Rise of antisemitism

[imimahoney]

This doesn't really belong in the Israel war thread but if mods feel like it should be moved, that's fine.

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/29/mob-storms-dagestan-airport-in-search-of-jewish-passengers-from-israel

As someone who has family that escaped Russian pogroms this is fucking scary.

I'm also having a very hard time with what's going on at college campuses.

The line between speaking out against Israel's policies and war actions has veered into antisemitism so quickly. I'm just speechless.

[basilosaurus]

I was just coming on here to post about those 2 situations.

I don't know enough of the history to know how much of dagestan's leaders' statements are genuine, but at least on surface I thought their condemnations strong.

And fuck hypocrite desantis. Shuts down students for peace protests but refuses to condemn actual Nazis in his state.

[bronxgirl]

It's absolutely terrifying. Like most Jews I know, I've been on edge for the last couple weeks and it's hard to know when/ how to feel safe.

[AJL]

I’m glad this was posted. This has been at the forefront of my thoughts so much. I’m scared of the increasingly violent acts against Jews happening around the world.

I got my first rape threat in IG last week for what I posted about the war. It was definitely about me being Jewish. I have Jewish friends getting death threats on their socials. I’m worried about our synagogue being a target again. It was set on fire two years ago on Halloween 2021.

I’m constantly just waiting for the other shoe to drop in Jews here.

[penguingrrl]

It's terrifying to see this rise. I'm not Jewish, but grew up in a community with a large Jewish population and many of my friends growing up and now are/were Jewish and I'm scared and angry for my Jewish friends throughout the world. I'm so sorry for all of you who are more personally affected than I am and sending hugs. Please know that you and your families are in my thoughts and that I'm speaking out and doing what I can in this horrible environment, though it doesn't ever feel like enough.

[shopgirl07]

It’s horrible of course, but so, so disheartening. I saw that anti-Semitic events are up 388% this year. We’ve learned nothing from history. Nothing. Humans suck and I have very, very little hope.

[cap]

This is all so terrible and I'm so sorry that so many people are feeling so scared.

[Michelle]

The very idea that Jewish people in America should be the target of violence because of what the government of Israel is doing makes me so irate.

Are we all to be held to task for the actions of Trump!?! I should hope not!

Or for the actions of Christian Nationalists against so many groups? Again, I should hope not!

And then as people are rightfully in fear, there is misinformation going around. I adore and follow Mayim Bialik. But I'm also disappointed. She went to social media this weekend and said that at her alma mater, outside of the building where she took her doctoral hood, people chanted for a Jewish genocide. But video of the chants very clearly shows them saying, "Israel Israel you can't hide, we charge you with genocide."

Did the chants change along the way? Were they misunderstood? Was that an innocent mistake, or is it stoking the fire?

I think it is completely fair and reasonable for Palestinian and other students to protest Israel's actions without conflating it with being against every person who is Jewish.

Why does our society have to boil everything down to us v. them - there is no Venn Diagram anymore?

I'm mostly hand-wringing here, but if there is something I'm missing about this and something I can do to support innocent Palestinians as well as the greater diaspora of both Jewish and Muslim people who are obviously not responsible for Israel's actions nor terrorism, respectively, please let me know.

[scm1011]

I'm so sorry to everyone struggling. I got together Saturday with my Jewish bestie and she is not okay. I spent most of the afternoon just listening to her stream of consciousness fear/sadness and feeling helpless to help her. It's all so awful and I feel for everyone in the Jewish community.

[pixy0stix]

I'm watching the online discourse of friends slowly morph from anti-Isreal to antisemitism. These are friends whose voices I trust and amplify regarding historically marginalized groups. I'm not even sure they realize they've crossed a line. I'm speaking up as I see things, but it's not going well.

[imimahoney]

Oct 30, 2023 11:53:08 GMT -5 Michelle said:

The very idea that Jewish people in America should be the target of violence because of what the government of Israel is doing makes me so irate.

