Rise of antisemitism

[Nugget T. Brain, The OG]

Oct 31, 2023 11:59:07 GMT -5 AJL said:

Oct 31, 2023 8:21:19 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

My heart goes out to everyone who feels unsafe.

It's disturbing how many people can't separate, or refuse to separate, the actions of the Netanyahu administration from Jewish people as a whole.

This isn’t really the same as separating Americans from Trump’s administration. Israel = Jews. Israel exists because we Jews need a safe homeland. Jews will always be associated with Israel and by extension, the actions of Israel. It has been this way for the last 75 years. Is it wrong? Of course! But it is our reality. I do not and have not ever agreed with discriminatory policies towards Palestinians. But that means nothing to anyone who finds out I’m a Jew and support the existence of a safe Jewish homeland.

Jews are hated around the world. We have been hated for millennia. We have been conquered, driven out, murdered, discriminated against, vilified, and scapegoated for our entire existence. Simply because a non-Jew doesn’t feel that way towards us doesn’t mean that’s not our lived experience. It will not change. How can it? Can you get nearly 8 billion people to give a shit about 16 million Jews? How are we so fucking powerful to inspire so much hatred against us? I think it’s because we haven’t been destroyed by any one conquering group. We continue to rise again and live for our children and our communities and the world.

This is just how it is.

Genuine question, so are you saying people shouldn't be separating the actions of the country with the country's people, or they CAN'T because of the way they've always been so intertwined?  

So...how are people supposed to say "Bibi is hot garbage" which, I mean, he is, without being lumped in with the jackfucks saying "Jews are *insert bullshittery here*"?  Or is that fine but I'm missing something?

[mepi]

Nov 1, 2023 15:20:01 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

Nov 1, 2023 11:50:32 GMT -5 wildrice said:

This is something I have concern about - my H and I are hoping to go to the "free Palestine" march on Washington this week, but we do NOT want to participate in anything supporting being anti-semetic or harmful to Jewish people at all, nor do I want any of the Jews in our networks to take it as a lack of support for them. It is supposed to be a call for a cease fire, which we do support strongly. But it makes me nervous not knowing exactly how that message is going to be shared.

I think if the message is ceasefire with no surrender from Hamas being mentioned but just Israel standing down, then Jewish people in your network might see it as antisemitism.

The failure to call out Hamas and demand their surrender just as forcefully as people are calling for Israel to stand down is one of the most commom things my friends are posting about.

Why is a caveat needed of someone expressing their upset of innocent people being murdered? Being “well, ackchuallied“ on other innocent people being held hostage. Why isn’t that just completely obvious they would expect their safe return as part of their general beliefs? It’s just entirely in bad faith that this is even being brought up. Unless (general) you
actually believes something to the effect that Isreal should keep killing innocent Palestinians until the return of the Hamas held hostages.

I would love to know what their thoughts are on the 10,000 Palestinian hostages currently being held by Israel are..

Numbers from 2021


www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/9/13/infographic-how-many-palestinians-are-imprisoned-by-israel-interactive

Israel doubles number of Palestinian prisoners to 10,000 in two weeks
Since October 7, Israel has arrested 4,000 labourers from Gaza and more than 1,000 people in the occupied West Bank, Palestinian officials say.

www.aljazeera.com/amp/features/2023/10/21/number-of-palestinian-prisoners-in-israel-doubles-to-10000-in-two-weeks

[mepi]

Reminder than Israeli government officials have said themselves hostages and civilians are secondary to them.

[sporklemotion]

Nov 1, 2023 15:58:33 GMT -5 Nugget T. Brain, The OG said:

Oct 31, 2023 11:59:07 GMT -5 AJL said:

This isn’t really the same as separating Americans from Trump’s administration. Israel = Jews. Israel exists because we Jews need a safe homeland. Jews will always be associated with Israel and by extension, the actions of Israel. It has been this way for the last 75 years. Is it wrong? Of course! But it is our reality. I do not and have not ever agreed with discriminatory policies towards Palestinians. But that means nothing to anyone who finds out I’m a Jew and support the existence of a safe Jewish homeland.

Jews are hated around the world. We have been hated for millennia. We have been conquered, driven out, murdered, discriminated against, vilified, and scapegoated for our entire existence. Simply because a non-Jew doesn’t feel that way towards us doesn’t mean that’s not our lived experience. It will not change. How can it? Can you get nearly 8 billion people to give a shit about 16 million Jews? How are we so fucking powerful to inspire so much hatred against us? I think it’s because we haven’t been destroyed by any one conquering group. We continue to rise again and live for our children and our communities and the world.

This is just how it is.

Genuine question, so are you saying people shouldn't be separating the actions of the country with the country's people, or they CAN'T because of the way they've always been so intertwined?  

