United Autoworkers Strike

[neverfstop]

From Axios


The United Auto Workers union launched an unprecedented strike against GM, Ford and Stellantis at midnight, after negotiators failed to reach a last-minute deal on a new contract.



Why it matters: There's never been a strike against Detroit's Big 3 all at once, writes Axios' Nathan Bomey, who has covered autos for a decade.

The companies collectively have about 150,000 UAW-represented employees at dozens of factories in the U.S., making popular vehicles like the Ford F-150, Chevrolet Silverado and Jeep Wrangler.


The two sides: The automakers want a deal to help them compete with non-union automakers, including Tesla, which have a cost advantage.



The UAW wants a 36% pay increase and a return to traditional pensions.

🖼️ The big picture: If this turns into a strike at all of the automakers' U.S. plants, it would cost more than $5 billion over 10 days, according to the Anderson Economic Group.


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Thoughts? Inside or outside opinions? 

[fernweh]

I work for one of the big 3 as a non-union employee.

I only know specifics about my employer but I have heard rumblings about the others as well. I honestly think they have made very fair offers and counteroffers. The companies have given a lot of concessions.

In my opinion the union is overplaying their hand and it’s going to turn into a no win situation. Fain is going for short term wins and isn’t looking at long term repercussions.

I honestly think(and this is based on nothing but my hunch) that Fain has political aspirations and so he is trying to make a national name for himself. Not striking was never an option for him.

[msmerymac]

I was listening to NPR and some of the younger workers are salty that there is a multi-tier system with regards to things like pensions and healthcare. And the unions seem to have made a ton of concessions in 2008/2009 when GM almost folded.

Also, TIL Chrysler has a parent company I’ve never heard of.

[zarapipe]

I don’t have strong feelings but the daily had a good podcast about it yesterday or the day before.

[AAM2012]

I want a 36% raise and a 4 day work week too!

[Susie]

Sept 15, 2023 16:57:09 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

I was listening to NPR and some of the younger workers are salty that there is a multi-tier system with regards to things like pensions and healthcare. And the unions seem to have made a ton of concessions in 2008/2009 when GM almost folded.

Where defined benefit plans still exist at all, I think this is pretty common.  The NYSLRS (state & local gov't retirement system) currently has 6 tiers based on when you came in, and it impacts benefits eligibility, formula for calculation of benefits, death benefit coverage, service crediting, whether you have to contribute for benefits or not, etc.  MH came in at the end of tier 4, and has friends who are tiers 4, 5, and 6.  Everybody knew what they were being offered when they took the job. I'm sure tier 5 and 6 folks would love to jump in on tier 4's benefits, and tier 4 would love what tier 3 and up have.  But that was never on the table, and there was full transparency about what was on offer at the time of job offer.  Maintaining retirement benefits that were offered in the earlier tiers forever was not financially responsible for the state or feasible.  From that perspective it's hard for me to get too up in arms about a multi-tier system.

I think the ask of returning to a defined benefit plan is an out of touch ask on the part of UAW.  It just feels like a regressive reach back to the "good old days."  

I can't get mad at wanting raises of similar % to executive raises though! 

[wildrice]

Sept 15, 2023 18:52:10 GMT -5 Susie said:

Sept 15, 2023 16:57:09 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

I was listening to NPR and some of the younger workers are salty that there is a multi-tier system with regards to things like pensions and healthcare. And the unions seem to have made a ton of concessions in 2008/2009 when GM almost folded.

Where defined benefit plans still exist at all, I think this is pretty common.  The NYSLRS (state & local gov't retirement system) currently has 6 tiers based on when you came in, and it impacts benefits eligibility, formula for calculation of benefits, death benefit coverage, service crediting, whether you have to contribute for benefits or not, etc.  MH came in at the end of tier 4, and has friends who are tiers 4, 5, and 6.  Everybody knew what they were being offered when they took the job. I'm sure tier 5 and 6 folks would love to jump in on tier 4's benefits, and tier 4 would love what tier 3 and up have.  But that was never on the table, and there was full transparency about what was on offer at the time of job offer.  Maintaining retirement benefits that were offered in the earlier tiers forever was not financially responsible for the state or feasible.  From that perspective it's hard for me to get too up in arms about a multi-tier system.

I think the ask of returning to a defined benefit plan is an out of touch ask on the part of UAW.  It just feels like a regressive reach back to the "good old days."  

I can't get mad at wanting raises of similar % to executive raises though! 

