Maine mass shootings

[pinkplasticdoll]

I have a friend that lives just outside Lewiston, her husbands office is right near the shooting sites. Yesterday some of his coworkers identified a man on the roof of the building and called police, the police came out and said it was probably just someone painting graffiti because they saw a man with a bag....turns out that the cameras they have on the outside show a man that matches the suspects description so they are really shaken .

[Michelle]

Oct 26, 2023 12:29:10 GMT -5 pinkplasticdoll said:

I have a friend that lives just outside Lewiston, her husbands office is right near the shooting sites. Yesterday some of his coworkers identified a man on the roof of the building and called police, the police came out and said it was probably just someone painting graffiti because they saw a man with a bag....turns out that the cameras they have on the outside show a man that matches the suspects description so they are really shaken .

That is infuriating!

cattledogkisses and others in the area - sending you all the best energy for safety and security.

[Deleted]

Oct 26, 2023 9:27:15 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

Oct 26, 2023 8:36:21 GMT -5 lucybrown said:

If the information provided is correct, this is the third veteran, PTSD-related event that I heard about yesterday. It's absolutely tragic for all involved.

Big hugs to everyone impacted. I have no more words.

The news has reported that he never deployed or saw combat.  I just want to avoid adding to the stigma of PTSD by associating this event with it, when there has not been any indication thus far that his reported mental health issues were related to PTSD or his military service.

I completely understand what you’re saying…but feel compelled to point out that mental health conditions including PTSD can be related to military service that hasn’t involved combat or deployment, including (but not limited to) death of friends, proximity to suicide, training accidents, abusive leadership, military sexual trauma, medical trauma, and many more reasons. I’m not sure that we have enough information in this case to rule out military service as a contributing factor to any mental health conditions.

[lucybrown]

Oct 26, 2023 15:19:46 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Oct 26, 2023 9:27:15 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

The news has reported that he never deployed or saw combat.  I just want to avoid adding to the stigma of PTSD by associating this event with it, when there has not been any indication thus far that his reported mental health issues were related to PTSD or his military service.

I completely understand what you’re saying…but feel compelled to point out that mental health conditions including PTSD can be related to military service that hasn’t involved combat or deployment, including (but not limited to) death of friends, proximity to suicide, training accidents, abusive leadership, military sexual trauma, medical trauma, and many more reasons. I’m not sure that we have enough information in this case to rule out military service as a contributing factor to any mental health conditions.

Thank you. I started typing this sentiment out earlier, but struggled with words and whether or not this was the time or place for the discussion. There’s a lot we don’t know yet in this situation, but I agree with all of this.

[Pom]

I have a new friend that recently moved here from Maine and we just had a quick chat about her living there earlier last night. This was before I turned on the tv to see info about Lewiston.

I reached out to her this morning to find that she had worked with Somali Bantu farmers and she was very involved with the community in Lewiston. She said everyone she’d reached out to there were already so traumatized by guns and the war they thought they’d left behind in Somalia. I can’t imagine what it’s like for everyone during this heinous event and with the perp still at large.

[pugz]

They still haven't found him? I hope the manhunt ends soon so people can relax and be able to spend time with loved ones, especially those that are grieving.

[mrshandy]

Unfortunately I think that this manhunt is going to last for a while. Maine is very woodsy especially as you go further north. There are so many places to hide and disappear. This guy is supposedly a survivalist so my guess is he's going off grid in the middle of nowhere. If you keep driving up 95, you'll see less and less people and towns and just woods. It's very isolated up there. They might not find him until the weather turns colder and he has to surface to survive.

H is from Maine originally and he has lots of family that still live there not far from the crime. Thankfully all his friends and family are safe as far as we know.

[aurora]

I think we've gotten used to (and how horrible is that to write???) mass shooters who aren't really looking to get out of it alive themselves. I'm not so much surprised that this murderer is capable of avoiding police, but more that he wanted to, if that makes sense.

[shauni27]

Oct 27, 2023 9:59:00 GMT -5 aurora said:

I think we've gotten used to (and how horrible is that to write???) mass shooters who aren't really looking to get out of it alive themselves. I'm not so much surprised that this murderer is capable of avoiding police, but more that he wanted to, if that makes sense.

I was thinking about this. As far as we know, he could be dead somewhere secluded and we would never know. Or he could be genuinely in hiding and then its like, will he do this again? It is all very scary to think about.

