Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago

[pixy0stix]

Gift article

Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago

www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Ck0.jEjv.8mGZFzVtm9QU&smid=nytcore-android-share

This quote stood out to me:

Underpinning all these failures was a single, fatally inaccurate belief that Hamas lacked the capability to attack and would not dare to do so. That belief was so ingrained in the Israeli government, officials said, that they disregarded growing evidence to the contrary.

[fryjack2]

We knew this already, right?

Israel was also warned that Hamas was planning something immanent in the days leading up to the attack. And ignored the warnings. I think I linked articles in the other thread.

Netanyahu is no better than Hamas in terms of using his own people for his own self interests.

I hope that doesn’t sound like victim blaming. I’m not trying to do that.

[fryjack2]

And how infuriated must the woman analyst be that she was shushed and her analysis and warnings rebuffed.

[pixy0stix]

I don't think we knew the extent of just how much they knew. Or the extent of the Israeli hubris.

[AJL]

And we knew about the attacks on 9/11. What's done is done. Israelis and Palestinians deserve more than hindsight. They deserve leadership that is going to stop sacrificing them. I sincerely doubt that Israel is going to be ignoring any sign, no matter how small or how ambiguous going forward. This war will not end any time soon. Israel was caught with its pants down, so to speak, and that embarrassment and the brutality of the causalities because of it will not endear them to making peace.

I'm not advocating for continuing this war, but I am being a realist. This is going to get much worse before it gets better, for everyone involved.

[fryjack2]

AJL Completely agree. And I fear that whoever takes control in Palestine will be even more horrible than Hamas. I mean, I don't have much hope that Palestinians will be allowed back into Gaza and Israel will claim it and I think the West Bank is not far behind. But if this ceasefire holds, I'm not sure what will happen with the Palestinian governments.

What I am hoping for, and would be a miracle, is for the Israeli people and Palestinian people and the world to have had enough for the final time and demand peace, demand an end to the occupation, demand human rights, demand fair prosecution, demand an end to military occupation and brutality, and demand greater efforts to stop suicide bombings, and a fairly elected a non radical government for Palestinians. Governments on both sides that are willing to recognize each other and make hard concessions and allow their people peace.

[Bad Dingo]

Dec 1, 2023 6:55:16 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

What I am hoping for, and would be a miracle, is for the Israeli people and Palestinian people and the world to have had enough for the final time and demand peace, demand an end to the occupation, demand human rights, demand fair prosecution, demand an end to military occupation and brutality, and demand greater efforts to stop suicide bombings, and a fairly elected a non radical government for Palestinians. Governments on both sides that are willing to recognize each other and make hard concessions and allow their people peace.

So well said <3 <3.

[Bad Dingo]

It has been discussed since the beginning that there was a lot of evidence of the possibility of this attack: www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/

Focusing on the fact that there was evidence of a planned terrorist attack coupled with the circumstances in Gaza feels (in my opinion) like blaming the victims. What would you have had Israel do to stop Hammas? They left Gaza years ago, would you have wanted them to attack Gaza pre-emptively? I don't understand the gotcha wording of the OP honestly.

There has been SO MUCH disinformation. Many people don't believe that there was an attack on 10/7. Many people believe that it was the Israeli government that attacked the music festival. There has been no widespread condemnation of the violence and rape perpetuated against women (I have seen so many variations of - why would they bother raping women if they were in the middle of a battle?). It feels very much like - the lying Jews are lying because that's what they do and they deserve what they get.

[Bad Dingo]

Just to make sure that as many people as possible hate me (tongue in cheek), as a Jew, I feel no connection to Israel and would feel safer personally if it didn't exist.

I was raised supporting Palestinians (I was wearing keffiyah long before I had the understanding of what it meant), my mother visited the West Bank and Gaza multiple times through her university position to discuss the horrors faced by Palestinians and work on peaceful solutions back in the US.

What I have seen since 10/7 has brought to the forefront just how much Jews are still hated in the world, no matter what they do.

[pixy0stix]

All the evidence was ignored because of the deeply ingrained racial hatred of Palestinians.