IDK if I really have a problem with going back to the good old days when it comes to fair wages and benefits, though. Sure, it's way out of line with what is "typical" these days but it's typical to screw your employees. IMO we should bring back pensions, especially in private companies that are making huge profits. I can see how this would be difficult for government or other non profits, but nobody should be making the kind of money their execs are making while leaving workers unable to save enough for retirement.

I think pensions are especially important in blue collar jobs where people just can't work forever. My dad was able to retire at 58 with a pension and I'm extremely grateful for that - the kind of grueling hours and physical work that he did his whole career wasn't good for him as he aged. If he'd had a 401k and no health insurance it would have been impossible, though. 

[Patsy Baloney]

I feel very, “the top has made it impossible for everyone under them to live,” about all industries, so I hope the union gets everything they ask for.

Let’s all do our best to eat some rich today.

[SusanBAnthony]

My company and my husband's both have these systems where newer (post great recession) employees don't get pensions. I think both ended pensions in 2009. Some people at my company are definitely bitter. It doesn't help that those who do have pensions are a little flaunty about it.

I have no dog in this fight so all I have to add is this random anecdote.

[sparty04]

Probably flammable but I think UAW workers already make a really good wage for their type of work. I was quite surprised to see what they were asking for.
ETA: they also get profit sharing checks in Feb or March

[onthemove]

“In a Facebook Live event on Wednesday night, Fain compared the companies' profits — up 65% over four years — to autoworkers' pay, which increased just 6% in that same timeframe.

CEO pay has also been a major issue of contention.

GM CEO Mary Barra, the highest-paid chief executive among the Big Three, made nearly $29 million in 2022. Securities and Exchange Commission filings show that this is 362 times the median GM employee's paycheck”

www.npr.org/2023/09/15/1199673197/uaw-strike-big-3-automakers

No one starts a negotiation asking for what they want to end up with, they know there will have to be compromise. On the news this morning they said with inflation, people are making 20% less than after the bailouts of 2008. We should be ok with 17-32$ an hour for the avg worker while the CEO makes $29m a year? This is fair?

[Patsy Baloney]

These types of threads always surprise me. Why do so many want to place limits on what union workers make or cast their requests as outlandish when we have millionaires/billionaires walking around?

[TR]

Sept 15, 2023 21:24:38 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

These types of threads always surprise me. Why do so many want to place limits on what union workers make or cast their requests as outlandish when we have millionaires/billionaires walking around?

I think we get stuck comparing those asking to ourselves instead of to those billionaires. I know it’s easy for me to be like “Why should they get more?” because what I really mean is “I want more” and you have to take that knee jerk reaction and turn the anger where it belongs.

[pierogigirl]

Sept 15, 2023 18:52:10 GMT -5 Susie said:

Sept 15, 2023 16:57:09 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

I was listening to NPR and some of the younger workers are salty that there is a multi-tier system with regards to things like pensions and healthcare. And the unions seem to have made a ton of concessions in 2008/2009 when GM almost folded.

Where defined benefit plans still exist at all, I think this is pretty common.  The NYSLRS (state & local gov't retirement system) currently has 6 tiers based on when you came in, and it impacts benefits eligibility, formula for calculation of benefits, death benefit coverage, service crediting, whether you have to contribute for benefits or not, etc.  MH came in at the end of tier 4, and has friends who are tiers 4, 5, and 6.  Everybody knew what they were being offered when they took the job. I'm sure tier 5 and 6 folks would love to jump in on tier 4's benefits, and tier 4 would love what tier 3 and up have.  But that was never on the table, and there was full transparency about what was on offer at the time of job offer.  Maintaining retirement benefits that were offered in the earlier tiers forever was not financially responsible for the state or feasible.  From that perspective it's hard for me to get too up in arms about a multi-tier system.

I think the ask of returning to a defined benefit plan is an out of touch ask on the part of UAW.  It just feels like a regressive reach back to the "good old days."  

I can't get mad at wanting raises of similar % to executive raises though! 

This isn't entirely true. For NYSTRS, Tier 3 was worse than tier 4 and most retirees were allowed to choose to retire under tier 4. Tier 1 was the best, and tiers 5 and 6 are much worse than tier 4. There is some talk about trying to improve tier 5 and 6. So, it does happen, sometimes.

[livinitup]

I have no idea why it’s preferable to root for a few executives at the top of the auto food chain to be fabulously wealthy instead of spreading the profits all over the place to everyone, especially the workers who build the automobiles. The whole point, the best part of organized labor is that everyone benefits, not just the objective value of what one worker does. Especially to underpay them as much as possible.