Are we all to be held to task for the actions of Trump!?! I should hope not!

Or for the actions of Christian Nationalists against so many groups? Again, I should hope not!

And then as people are rightfully in fear, there is misinformation going around. I adore and follow Mayim Bialik. But I'm also disappointed. She went to social media this weekend and said that at her alma mater, outside of the building where she took her doctoral hood, people chanted for a Jewish genocide. But video of the chants very clearly shows them saying, "Israel Israel you can't hide, we charge you with genocide."

Did the chants change along the way? Were they misunderstood? Was that an innocent mistake, or is it stoking the fire?

I think it is completely fair and reasonable for Palestinian and other students to protest Israel's actions without conflating it with being against every person who is Jewish.

Why does our society have to boil everything down to us v. them - there is no Venn Diagram anymore?

I'm mostly hand-wringing here, but if there is something I'm missing about this and something I can do to support innocent Palestinians as well as the greater diaspora of both Jewish and Muslim people who are obviously not responsible for Israel's actions nor terrorism, respectively, please let me know.

Well, this is a good example of how antisemitism and anti-Israel rhetoric often come together.

To Mayim and many Jews like herself, Israel is an integral piece of her faith. And to her, those chants were antisemitic. They weren't chanting Netanyahu's name or his fucked up war govt, they were chanting about all of Israel.

If they didn't want to make it about the entire country they shouldn't have used that slogan.

[wawa]

Oct 30, 2023 12:24:33 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

Oct 30, 2023 11:53:08 GMT -5 Michelle said:

The very idea that Jewish people in America should be the target of violence because of what the government of Israel is doing makes me so irate.

Are we all to be held to task for the actions of Trump!?! I should hope not!

Or for the actions of Christian Nationalists against so many groups? Again, I should hope not!

And then as people are rightfully in fear, there is misinformation going around. I adore and follow Mayim Bialik. But I'm also disappointed. She went to social media this weekend and said that at her alma mater, outside of the building where she took her doctoral hood, people chanted for a Jewish genocide. But video of the chants very clearly shows them saying, "Israel Israel you can't hide, we charge you with genocide."

Did the chants change along the way? Were they misunderstood? Was that an innocent mistake, or is it stoking the fire?

I think it is completely fair and reasonable for Palestinian and other students to protest Israel's actions without conflating it with being against every person who is Jewish.

Why does our society have to boil everything down to us v. them - there is no Venn Diagram anymore?

I'm mostly hand-wringing here, but if there is something I'm missing about this and something I can do to support innocent Palestinians as well as the greater diaspora of both Jewish and Muslim people who are obviously not responsible for Israel's actions nor terrorism, respectively, please let me know.

Well, this is a good example of how antisemitism and anti-Israel rhetoric often come together.

To Mayim and many Jews like herself, Israel is an integral piece of her faith. And to her, those chants were antisemitic. They weren't chanting Netanyahu's name or his fucked up war govt, they were chanting about all of Israel.

If they didn't want to make it about the entire country they shouldn't have used that slogan.

I struggle with this, I think because I am not at all a member of any mainstream religion so I don't understand deep down how you identify so closely with a country you don't live in because of your faith.  But I accept that many do.  Israel is a political entity and nation, as well as a place and...idea?  that is really culturally and religiously significant, right?  But it seems problematic all around (though a much MUCH bigger problem when it's coming from anti-Semites) that we can't seem to collectively clearly distinguish the difference between Israel the place, the people, and the political entity.  Certainly not in a snappy little chant.  It also provides handy cover for anti-Semitic dog whistles.  

The quick slide from clear distinction of disagreement with the specific action of the Israeli government to "those people" and generalized "they" rhetoric in the general discourse has been awfully fast. Like the more we learn about how dire things are for Palestinians in Gaza right now the less people care about the humanity of Jewish people in general.  Like it's a zero sum game. Only so much humanity to go around?  It fills me with rage and despair.