If we want to compare it to 9/11, then let's compare it to 9/11. The US government ignored the warnings because they didn't think the terrorists were smart enough to organize an attack at that scale.

What should the Israeli government have done? Taken the threat seriously.

It's weird having a conversation on this board where we talk freely about racial and systemic oppression and how that influences decisions in the government and society top down... but then can't discuss it when it comes to the Israeli government.

[sproctopus]

Dec 1, 2023 9:30:02 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

It has been discussed since the beginning that there was a lot of evidence of the possibility of this attack: www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/

Focusing on the fact that there was evidence of a planned terrorist attack coupled with the circumstances in Gaza feels (in my opinion) like blaming the victims. What would you have had Israel do to stop Hammas? They left Gaza years ago, would you have wanted them to attack Gaza pre-emptively? I don't understand the gotcha wording of the OP honestly.

There has been SO MUCH disinformation. Many people don't believe that there was an attack on 10/7. Many people believe that it was the Israeli government that attacked the music festival. There has been no widespread condemnation of the violence and rape perpetuated against women (I have seen so many variations of - why would they bother raping women if they were in the middle of a battle?). It feels very much like - the lying Jews are lying because that's what they do and they deserve what they get.

I don't understand the feeling like it's victim blaming? It's government blaming.

I also don't understand what you mean by "they left Gaza years ago".

[Bad Dingo]

Dec 1, 2023 10:17:36 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

Dec 1, 2023 9:30:02 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

It has been discussed since the beginning that there was a lot of evidence of the possibility of this attack: www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/

Focusing on the fact that there was evidence of a planned terrorist attack coupled with the circumstances in Gaza feels (in my opinion) like blaming the victims. What would you have had Israel do to stop Hammas? They left Gaza years ago, would you have wanted them to attack Gaza pre-emptively? I don't understand the gotcha wording of the OP honestly.

There has been SO MUCH disinformation. Many people don't believe that there was an attack on 10/7. Many people believe that it was the Israeli government that attacked the music festival. There has been no widespread condemnation of the violence and rape perpetuated against women (I have seen so many variations of - why would they bother raping women if they were in the middle of a battle?). It feels very much like - the lying Jews are lying because that's what they do and they deserve what they get.

I don't understand the feeling like it's victim blaming? It's government blaming.

I also don't understand what you mean by "they left Gaza years ago".

The Israeli military left Gaza in 2005.  

[AJL]

Dec 1, 2023 10:05:59 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

All the evidence was ignored because of the deeply ingrained racial hatred of Palestinians.

If we want to compare it to 9/11, then let's compare it to 9/11. The US government ignored the warnings because they didn't think the terrorists were smart enough to organize an attack at that scale.

What should the Israeli government have done? Taken the threat seriously.

It's weird having a conversation on this board where we talk freely about racial and systemic oppression and how that influences decisions in the government and society top down... but then can't discuss it when it comes to the Israeli government.

Let’s do a thought exercise for a moment. Let’s say that Israel takes the threat seriously. They have this evidence that Hamas is going to do something incredibly violent to Israeli military (because that’s what the evidence in the article indicated.) Israel boosts their military presence along the border with Gaza. Then what? Does the presence of additional troops deter Hamas? Does Hamas pivot and decide to make their plan into a heavier rocket bombardment? Or maybe Hamas says “See! Israel is encroaching on us and trying to reoccupy Gaza! We can’t let this stand!” Maybe the international community starts to holler about how “imperialist” Israel is and how they want all the land in the territories for themselves. And that’s just the PR wars.

So instead Israel decides to go on the offensive and squash any violence by bombing the shit out of Gaza with no actual provocation from Hamas. They do this because intelligence has gathered that there is a plan but there are no details of when the plan is going to be carried out. Just a plan. Now Israel has started hostilities back up with Hamas and Hamas is feeling justified to retaliate in defense of itself and Gaza. Because it has the right to defend itself, correct?

All of this is moot, though. Because regardless of what Israel chose to do with that information it would still be in a shit position of getting into a violent exchange with Hamas. And Israel isn’t “ignoring” the intelligence because it’s racist. It underestimated the capabilities and support Hamas has. I don’t know anyone who is an expert or at the least extremely well informed on Middle East geopolitics who thinks Hamas and Palestinians are some collection of backwoods hicks who are trying to go up against a 21st century military power with sticks and rocks and Molotov cocktails. Hamas is quite sophisticated and incredibly well funded.