[sparty04]

Sept 15, 2023 22:51:48 GMT -5 livinitup said:

I have no idea why it’s preferable to root for a few executives at the top of the auto food chain to be fabulously wealthy instead of spreading the profits all over the place to everyone, especially the workers who build the automobiles. The whole point, the best part of organized labor is that everyone benefits, not just the objective value of what one worker does. Especially to underpay them as much as possible.

I don't disagree with you, but does this actually ever happen? I just can't see the execs taking paycuts. I can see prices increasing and people getting laid off to offset increased labor costs. It's such a broken system and seems hopeless.

[Bad Dingo]

Sept 15, 2023 20:40:39 GMT -5 sparty04 said:

Probably flammable but I think UAW workers already make a really good wage for their type of work. I was quite surprised to see what they were asking for.
ETA: they also get profit sharing checks in Feb or March

"...for their type of work."

I think the execs (and executives in general) make way too much money for the type of work THEY do.

[tealblue]

Sept 15, 2023 23:15:13 GMT -5 sparty04 said:

Sept 15, 2023 22:51:48 GMT -5 livinitup said:

I have no idea why it’s preferable to root for a few executives at the top of the auto food chain to be fabulously wealthy instead of spreading the profits all over the place to everyone, especially the workers who build the automobiles. The whole point, the best part of organized labor is that everyone benefits, not just the objective value of what one worker does. Especially to underpay them as much as possible.

I don't disagree with you, but does this actually ever happen? I just can't see the execs taking paycuts. I can see prices increasing and people getting laid off to offset increased labor costs. It's such a broken system and seems hopeless.

I thought the same thing. If the union gets any % wage increase, the costs of the cars will go up as the automakers will just pass that operating cost onto the consumer. I don’t see the shareholders reducing their dividends or profit and the execs won’t reduce their wages or bonuses. The whole system is very broken.

[neverfstop]

When they talk about UAW - does that only include people on the assembly line?

I guess I would want to know how they are compensated vs. non-Union employees... The engineers & accountants & HR staff. It does seem like the union keeps asking for more and more (money, benefits) that are really unreasonable (at least to stay on that trajectory into the future) and also be competitive with other car companies that do NOT use UAW (Tesla, Toyota, Kia, etc.) and who are building cars in the south.

Yes, corporate profits and stock dividends and CEO pay are out of whack with typical employees pay, but I'm not sure the unions demands are realistic given the long-term industry trends (electric vehicles, autonomous vehicles, more automated factory assembly lines, employee compensation/pension/healthcare).

[seeyalater52]

Sept 15, 2023 23:15:13 GMT -5 sparty04 said:

Sept 15, 2023 22:51:48 GMT -5 livinitup said:

I have no idea why it’s preferable to root for a few executives at the top of the auto food chain to be fabulously wealthy instead of spreading the profits all over the place to everyone, especially the workers who build the automobiles. The whole point, the best part of organized labor is that everyone benefits, not just the objective value of what one worker does. Especially to underpay them as much as possible.

I don't disagree with you, but does this actually ever happen? I just can't see the execs taking paycuts. I can see prices increasing and people getting laid off to offset increased labor costs. It's such a broken system and seems hopeless.

To be fair, it would be a lot less hopeless and impossible and happen a lot more if people stopped acting like striking for better workplace protections was entitled or unfair to executives/corporations. This is not an impossible thing. Our broken system can be fixed, but not if we resist even the barest of changes to get there. Supporting the strike is one tiny piece of the equation and one the unions and public do have control over even if we can’t fix the entire system and all it’s associated issues.

[seeyalater52]

Sept 16, 2023 7:09:55 GMT -5 tealblue said:

Sept 15, 2023 23:15:13 GMT -5 sparty04 said:

I don't disagree with you, but does this actually ever happen? I just can't see the execs taking paycuts. I can see prices increasing and people getting laid off to offset increased labor costs. It's such a broken system and seems hopeless.

I thought the same thing. If the union gets any % wage increase, the costs of the cars will go up as the automakers will just pass that operating cost onto the consumer. I don’t see the shareholders reducing their dividends or profit and the execs won’t reduce their wages or bonuses. The whole system is very broken.

Those things aren’t in the union’s control though. Consumers expecting goods and services to be available at wages and benefits and conditions that are unsustainable and unfair for frontline workers who produce them is also part of the problem.