[cattledogkisses]

Oct 27, 2023 9:59:00 GMT -5 aurora said:

I think we've gotten used to (and how horrible is that to write???) mass shooters who aren't really looking to get out of it alive themselves. I'm not so much surprised that this murderer is capable of avoiding police, but more that he wanted to, if that makes sense.

I'm not sure he did.  The police have shared that he left a note, and while they haven't given specifics it's being widely assumed that it was a suicide note. 

I'm beginning to feel more and more that he may have ended his own life out in the woods somewhere.  In any case, dead or alive, I hope very much that they're able to locate him.  The families of those killed, the community, and the state all need closure.  Everyone is on edge not knowing if he's still out there somewhere.  Maine is the most heavily-forested state in the US, and unfortunately if his body is out there somewhere it could be a very long time before it turns up.  

At the press conference this morning they said they'll be doing grid and line searches today around the area where his car was abandoned, as well as diving in the river. 

[Susie]

I can't imagine the nightmare for everyone local to it, that the manhunt is still going on.  WaPo reported that the power company is going to lower the level of the river to help divers with the search.   (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/10/27/maine-shooting-suspect-victims-updates/#link-PMYP2MADKBGMFC4ZR4EOGCCXHY)

Whether they apprehend him or recover his body, I hardly care at this point.  I just hope for closure and relief for everyone who must be so on edge.

[meanie]

We just heard last night that someone in our friend group has a connection to one of the victims at the bowling alley. From what we were told she did not realize what was going on because she was deaf.

I was horrified by that detail - the vulnerability that inherently comes with some disabilities are heightened in times of crisis. I am hearing impaired, which is obviously no where near profound hearing loss, but I definitely would have a delayed response if I didn't see what was coming.

I hope they find this guy one way or another, the trauma is just compounding for the community with each day that goes by.

[cattledogkisses]

I went out to get groceries because the grocery store reopened today (most local businesses were closed yesterday including the grocery store). Police are patrolling heavily. Investigators searched a location about 15 minutes from here earlier today but didn’t say what they were looking for. It’s a weird feeling wondering how long this is going to go on.

[Velar Fricative]

Several deaf people were among the fatalities.

www.mainepublic.org/maine/2023-10-27/four-lewiston-victims-were-deaf-or-hard-of-hearing-the-communitys-worst-ever-mass-shooting

[shopgirl07]

They found him, he’s dead.

I was pretty sure he had killed himself, I was just worried they’d never find his body.

[Gato]

Oct 27, 2023 20:16:41 GMT -5 shopgirl07 said:

They found him, he’s dead.

I was pretty sure he had killed himself, I was just worried they’d never find his body.

I was just coming here to say this. Thank god. It was awful for people, living in limbo. Now they can begin grieving.

[aurora]

I'm glad that he was found so that he can't hurt anyone else.

[fernweh]

My heart does go out to the community.

I just saw his SIL stated he spent several weeks at an inpatient mental health facility over the summer. Does something like that not require you to forfeit your guns? I know this country is messed up but I can’t wrap my head around letting someone with known mental health issues just keep their guns.

[Deleted]

Oct 28, 2023 7:23:06 GMT -5 fernweh said:

My heart does go out to the community.

I just saw his SIL stated he spent several weeks at an inpatient mental health facility over the summer. Does something like that not require you to forfeit your guns? I know this country is messed up but I can’t wrap my head around letting someone with known mental health issues just keep their guns.

I think there is a misconception that all people with mental health struggles are violent. The vast majority are not. Even conditions that require hospitalization do not automatically make someone a threat.

Many states have red flag laws where guns can be confiscated. Maine doesn’t have red flag laws in the same sense — their law requires many more steps to remove firearms (many are calling this a “yellow flag law” because of the extra steps). It’s not clear how or if the yellow flag law applied in this case, but I expect those will come out soon.

In my opinion, the issue isn’t necessarily whether a mechanism exists to take guns away from mentally ill people, as much as it is that NOBODY should have access to this kind of weapon (mentally ill or not).

[fernweh]

@villianv

Of course- I didn’t mean to imply all people with mental health issues are violent.
I had a family member accused of a crime and even though it was non-violent they had to surrender their guns, even before conviction. I guess in my mind, this would be similar being at a mental health facility would be treated similarly. I also didn’t think of different state laws.