So...how are people supposed to say "Bibi is hot garbage" which, I mean, he is, without being lumped in with the jackfucks saying "Jews are *insert bullshittery here*"?  Or is that fine but I'm missing something?

I’m not knowledgeable enough to speak deeply on it, and I don’t agree with all of my Jewish friends on this (I am Jewish and support the existence of Israel, but am somewhat less hawkish than many of my friends), but I think the fear is that it’s hard not to see this as an existential crisis for Israel and, by extension, one for the Jewish people. So it’s hard not to feel like criticism of israel can turn into “you do t deserve help.” And as secure as I feel in my life in US society, there’s always a fear that will change, as it has so many times in history.

I think there’s also the country’s government, the country’s people, and Jewish people worldwide, and sometimes the lines get blurred in discourse. So critique of Bibi turns into critique of Israelis turns into critique of Jewish people.

[mepi]

"The world’s solution to safety and security, for Jews and for others, continues to be inextricably linked to the nation-state and its sovereignty — to militarized borders and an obsession with demography. As modern history has shown, such an idea always has the potential for exclusionary politics and mass violence. Perhaps most damaging of all is how such a solution propagates a diminished understanding of safety: It is the state that needs defending, not people. It is the state that holds sovereignty, not people. This logically leads to policies that label certain elements of society acceptable losses in times of conflict — sacrifices in the name of the state. And it facilitates an essentialist view of the world that cannot include the history of human migration and leaves no room for the fluidity of identity.


‘A reconsideration of the nation-state as the sole source of safety, as well as the notion of a state-based sovereignty, is essential. It is people who have sovereignty: People have the right to a dignified life, to self-determination, to control of their environment and a say in their future. And people can only be safe collectively by ensuring those around them are also safe. States are the way we organize our world, and they can provide forms of safety, but often narrowly, fleetingly and by denying safety to others. A state that continues to deny sovereignty cannot sustain safety. In the name of sovereignty and safety, it will continue to cause violence. And a garrison can only protect for so long.‘

newlinesmag.com/first-person/memory-voids-and-role-reversals/

[imimahoney]

I am not going to engage with you. Your sources are not necessary because I do not need convincing- I assume that's why you listed them?

I was explaining a feeling that some Jews may have. You clearly don't agree with me or that feeling but this is not going to be cleared up in a thread about threats of antisemitic violence.

But I would like to add, no... it is not clear that people calling for a ceasefire are also calling for Hamas to be removed from power.

Please don't quote me because I will not respond further.

[AJL]

Nov 1, 2023 15:58:33 GMT -5 Nugget T. Brain, The OG said:

Oct 31, 2023 11:59:07 GMT -5 AJL said:

This isn’t really the same as separating Americans from Trump’s administration. Israel = Jews. Israel exists because we Jews need a safe homeland. Jews will always be associated with Israel and by extension, the actions of Israel. It has been this way for the last 75 years. Is it wrong? Of course! But it is our reality. I do not and have not ever agreed with discriminatory policies towards Palestinians. But that means nothing to anyone who finds out I’m a Jew and support the existence of a safe Jewish homeland.

Jews are hated around the world. We have been hated for millennia. We have been conquered, driven out, murdered, discriminated against, vilified, and scapegoated for our entire existence. Simply because a non-Jew doesn’t feel that way towards us doesn’t mean that’s not our lived experience. It will not change. How can it? Can you get nearly 8 billion people to give a shit about 16 million Jews? How are we so fucking powerful to inspire so much hatred against us? I think it’s because we haven’t been destroyed by any one conquering group. We continue to rise again and live for our children and our communities and the world.

This is just how it is.

Genuine question, so are you saying people shouldn't be separating the actions of the country with the country's people, or they CAN'T because of the way they've always been so intertwined?  

So...how are people supposed to say "Bibi is hot garbage" which, I mean, he is, without being lumped in with the jackfucks saying "Jews are *insert bullshittery here*"?  Or is that fine but I'm missing something?

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that historically Jews have not had a nation to call our own. We have Israel now. Without Jews, why would there have needed to be a Jewish homeland established? There wouldn't be. You can't separate Israel from Jews. You can denounce Netanyahu as a rotten leader who is corrupt, ultra right wing, and a real dirt bag. But those qualities aren't because he's Jewish. It's because he's a shit leader. However, when people (in general) speak negatively and defamatorily about Israel, they mean Jews, too. Israeli Jews, Jews in the diaspora, all Jews. 

You can separate the country's foreign policy from Jews all day long. It won't make much of a difference in clearing the rhetoric that Israel = Jews. 

[pixy0stix]

Do not quote content if asked not to quote.

[AJL]

I want to share something with y'all. My sister posted this on her social media. It is a photo of our synagogue from two years ago, but read the caption because this is what we're going through tonight, on Shabbat. We live in the same city and attend this synagogue. It's where we were both married. It's where our babies were named and welcomed into the covenant in Judaism. It's where our children have become or will become b'nei mitzvah. It's where we held the memorials for both our parents after their deaths. 