[sporklemotion]

Oct 30, 2023 12:24:33 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

Oct 30, 2023 11:53:08 GMT -5 Michelle said:

The very idea that Jewish people in America should be the target of violence because of what the government of Israel is doing makes me so irate.

Are we all to be held to task for the actions of Trump!?! I should hope not!

Or for the actions of Christian Nationalists against so many groups? Again, I should hope not!

And then as people are rightfully in fear, there is misinformation going around. I adore and follow Mayim Bialik. But I'm also disappointed. She went to social media this weekend and said that at her alma mater, outside of the building where she took her doctoral hood, people chanted for a Jewish genocide. But video of the chants very clearly shows them saying, "Israel Israel you can't hide, we charge you with genocide."

Did the chants change along the way? Were they misunderstood? Was that an innocent mistake, or is it stoking the fire?

I think it is completely fair and reasonable for Palestinian and other students to protest Israel's actions without conflating it with being against every person who is Jewish.

Why does our society have to boil everything down to us v. them - there is no Venn Diagram anymore?

I'm mostly hand-wringing here, but if there is something I'm missing about this and something I can do to support innocent Palestinians as well as the greater diaspora of both Jewish and Muslim people who are obviously not responsible for Israel's actions nor terrorism, respectively, please let me know.

Well, this is a good example of how antisemitism and anti-Israel rhetoric often come together.

To Mayim and many Jews like herself, Israel is an integral piece of her faith. And to her, those chants were antisemitic. They weren't chanting Netanyahu's name or his fucked up war govt, they were chanting about all of Israel.

If they didn't want to make it about the entire country they shouldn't have used that slogan.

I haven’t watched Mayim Bialik’s video, so I won’t speak to that specifically, but I have seen a lot of Jewish people’s concerns dismissed or attributed to misunderstanding. A (non-Jewish, leftish leaning but somewhat moderate) friend brought up the phrase “from the river to the sea” and noted its history, and people told him that Jewish people who found the phrase antisemitic were wrong, were misinterpreting it, etc. over and over again, I’m seeing Jewish people told that they are overreacting or misconstruing the situation.

To be clear, I’m not intending this as a disagreement with Michelle. It is more an observation I’ve had.

[imimahoney]

Oct 30, 2023 13:14:18 GMT -5 wawa said:

Oct 30, 2023 12:24:33 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

Well, this is a good example of how antisemitism and anti-Israel rhetoric often come together.

To Mayim and many Jews like herself, Israel is an integral piece of her faith. And to her, those chants were antisemitic. They weren't chanting Netanyahu's name or his fucked up war govt, they were chanting about all of Israel.

If they didn't want to make it about the entire country they shouldn't have used that slogan.

I struggle with this, I think because I am not at all a member of any mainstream religion so I don't understand deep down how you identify so closely with a country you don't live in because of your faith.  But I accept that many do.  Israel is a political entity and nation, as well as a place and...idea?  that is really culturally and religiously significant, right?  But it seems problematic all around (though a much MUCH bigger problem when it's coming from anti-Semites) that we can't seem to collectively clearly distinguish the difference between Israel the place, the people, and the political entity.  Certainly not in a snappy little chant.  It also provides handy cover for anti-Semitic dog whistles.  

The quick slide from clear distinction of disagreement with the specific action of the Israeli government to "those people" and generalized "they" rhetoric in the general discourse has been awfully fast. Like the more we learn about how dire things are for Palestinians in Gaza right now the less people care about the humanity of Jewish people in general.  Like it's a zero sum game. Only so much humanity to go around?  It fills me with rage and despair.

I struggle with it too, and I'm a Jew!

I think part of the inherent struggle is that non-Jews truly don't understand what Israel means to many, many Jewish people.