Of course I agree 100% that no one should have these guns regardless.

[Deleted]

Oct 28, 2023 8:40:10 GMT -5 fernweh said:

@villianv

Of course- I didn’t mean to imply all people with mental health issues are violent.
I had a family member accused of a crime and even though it was non-violent they had to surrender their guns, even before conviction. I guess in my mind, this would be similar being at a mental health facility would be treated similarly. I also didn’t think of different state laws.

Of course I agree 100% that no one should have these guns regardless.

Do I understand you correctly that you are equating seeking inpatient treatment for a medical condition to COMMITTING AN ACTUAL CRIME? They are not the same. They should not be treated the same. People with illnesses and disabilities have the same rights as everyone else.

No, everyone being treated at a mental health facility should not have to surrender their guns regardless of their diagnosis, treatment plan, or medication taken. If we did this, how many people would just not seek treatment? What kind of slippery slope would result, potentially stripping people with medical conditions or disabilities of other rights?

[shopgirl07]

Oct 28, 2023 7:23:06 GMT -5 fernweh said:

My heart does go out to the community.

I just saw his SIL stated he spent several weeks at an inpatient mental health facility over the summer. Does something like that not require you to forfeit your guns? I know this country is messed up but I can’t wrap my head around letting someone with known mental health issues just keep their guns.

I’m just listening to the press conference and apparently there’s a difference between voluntary and involuntary commitment in regards to the purchase of guns. So if you voluntarily enter a treatment facility, there’s no red or yellow flag.

[basilosaurus]

I will out myself as someone who's been on a few psych holds for my safety. For that (and many other) reasons I will never own a gun.

I was never a threat to others. I think this is a red herring that further stigmatizes those dealing with mental health issues.

More likely to be a victim than perpetrator.

I was held in Virginia after the uni shooting, and it was insane what I had to go through to get back home (I was treated like a criminal and denied care) when all I needed was a med adjustment. One that the psych assigned to my case, who'd never met me, refused and withheld scripts and attempted to prevent release to established care team.

So, while I prefer Japanese style no gun laws, I'm also sensitive to the blaming of individual, not the law, not the rhetoric

[fernweh]

Oct 28, 2023 8:51:34 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Oct 28, 2023 8:40:10 GMT -5 fernweh said:

@villianv

Of course- I didn’t mean to imply all people with mental health issues are violent.
I had a family member accused of a crime and even though it was non-violent they had to surrender their guns, even before conviction. I guess in my mind, this would be similar being at a mental health facility would be treated similarly. I also didn’t think of different state laws.

Of course I agree 100% that no one should have these guns regardless.

Do I understand you correctly that you are equating seeking inpatient treatment for a medical condition to COMMITTING AN ACTUAL CRIME? They are not the same. They should not be treated the same. People with illnesses and disabilities have the same rights as everyone else.

No, everyone being treated at a mental health facility should not have to surrender their guns regardless of their diagnosis, treatment plan, or medication taken. If we did this, how many people would just not seek treatment? What kind of slippery slope would result, potentially stripping people with medical conditions or disabilities of other rights?

You’re right, I was wrong. Clearly my ignorance is showing, so I’m going to apologize and then respectfully back out of this discussion.
I’m sorry for that implication.

[gemini79]

Oct 28, 2023 7:53:14 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Oct 28, 2023 7:23:06 GMT -5 fernweh said:

My heart does go out to the community.

I just saw his SIL stated he spent several weeks at an inpatient mental health facility over the summer. Does something like that not require you to forfeit your guns? I know this country is messed up but I can’t wrap my head around letting someone with known mental health issues just keep their guns.

I think there is a misconception that all people with mental health struggles are violent. The vast majority are not. Even conditions that require hospitalization do not automatically make someone a threat.

Many states have red flag laws where guns can be confiscated. Maine doesn’t have red flag laws in the same sense — their law requires many more steps to remove firearms (many are calling this a “yellow flag law” because of the extra steps). It’s not clear how or if the yellow flag law applied in this case, but I expect those will come out soon.

In my opinion, the issue isn’t necessarily whether a mechanism exists to take guns away from mentally ill people, as much as it is that NOBODY should have access to this kind of weapon (mentally ill or not).