I’m getting frustrated that on this board no one is willing to actually talk about the “what then?” regarding this intelligence information or a permanent ceasefire, etc.

[pixy0stix]

We can't do a rational thought process because at the core, the Israeli military does not think of the Palestinians as human. All it takes is looking at the documented cases from several respected international agencies of the Israeli army raping/killing/maiming citizens.

@@@@@@

Do you know how many reports I found when just researching the average age of Gazans of Israeli snipers shooting kids playing? It was overwhelming.

You don't sanction and explain away the maiming and killing of children for decades without something being deeply wrong.

[fryjack2]

AJL. Can you elaborate on your last sentence in your response to pixie? I’d love to discuss long term ceasefire and what next. It just didn’t seem like that was going to be an actuality anytime soon so seems a little pointless or callous when so much other stuff was happening that points to the end of Gaza for Palestinians. Your point about Israel having no good options even with knowing the information is so true. I do wonder if they had shared the intel with the world when they knew it, if something else would have transpired. Probably an earlier start of war? Or even bigger war? I naive when it comes to world military strategies and it’s very depressing to think about.

Bad Dingo- I have seen very few mentions of rapes and sexual assaults in news articles or social media accounts- I don’t know why it’s not being reported like it should have been. I have seen more about it in the last couple of weeks, though. I’m trying to follow more accounts and read more news sources as to not have as much bias in info. And I’m thankful to my Jewish friends who post from their viewpoint and sources they follow.

When people post in here (these boards) it’s great for spreading awareness. especially since so many of us live in bubbles. I know I’m privileged with diversity where I live. In my town, we aren’t seeing the level of open antisemitism as other places around the country. It does exist and happens here, but most of the sentiment is supportive of Israel and Jewish community and to be honest, anything pro-Palestinian rights is not allowed (like event organized by college students), labeled antisemitic, or what about 0ct 7th to delegitimize.

Our town members did just get together and paint over a huge “fuck palestine” graffiti posted in huge letters along a popular walkway in the heart of town. After the dpw and police department ignored rhe many requests to have it removed we did it ourselves on Tuesday. And a home that had a Palestinian flag had black paint thrown on it with no arrests.

The more people talk to each other, the better off we are. I’m seeing more debates on Facebook mention getting together in person to have real conversations. I see that as a good thing. Discussions here are great, but they do lack a bit of connection that can only be had in person.

I truly wish we had seen a more permanent ceasefire. I don’t know where we go from here.

[AJL]

Dec 1, 2023 11:49:07 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

We can't do a rational thought process because at the core, the Israeli military does not think of the Palestinians as human. All it takes is looking at the documented cases from several respected international agencies of the Israeli army raping/killing/maiming citizens.

@@@@@@

Do you know how many reports I found when just researching the average age of Gazans of Israeli snipers shooting kids playing? It was overwhelming.

You don't sanction and explain away the maiming and killing of children for decades without something being deeply wrong.

I’m well aware of the reports of human rights violations by the IDF and the Israeli government. That doesn’t preclude people from having a discussion about this issue. But you don’t want that. Most people don’t. I get it. So here’s what I say: Fine. Whatever you say. You have clearly done a lot of research to support your position and I’ll leave you to it. This war will not end anytime soon. It will not end until one group concedes to the other and neither is backing down. Israel will fight to its own death if it has to. Hamas has demonstrated it is willing to do the same. It is a tragedy of epic proportions and I hate all of it, but I won’t be naive about it either.

[pixy0stix]

@@@@

And if we want to do a comparison to the US, I can pull up the psychological trauma of the US troops killing Iraqi kids for throwing rocks and/or thinking they had bombs. It lead to substantial othering in the military. I believe they had to change engagement after it became widely known.

[fryjack2]

Bad Dingo- where are you seeing people claiming Oct 7th didn’t happen? That’s insane and the level of 9/11 and Newtown not happening claims. I mean, Hamas has admitted to the attack, FFS. Or do they think that is fake as well.