Israel is a promise, of safety and protection. But also of continuous struggle. When upon celebrating it's independence, it was immediately invaded. It is a country that continuously lives in fear of invasion. And has an awful policies in place because of that fear.

To many diaspora Jews, Israel is shared culture and faith even if they don't speak hebrew or practice Judaism. It's a place that gave homes to those who were kicked out of their homes. A place where survivors of mass genocide went to try and build a life. And a place where any Jew could return and live if they wanted to start their life over.

Israel's govt is truly awful and run by Trump-lite. It's foreign policy is fucked and has once again failed to make its people safe.

Thousands of Jews spent the summer protesting against Netanyahu's politics so it's not like every Israeli loves the guy.

I'm just rambling now and I'm not sure what else to say. I wish Netanyahu was gone just as much as I wish Hamas was gone.

[picksthemusic]

This is completely awful. I'm so, so sorry to all who feel scared and threatened.

No one should be afraid of being who they are.

[Michelle]

Oct 30, 2023 12:24:33 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

Oct 30, 2023 11:53:08 GMT -5 Michelle said:

The very idea that Jewish people in America should be the target of violence because of what the government of Israel is doing makes me so irate.

Are we all to be held to task for the actions of Trump!?! I should hope not!

Or for the actions of Christian Nationalists against so many groups? Again, I should hope not!

And then as people are rightfully in fear, there is misinformation going around. I adore and follow Mayim Bialik. But I'm also disappointed. She went to social media this weekend and said that at her alma mater, outside of the building where she took her doctoral hood, people chanted for a Jewish genocide. But video of the chants very clearly shows them saying, "Israel Israel you can't hide, we charge you with genocide."

Did the chants change along the way? Were they misunderstood? Was that an innocent mistake, or is it stoking the fire?

I think it is completely fair and reasonable for Palestinian and other students to protest Israel's actions without conflating it with being against every person who is Jewish.

Why does our society have to boil everything down to us v. them - there is no Venn Diagram anymore?

I'm mostly hand-wringing here, but if there is something I'm missing about this and something I can do to support innocent Palestinians as well as the greater diaspora of both Jewish and Muslim people who are obviously not responsible for Israel's actions nor terrorism, respectively, please let me know.

Well, this is a good example of how antisemitism and anti-Israel rhetoric often come together.

To Mayim and many Jews like herself, Israel is an integral piece of her faith. And to her, those chants were antisemitic. They weren't chanting Netanyahu's name or his fucked up war govt, they were chanting about all of Israel.

If they didn't want to make it about the entire country they shouldn't have used that slogan.

Is the phrase “we charge you with genocide” being interpreted as “we sentence you to genocide” instead of “we charge you with the crime of genocide?”

[underwaterrhymes]

Just terrible. 💔 I hate that there is so much hatred.

[fryjack2]

I saw video today of a white man in Harvard Square spewing awful antisemitic vitriol. Its as if what's going on has given people an excuse to justify their hate and show their antisemitism.

I live in a town with a large Jewish population, as OP knows. Someone posted on our town's FB asking why security was necessary at the Temples. People actually were arguing that they weren't needed. Past and current actions around the world show us that not only are they needed, more are needed.

I worry for the safety of all Jewish people everywhere, and especially those of you I "know" from here. In a town like mine where it may appear safer, it actually isn't. A few years ago when a man was sitting in his parked truck in the Trader Joe's parking lot in the center of town. He had antisemitic and racist bumper stickers that I won't retype, but scary enough that I called the police to report him.

[jlt19]

Oct 30, 2023 20:14:57 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

I saw video today of a white man in Harvard Square spewing awful antisemitic vitriol. Its as if what's going on has given people an excuse to justify their hate and show their antisemitism.

Sadly, I think this is it. This is like a perfect storm for bigots. They can spew their hate towards Jews or Muslims depending on the audience and it just makes them look like a sympathizer with the other.