I agree with what you are saying, but in almost every single mental health scenario from basic intake to high level inpatient care, professionals are screening for suicidal and homicidal ideation and planning--and means--and they are safety planning, which does include removal of weapons or any means of harm from the home. Maybe the way of asking was a bit clunky, but it's not really that stigmatizing to consider and question what/why and how someone who had such a severe mental health issue that they were inpatient a mere months ago had access to weapons and what their safety plan was. Again I understand this wasn't the exact question--but it's not a question that's out of line or should be off the table. 
I can guarantee that this is absolutely being questioned across multiple avenues anyways. 

[gretchenindisguise]

2nd amendment aficionados have made it really hard if not literally impossible/illegal to remove guns in this type of scenario.

This isn’t a mental health or mental health professional problem. It’s a legal problem. The laws need to change.

[Deleted]

Oct 28, 2023 12:33:24 GMT -5 gemini79 said:

Oct 28, 2023 7:53:14 GMT -5 @villainv said:

I think there is a misconception that all people with mental health struggles are violent. The vast majority are not. Even conditions that require hospitalization do not automatically make someone a threat.

Many states have red flag laws where guns can be confiscated. Maine doesn’t have red flag laws in the same sense — their law requires many more steps to remove firearms (many are calling this a “yellow flag law” because of the extra steps). It’s not clear how or if the yellow flag law applied in this case, but I expect those will come out soon.

In my opinion, the issue isn’t necessarily whether a mechanism exists to take guns away from mentally ill people, as much as it is that NOBODY should have access to this kind of weapon (mentally ill or not).

I agree with what you are saying, but in almost every single mental health scenario from basic intake to high level inpatient care, professionals are screening for suicidal and homicidal ideation and planning--and means--and they are safety planning, which does include removal of weapons or any means of harm from the home. Maybe the way of asking was a bit clunky, but it's not really that stigmatizing to consider and question what/why and how someone who had such a severe mental health issue that they were inpatient a mere months ago had access to weapons and what their safety plan was. Again I understand this wasn't the exact question--but it's not a question that's out of line or should be off the table. 
I can guarantee that this is absolutely being questioned across multiple avenues anyways. 

Absolutely! It’s very true that some people with mental health conditions shouldn’t have access to weapons because they are a danger to themselves and to others. Those screenings are important. But is hurtful to assume that ALL people with mental health conditions (including those that require hospitalization) are a danger and should lose their access to weapons, or that simply being hospitalized should mean losing access.

Look, is it likely that the system broke down in the case of this one individual? Sure! It’s very possible that he shouldn’t have been able to access weapons because of a mental health condition.

But the real issue here is that really nobody should have access to some of those guns. The mental health issue is a red herring to distract us from the argument that these weapons shouldn’t be even be legal at all, for anybody.

[beetea]

Potentially dumb question: in the event a gun owner does engage in whatever situation results in them being required to relinquish their guns, how on earth do "they" ensure this person does? Especially in states where it's not required to have a permit to purchase/own a gun?

[jlt19]

Oct 28, 2023 15:56:12 GMT -5 beetea said:

Potentially dumb question: in the event a gun owner does engage in whatever situation results in them being required to relinquish their guns, how on earth do "they" ensure this person does? Especially in states where it's not required to have a permit to purchase/own a gun?

They don’t/can’t. So then the person just becomes someone with an illegal weapon and then used for more fodder of how it’s only illegal guns that are used in violent crimes.

Again, why no one should be able to own these types of firearms, but let’s be realistic. There’s no way that will ever happen in our lifetimes.

[ellipses84]

The day before I’d been on the CNN website reading a lot of the Speaker of the House articles and I was thinking about how there were no articles about mass shootings on the main or US page, and it had been a while since there’d been a major one (because I know they are still happening every day and it’s become so commonplace we don’t even hear about them non-locally). What happened in Maine is heartbreaking.

It makes me so angry this happened again. We have the stats to prove what happens when assault rifles are banned from the 1990’s. The money the NRA has given to ALL the politicians combined isn’t even that much. Certainly not worth all of the deaths and injuries, along with the fear of being shot in America anytime anywhere. From a purely financial standpoint, we the people are paying far more for the aftermath in medical bills, permanent disability, damage and law suits than the NRA pays politicians. Any other thing in the US that relates to life safety is highly regulated. I wish the insurance companies and first responder unions would lobby for gun control.