As for believing that Israel attacked their own people at the festival, that was also admitted. It was hard to differentiate who was who from articles I’ve read quoting Israeli military but they weren’t the main planners and attackers of the festival. I don’t know anyone who believes that, I’m sorry that you do or are seeing those ridiculous claims

Misinformation is for sure abundant. Just look at the ignorant, false posts that Rachel Zoe and Sarah Foster continue to post.

[AJL]

fryjack2, I'll be happy to expand on my comment about "then what" when I get back this evening. I'm on my way to go sit in on a hearing, but when I get back I'll explain further.

[Michelle]

Dec 1, 2023 11:32:40 GMT -5 AJL said:

Dec 1, 2023 10:05:59 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

All the evidence was ignored because of the deeply ingrained racial hatred of Palestinians.

If we want to compare it to 9/11, then let's compare it to 9/11. The US government ignored the warnings because they didn't think the terrorists were smart enough to organize an attack at that scale.

What should the Israeli government have done? Taken the threat seriously.

It's weird having a conversation on this board where we talk freely about racial and systemic oppression and how that influences decisions in the government and society top down... but then can't discuss it when it comes to the Israeli government.

Let’s do a thought exercise for a moment. Let’s say that Israel takes the threat seriously. They have this evidence that Hamas is going to do something incredibly violent to Israeli military (because that’s what the evidence in the article indicated.) Israel boosts their military presence along the border with Gaza. Then what? Does the presence of additional troops deter Hamas? Does Hamas pivot and decide to make their plan into a heavier rocket bombardment? Or maybe Hamas says “See! Israel is encroaching on us and trying to reoccupy Gaza! We can’t let this stand!” Maybe the international community starts to holler about how “imperialist” Israel is and how they want all the land in the territories for themselves. And that’s just the PR wars.

So instead Israel decides to go on the offensive and squash any violence by bombing the shit out of Gaza with no actual provocation from Hamas. They do this because intelligence has gathered that there is a plan but there are no details of when the plan is going to be carried out. Just a plan. Now Israel has started hostilities back up with Hamas and Hamas is feeling justified to retaliate in defense of itself and Gaza. Because it has the right to defend itself, correct?

All of this is moot, though. Because regardless of what Israel chose to do with that information it would still be in a shit position of getting into a violent exchange with Hamas. And Israel isn’t “ignoring” the intelligence because it’s racist. It underestimated the capabilities and support Hamas has. I don’t know anyone who is an expert or at the least extremely well informed on Middle East geopolitics who thinks Hamas and Palestinians are some collection of backwoods hicks who are trying to go up against a 21st century military power with sticks and rocks and Molotov cocktails. Hamas is quite sophisticated and incredibly well funded.

I’m getting frustrated that on this board no one is willing to actually talk about the “what then?” regarding this intelligence information or a permanent ceasefire, etc.

I really appreciate the thought exercise.

What could Israel do? Could they have cautioned against holding the festival, due to elevated threat level?

Could they have beefed up their "shield" in that area with a very public statement that there is intel of elevated Hamas threats and Israel will respond in kind? That puts Hamas in the position of having to stand down, OR go forward with their plans and it alleviates Israel of some of the bad press for their show of force - at least they tried to handle with diplomacy/talks first?

At a minimum, allowing the festival to happen when they knew there were threats seems like they created a whole crowd of sacrificial lambs unnecessarily.

[fryjack2]

Bad Dingo. I know many Jewish people who feel no connection to Israel. It’s not part of their identity as a Jew, and gets complicated when war breaks out. But it’s understandable why it is for so many others.

I am an atheist with a Muslim father and Christian mother. My religion (or lack of) doesn’t influence my thoughts on what happens in Palestine/Israel. My family member don’t connect the wars to religion, but to land. They acknowledge that religious places exist in the land making it much more complicated, but it’s not a religious war to them. I hope that makes sense. I can clarify more if not.

This article is making its rounds in a group I am in. Many Jewish members in the group are echoing this student’s thoughts.

vtcynic.com/opinion/im-an-anti-zionist-jew-theres-no-community-for-me-on-campus/