Anti-Israel protestors do not distinguish between the government of Israel and Jews. To them we are one in the same. It doesn't matter if we support Palestinian freedom. It doesn't matter to them if we stand for peace for everyone in the region. Israel = Jew and Jew = destroy. Maybe you don't believe that but trust me when I say, many millions of people do. 

[erbear]

some @@@ mentioned

I don't know how to say this and I'm not sure it's going to come out right. I hope it does. What I (Jewish, though not practicing anymore, supporter of a free Palestine, with a practicing Jewish best friend and many Jewish and Muslim students) am struggling with is this: If we can and should separate Palestinians from Hamas, condemn what's happening to them, feel deep empathy and anger in this moment, and see them as pawns (for lack of a better term) in a government hell bent on destroying Israel, we must also separate Jews worldwide from the Israeli government, condemn the well documented rise in anti-semitism , condemn what's happening to them, feel deep empathy and anger in this moment, and see them as pawns (for lack of a better term) in a government hell bent on destroying Gaza. I think people on here are doing this (for the most part), but it's not happening in my real world. When I see signs that say "I stand with Israel", without any mention of a condemnation of the actions of the Israeli government, I am uncomfortable, because while I stand with Israel as a rule, I do not in this moment agree with what the government is doing in Gaza. At the same time, when I see protests for "Free Palestine", without any mention of a goal of destroying Hamas in the process, I cannot help but see what could be interpreted as support for a government whose sole stated purpose is to wipe my people off the face of the Earth. I *** know *** this is not what most people think or say or want, but it how it feels at a visceral level.

I am struggling to see how to combat all this when I think that Hamas is using civilians as shields and I can understand why that makes civilian targets, but I cannot wrap my mind around indiscriminate bombing of hospitals and refugee camps, even when there are Hamas terrorists embedded there. I have no idea what the solution is, because that is so clearly WRONG and immoral. And the casual anti-semitism I'm seeing (people letting anti-semitic remarks pass without saying anything, example after example of vandalism and threats) is scary as hell for me, and I'm not even really the target.

I'm not even sure I want to post this, because I am feeling pretty fragile right now, but I have been quiet on this issue here and I don't want to be.

[imimahoney]

Nov 10, 2023 20:17:26 GMT -5 erbear said:

some @@@ mentioned

I don't know how to say this and I'm not sure it's going to come out right. I hope it does. What I (Jewish, though not practicing anymore, supporter of a free Palestine, with a practicing Jewish best friend and many Jewish and Muslim students) am struggling with is this: If we can and should separate Palestinians from Hamas, condemn what's happening to them, feel deep empathy and anger in this moment, and see them as pawns (for lack of a better term) in a government hell bent on destroying Israel, we must also separate Jews worldwide from the Israeli government, condemn the well documented rise in anti-semitism , condemn what's happening to them, feel deep empathy and anger in this moment, and see them as pawns (for lack of a better term) in a government hell bent on destroying Gaza. I think people on here are doing this (for the most part), but it's not happening in my real world. When I see signs that say "I stand with Israel", without any mention of a condemnation of the actions of the Israeli government, I am uncomfortable, because while I stand with Israel as a rule, I do not in this moment agree with what the government is doing in Gaza. At the same time, when I see protests for "Free Palestine", without any mention of a goal of destroying Hamas in the process, I cannot help but see what could be interpreted as support for a government whose sole stated purpose is to wipe my people off the face of the Earth. I *** know *** this is not what most people think or say or want, but it how it feels at a visceral level.

I am struggling to see how to combat all this when I think that Hamas is using civilians as shields and I can understand why that makes civilian targets, but I cannot wrap my mind around indiscriminate bombing of hospitals and refugee camps, even when there are Hamas terrorists embedded there. I have no idea what the solution is, because that is so clearly WRONG and immoral. And the casual anti-semitism I'm seeing (people letting anti-semitic remarks pass without saying anything, example after example of vandalism and threats) is scary as hell for me, and I'm not even really the target.

I'm not even sure I want to post this, because I am feeling pretty fragile right now, but I have been quiet on this issue here and I don't want to be.

I feel so much of this. Difference being that I am observant and have spent time in Israel/with Israelis so I am seeing so much pro-Israel stuff on social media.

I don't think I have ever understood "both sides" of an event as much as I do now and it is so hard to manage.

[Deleted]

[mention]erbear [/mention] very well said. What it comes down to is that this is an incredibly complex issue, and it absolutely cannot (and should not) be reduced to one-line sound bites or poster slogans. While so many forces try to polarize this issue (traditional and social media, government policies, social factors), we really must resist the urge to reduce this to a black-and-white issue.