[imimahoney]

Oct 30, 2023 18:26:21 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Oct 30, 2023 12:24:33 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

Well, this is a good example of how antisemitism and anti-Israel rhetoric often come together.

To Mayim and many Jews like herself, Israel is an integral piece of her faith. And to her, those chants were antisemitic. They weren't chanting Netanyahu's name or his fucked up war govt, they were chanting about all of Israel.

If they didn't want to make it about the entire country they shouldn't have used that slogan.

Is the phrase “we charge you with genocide” being interpreted as “we sentence you to genocide” instead of “we charge you with the crime of genocide?”

I don't know what Mayim thinks she heard vs what was said.

[Velar Fricative]

Oct 30, 2023 20:30:28 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Oct 30, 2023 20:14:57 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

I saw video today of a white man in Harvard Square spewing awful antisemitic vitriol. It’s as if what's going on has given people an excuse to justify their hate and show their antisemitism.

Sadly, I think this is it. This is like a perfect storm for bigots. They can spew their hate towards Jews or Muslims depending on the audience and it just makes them look like a sympathizer with the other.

I agree. Some elements of local protests I’ve seen have been slowly but surely veering towards what I feel as a non-Jew is antisemitic territory, and I feel like anyone with hate in their minds and hearts has found their golden opportunity to be loud and proud of that hate.

[formerlyak]

Oct 30, 2023 18:26:21 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Oct 30, 2023 12:24:33 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

Well, this is a good example of how antisemitism and anti-Israel rhetoric often come together.

To Mayim and many Jews like herself, Israel is an integral piece of her faith. And to her, those chants were antisemitic. They weren't chanting Netanyahu's name or his fucked up war govt, they were chanting about all of Israel.

If they didn't want to make it about the entire country they shouldn't have used that slogan.

Is the phrase “we charge you with genocide” being interpreted as “we sentence you to genocide” instead of “we charge you with the crime of genocide?”

Here is an article about the walkout with information about what was said.

dailybruin.com/2023/10/26/hundreds-of-ucla-students-participate-in-march-walkout-for-palestine

There was also a march on campus last night condemning antisemitism.

[cattledogkisses]

My heart goes out to everyone who feels unsafe.

It's disturbing how many people can't separate, or refuse to separate, the actions of the Netanyahu administration from Jewish people as a whole.

[AJL]

Oct 31, 2023 8:21:19 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

My heart goes out to everyone who feels unsafe.

It's disturbing how many people can't separate, or refuse to separate, the actions of the Netanyahu administration from Jewish people as a whole.

This isn’t really the same as separating Americans from Trump’s administration. Israel = Jews. Israel exists because we Jews need a safe homeland. Jews will always be associated with Israel and by extension, the actions of Israel. It has been this way for the last 75 years. Is it wrong? Of course! But it is our reality. I do not and have not ever agreed with discriminatory policies towards Palestinians. But that means nothing to anyone who finds out I’m a Jew and support the existence of a safe Jewish homeland.

Jews are hated around the world. We have been hated for millennia. We have been conquered, driven out, murdered, discriminated against, vilified, and scapegoated for our entire existence. Simply because a non-Jew doesn’t feel that way towards us doesn’t mean that’s not our lived experience. It will not change. How can it? Can you get nearly 8 billion people to give a shit about 16 million Jews? How are we so fucking powerful to inspire so much hatred against us? I think it’s because we haven’t been destroyed by any one conquering group. We continue to rise again and live for our children and our communities and the world.

This is just how it is.

[Bernadine]

I really do appreciate you all sharing your experiences, even when they’re painful. This board has really shaped my world view, for the better.

[msmerymac]

My stepmother is going to check on her parents’ headstone today, since there appears to have been some desecration of graves in the Jewish cemetery where they are buried, which may be related to antisemitism. At least, the maintenance person said he’s never seen anyone deface anything there in the last 25-30 years, so it’s kind of a big coincidence if unrelated…

[wildrice]

Oct 31, 2023 5:22:27 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Oct 30, 2023 20:30:28 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Sadly, I think this is it. This is like a perfect storm for bigots. They can spew their hate towards Jews or Muslims depending on the audience and it just makes them look like a sympathizer with the other.