ETA: workers and unions are not responsible for single handedly bearing the brunt of bad systems that need to change. Their responsibility is to the workers.

[onthemove]

Why is the person making $50k a year “unreasonable” for asking for more but the people making 1,000,000-29,000,000 a year not the target of everyone’s concerns?

[4speedy]

Sept 15, 2023 16:17:56 GMT -5 fernweh said:

I work for one of the big 3 as a non-union employee.

I only know specifics about my employer but I have heard rumblings about the others as well. I honestly think they have made very fair offers and counteroffers. The companies have given a lot of concessions.

In my opinion the union is overplaying their hand and it’s going to turn into a no win situation. Fain is going for short term wins and isn’t looking at long term repercussions.

I honestly think(and this is based on nothing but my hunch) that Fain has political aspirations and so he is trying to make a national name for himself. Not striking was never an option for him.

Fain seems to be making a bunch of rookie mistakes.  He has not showed up to negotiate for 2 days, opting instead for photo ops on the picket line.  Except all evidence indicates that contracts settled in the first 48 hours of a strike are historically the more beneficial for the labor side.  He has given up the unions advantage in favor of personal promotion.  I’s be super pissed if I were a UAW member.  This is not the guy to get the job done.

[aurora]

Sept 15, 2023 23:15:13 GMT -5 sparty04 said:

Sept 15, 2023 22:51:48 GMT -5 livinitup said:

I have no idea why it’s preferable to root for a few executives at the top of the auto food chain to be fabulously wealthy instead of spreading the profits all over the place to everyone, especially the workers who build the automobiles. The whole point, the best part of organized labor is that everyone benefits, not just the objective value of what one worker does. Especially to underpay them as much as possible.

I don't disagree with you, but does this actually ever happen? I just can't see the execs taking paycuts. I can see prices increasing and people getting laid off to offset increased labor costs. It's such a broken system and seems hopeless.

Sort of. At least, it used to, in the WW2-Reagan era when Unions were strong and inequality was much less dramatic. Then Reagan came along and convinced a bunch of people that unfettered capitalism would be best for everyone, when really it has only proven best for people at the top of the scale.

[fernweh]

Sept 16, 2023 7:23:43 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

When they talk about UAW - does that only include people on the assembly line?

I guess I would want to know how they are compensated vs. non-Union employees... The engineers & accountants & HR staff. It does seem like the union keeps asking for more and more (money, benefits) that are really unreasonable (at least to stay on that trajectory into the future) and also be competitive with other car companies that do NOT use UAW (Tesla, Toyota, Kia, etc.) and who are building cars in the south.

Yes, corporate profits and stock dividends and CEO pay are out of whack with typical employees pay, but I'm not sure the unions demands are realistic given the long-term industry trends (electric vehicles, autonomous vehicles, more automated factory assembly lines, employee compensation/pension/healthcare).

No UAW is not only those on the assembly line but it doesn’t include the salary workers - management, HR, and other groups you mentioned. It generally also includes skilled trades, offline inspection, and some not supervisory salary roles.
Again I am only 1 person working for 1 company, so I can’t speak for everyone but I can say most of the UAW workers make more than me. My base pay is more but they get a lot of benefits I don’t. They get profit sharing, yearly lump sum payments, plus bonuses when vehicles win awards like motor trend or jd power. If they choose to work overtime they get time and a half on Saturday, double time on Sunday and triple time on holidays. It is not uncommon for the hourly represented staff even those not at top pay to clear 6 figures annually. I have had some who worked for me even tell me in the past they clear $200k most years.

I am not in anyway saying they don’t deserve a higher hourly rate or that CEOs should be making what they make.

I think the major issue that needs to be addressed and it has been discussed in contracts to a degree is the part time employees. They make significantly less, often times have to work for years before they have the opportunity to become full time and aren’t eligible for any of the above mentioned bonuses/profit sharing.

[goldengirlz]

Sept 15, 2023 18:52:10 GMT -5 Susie said:

Sept 15, 2023 16:57:09 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

I was listening to NPR and some of the younger workers are salty that there is a multi-tier system with regards to things like pensions and healthcare. And the unions seem to have made a ton of concessions in 2008/2009 when GM almost folded.

