careers. So future housing development isn't projected to keep pace with the growth of our population, which means we may not be in a bubble right now - it may be the new norm.

The combination of that with all the factors y'all have mentioned shows the government really does need to manage the humanitarian access to housing with private investment and regulate where it is allowed and where it isn't. Private consumers can't keep up with it in all geographies. If airbnbs are damaging to the basic housing access in a community and therefore become prohibited, hotels will have an incentive to develop the short-term rental options that airbnbs currently offer.

I already try to find traditional mom & pop bed and breakfast establishments for travel will work harder to do so instead of airbnbs going forward.

[acuore]

I despise Airbnb, so I am 110% in favor of NY (and ony other community) taking steps to rein it in. Aside from the fact that Airbnb properties make housing even tighter and more expensive in already crazy tight/expensive markets (which has been covered throughly already in this thread), Airbnb also sucks from the perspective of property owners. I have never stayed in an Airbnb (hotels all the way for me), but we do own a rental house and had a horrendous experience with them. 

We want to keep, not sell, this house (which I inheirited from my mother) because our plan in the next few years is to sell where we currently are and move there. In the meantime, we are renting the house out on 12-month leases. Unfortunately, our last tenant decided - against the terms of his lease, HOA rules, and local ordinances - to engage in a little rental arbitrage and list the house on Airbnb. We only found out when a neighbor complained to the HOA about various people with different out-of-state plates constantly coming and going. 

After a *very* awkward encounter with a family of Airbnb “guests” temporarily occupying the house, I found the Airbnb listing and contacted their customer service to explain that, actually, we are the owners of the house, and we *never* agreed to have our house used in this manner. Not only that, Airbnbs are effectively banned in our County, which is something they could have very easily verified with a simple ZIP code check. Airbnb did. Not. Care. They wouldn’t even tell us how many future reservations there were, let alone promise to cancel them. They said we didn’t have a right to that information because it wasn’t our listing - nevermind that it is our property. In the meantime, the HOA was pissed, our neighbors were ticked, and we were technically open to a $500/day fine from the County due to our property being used for short-term stays.

I was actually stunned by how few f*cks Airbnb had to give about the fact that one of their so-called “Superhosts” was literally illegally renting out a place they didn’t own, claiming in communications with “guests” that it was their house, while flagrantly violating local law and the lease. We eventually got our listing taken down, but the same “superhost” is still active on their platform with other properties. I will never, ever give one dime to Airbnb, even if the only alternative is a flea-bag motel, and I encourage everyone I know to avoid them too. 

[wawa]

I do think it's interesting that we keep talking about this as just Airbnb. I assume that people have the same issues with other short term rental properties? When I search my area three of the results on the first page are actually apartments owned by a single company and when I go to their site you can also rent directly through them. My last rental was a lake house and I found it on Airbnb and then searched them up on the local rental company directly to avoid the extra fees once I knew what to look for.

I am usually looking for whole house listings when I want something like this, so I check VRBO first and only go to airbnb if I come up empty...do we hate them just as much? They predate Airbnb by a big margin, but do basically the same thing with a slightly different focus.

The legislative action seems to be aimed at any short term rental options, the housing shortage issues certainly are, but some of the stories and frustration here seems to be aimed specifically at one company. Are we using Airbnb for a catchall for all short term rentals? (Like people say Uber even if they also mean Lyft)

[tacokick]

Sept 12, 2023 5:50:42 GMT -5 wawa said:

I do think it's interesting that we keep talking about this as just Airbnb. I assume that people have the same issues with other short term rental properties? When I search my area three of the results on the first page are actually apartments owned by a single company and when I go to their site you can also rent directly through them. My last rental was a lake house and I found it on Airbnb and then searched them up on the local rental company directly to avoid the extra fees once I knew what to look for.

I am usually looking for whole house listings when I want something like this, so I check VRBO first and only go to airbnb if I come up empty...do we hate them just as much? They predate Airbnb by a big margin, but do basically the same thing with a slightly different focus.

The legislative action seems to be aimed at any short term rental options, the housing shortage issues certainly are, but some of the stories and frustration here seems to be aimed specifically at one company. Are we using Airbnb for a catchall for all short term rentals? (Like people say Uber even if they also mean Lyft)

People have always been able to rent out houses, condos and apartments (especially in touristy areas) from individuals and licensed rental agencies. Traditionally, they are zoned and regulated locally in way that Air BnB and Vrbo are not. Some areas require licensing and other frees paid by the owner, some require just registration of the property.

Air BnB and Vrbo “disrupted” short term rentals by circumventing local laws similar to what Uber did with taxis. The laws are just now catching up.

Renting from a local rental agency makes it much more likely the rental is working within the laws of the community it is in.

[Velar Fricative]

Sept 12, 2023 5:50:42 GMT -5 wawa said:

I do think it's interesting that we keep talking about this as just Airbnb. I assume that people have the same issues with other short term rental properties? When I search my area three of the results on the first page are actually apartments owned by a single company and when I go to their site you can also rent directly through them. My last rental was a lake house and I found it on Airbnb and then searched them up on the local rental company directly to avoid the extra fees once I knew what to look for.

I am usually looking for whole house listings when I want something like this, so I check VRBO first and only go to airbnb if I come up empty...do we hate them just as much? They predate Airbnb by a big margin, but do basically the same thing with a slightly different focus.

The legislative action seems to be aimed at any short term rental options, the housing shortage issues certainly are, but some of the stories and frustration here seems to be aimed specifically at one company. Are we using Airbnb for a catchall for all short term rentals? (Like people say Uber even if they also mean Lyft)

Maybe in NYC people rented out bedrooms or apartments via VRBO, but I honestly don't remember. It really took off once AirBNB became a thing, and then investors got involved and removed long-term rental housing from the inventory to create short-term rentals to make more money, hence I guess why they're the "bad guys" locally and we collectively blame them. 

[sent]

Quick search told me that VRBO started in 1996. I don’t remember us as a society being hell-bent on disrupting local town laws back then. It’s like VRBO was always around but maybe it got a big boost when Airbnb and it’s deep pockets came on the scene.

Before Airbnb, people posted for roommates on places like craigslist, old school bulletin boards, and just asking people to spread news by word-of-mouth to places like company internal sites or alumni emails etc. Airbnb started as just renting a room in someone’s house or apartment, which I think was mentioned above already, before it morphed into the monster it is now.

[tacokick]

Sept 12, 2023 18:24:57 GMT -5 sent said:

Quick search told me that VRBO started in 1996. I don’t remember us as a society being hell-bent on disrupting local town laws back then. It’s like VRBO was always around but maybe it got a big boost when Airbnb and it’s deep pockets came on the scene.

Before Airbnb, people posted for roommates on places like craigslist, old school bulletin boards, and just asking people to spread news by word-of-mouth to places like company internal sites or alumni emails etc. Airbnb started as just renting a room in someone’s house or apartment, which I think was mentioned above already, before it morphed into the monster it is now.

VRBO was created to allow direct from owner rentals vs going through traditional rental agencies; it was just a very early and leas popular version of Air BnB is and what it eventually it became. But yeah, the idea was always to skirt laws and cut out travel agents/rental agents.