I agree. Some elements of local protests I’ve seen have been slowly but surely veering towards what I feel as a non-Jew is antisemitic territory, and I feel like anyone with hate in their minds and hearts has found their golden opportunity to be loud and proud of that hate.

This is something I have concern about - my H and I are hoping to go to the "free Palestine" march on Washington this week, but we do NOT want to participate in anything supporting being anti-semetic or harmful to Jewish people at all, nor do I want any of the Jews in our networks to take it as a lack of support for them. It is supposed to be a call for a cease fire, which we do support strongly. But it makes me nervous not knowing exactly how that message is going to be shared.

[imimahoney]

Nov 1, 2023 11:50:32 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Oct 31, 2023 5:22:27 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I agree. Some elements of local protests I’ve seen have been slowly but surely veering towards what I feel as a non-Jew is antisemitic territory, and I feel like anyone with hate in their minds and hearts has found their golden opportunity to be loud and proud of that hate.

This is something I have concern about - my H and I are hoping to go to the "free Palestine" march on Washington this week, but we do NOT want to participate in anything supporting being anti-semetic or harmful to Jewish people at all, nor do I want any of the Jews in our networks to take it as a lack of support for them. It is supposed to be a call for a cease fire, which we do support strongly. But it makes me nervous not knowing exactly how that message is going to be shared.

I think if the message is ceasefire with no surrender from Hamas being mentioned but just Israel standing down, then Jewish people in your network might see it as antisemitism.

The failure to call out Hamas and demand their surrender just as forcefully as people are calling for Israel to stand down is one of the most commom things my friends are posting about.

[wildrice]

Nov 1, 2023 15:20:01 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

Nov 1, 2023 11:50:32 GMT -5 wildrice said:

This is something I have concern about - my H and I are hoping to go to the "free Palestine" march on Washington this week, but we do NOT want to participate in anything supporting being anti-semetic or harmful to Jewish people at all, nor do I want any of the Jews in our networks to take it as a lack of support for them. It is supposed to be a call for a cease fire, which we do support strongly. But it makes me nervous not knowing exactly how that message is going to be shared.

I think if the message is ceasefire with no surrender from Hamas being mentioned but just Israel standing down, then Jewish people in your network might see it as antisemitism.

The failure to call out Hamas and demand their surrender just as forcefully as people are calling for Israel to stand down is one of the most commom things my friends are posting about.

Thank you - that makes sense. We agree that Hamas should surrender/be removed, too, so that nuance is important - what we want is to cease the killing of innocents, of both nationalities/religions so you are right that ceasefire may not be quite the right term. I don't quite have enough information to know which message this march is going to be promoting. 

[Michelle]

Nov 1, 2023 15:20:01 GMT -5 imimahoney said:

Nov 1, 2023 11:50:32 GMT -5 wildrice said:

This is something I have concern about - my H and I are hoping to go to the "free Palestine" march on Washington this week, but we do NOT want to participate in anything supporting being anti-semetic or harmful to Jewish people at all, nor do I want any of the Jews in our networks to take it as a lack of support for them. It is supposed to be a call for a cease fire, which we do support strongly. But it makes me nervous not knowing exactly how that message is going to be shared.

I think if the message is ceasefire with no surrender from Hamas being mentioned but just Israel standing down, then Jewish people in your network might see it as antisemitism.

The failure to call out Hamas and demand their surrender just as forcefully as people are calling for Israel to stand down is one of the most commom things my friends are posting about.

Thank you for sharing this nuance. It seems so obvious as I look at it, but I don't know that I've been as thorough as I'd like to be on the Hamas point.