Where defined benefit plans still exist at all, I think this is pretty common.  The NYSLRS (state & local gov't retirement system) currently has 6 tiers based on when you came in, and it impacts benefits eligibility, formula for calculation of benefits, death benefit coverage, service crediting, whether you have to contribute for benefits or not, etc.  MH came in at the end of tier 4, and has friends who are tiers 4, 5, and 6.  Everybody knew what they were being offered when they took the job. I'm sure tier 5 and 6 folks would love to jump in on tier 4's benefits, and tier 4 would love what tier 3 and up have.  But that was never on the table, and there was full transparency about what was on offer at the time of job offer.  Maintaining retirement benefits that were offered in the earlier tiers forever was not financially responsible for the state or feasible.  From that perspective it's hard for me to get too up in arms about a multi-tier system.

I think the ask of returning to a defined benefit plan is an out of touch ask on the part of UAW.  It just feels like a regressive reach back to the "good old days."  

I can't get mad at wanting raises of similar % to executive raises though! 

This reasoning sounded good until I found out that my Boomer in-laws — former NYC public school teachers — make $200k a year from their pension.

Two hundred thousand dollars per year

Since they were 55 years old!! For doing nothing. NY pensions also get special tax treatment in NY.

And they’re hardly the only ones: www.empirecenter.org/publications/six-figure-nyslrs-pensions-quadruple-in-ten-years/

I’m not saying it’s financially feasible to go back (at least in the public sector), but I also can’t blame younger people for saying fuck the tiers!

[goldengirlz]

Sept 16, 2023 7:09:55 GMT -5 tealblue said:

Sept 15, 2023 23:15:13 GMT -5 sparty04 said:

I don't disagree with you, but does this actually ever happen? I just can't see the execs taking paycuts. I can see prices increasing and people getting laid off to offset increased labor costs. It's such a broken system and seems hopeless.

I thought the same thing. If the union gets any % wage increase, the costs of the cars will go up as the automakers will just pass that operating cost onto the consumer. I don’t see the shareholders reducing their dividends or profit and the execs won’t reduce their wages or bonuses. The whole system is very broken.

It’s a little more complicated than this. Companies can try to pass on costs, but only to a certain extent; they can’t increase prices beyond what the market will bear. There’s going to be a cap on what consumers will pay for a given car. And while companies don’t like to reduce profits and dividends, obviously it does happen (anyone who owns stock knows that returns aren’t guaranteed.)

It’s not hopeless — this is what unions are for, to represent the interests of workers against the interests of shareholders. In an ideal world, more of these protections would be coming from the government (like in Europe), but barring that, I don’t understand all the cynicism here toward collective bargaining.

On a tangent, I thought this article was interesting: fortune.com/2023/04/20/companies-say-they-value-employees-their-earnings-calls-say-they-value-customers-more/amp/

[origami]

Sept 16, 2023 7:09:55 GMT -5 tealblue said:

Sept 15, 2023 23:15:13 GMT -5 sparty04 said:

I don't disagree with you, but does this actually ever happen? I just can't see the execs taking paycuts. I can see prices increasing and people getting laid off to offset increased labor costs. It's such a broken system and seems hopeless.

I thought the same thing. If the union gets any % wage increase, the costs of the cars will go up as the automakers will just pass that operating cost onto the consumer. I don’t see the shareholders reducing their dividends or profit and the execs won’t reduce their wages or bonuses. The whole system is very broken.

The Big 3 already lose money on many of the vehicles they make b/c they can't raise their prices and continue to sell. They're not going to make that problem worse. Especially not when their most profitable competitors aren't unionized and would never pay what UAW workers get paid now, much less what they're demanding.

I feel for UAW workers b/c jobs like that are already few and far between. But until the UAW unionizes Tesla, Toyota, Honda, etc they're not going to get what they want. 

[jlt19]

Sept 15, 2023 21:31:24 GMT -5 TR said:

Sept 15, 2023 21:24:38 GMT -5 Patsy Baloney said:

These types of threads always surprise me. Why do so many want to place limits on what union workers make or cast their requests as outlandish when we have millionaires/billionaires walking around?

I think we get stuck comparing those asking to ourselves instead of to those billionaires. I know it’s easy for me to be like “Why should they get more?” because what I really mean is “I want more” and you have to take that knee jerk reaction and turn the anger where it belongs.

It’s similar to the poor being Republicans even though it’s not in their best interest. Gotta keep someone below you, right?

[pinkdutchtulips]

I’ve seen calls to boycott the NAIAS aka the Detroit Auto Show should the strike continue into January. People calling for folks not to cross the ‘picket line’ by attending. This will be a blow to the city in terms of lost hotel, dining, entertainment revenue.