Who do you think will be President on Feb. 1st 2025?

[sonrisa]

Jan 11, 2024 8:19:48 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

Jan 11, 2024 7:11:24 GMT -5 erbear said:

There is no world in which the Dems are going to run a different candidate 10 months before the most important election. Biden isn’t the sexiest candidate in the world, but you don’t always get a Tik Tok government, and the young voters need to understand that politics is give and take since their wants and needs aren’t the only ones that matter. The party should certainly try to court them, as they are a key voting bloc, but to cater solely to the 18-25 voters, who vote irregularly anyway, is a mistake. I have worked with this generation for years. I love their passion. But seeing beyond themselves has not been a strong point.

Now get off my lawn

I would say this isn't unique to that generation...Gen X, Millennials, Boomers are absolutely the same way.


Every election the older generations dismiss the power of the younger generations, and now is not the time to do so. The Dems need to try hard, much harder to get them out to vote. 

True.

The disillusionment described isn't new either. (almost) every young generation feels like politics is meaningless, the candidates are all the same and it isn't worth their vote and if they don't show up the powers that be will learn to value them more.

But of course that isn't what happens when people don't show. The only person who benefits is whoever you like least since they get one less vote against them.

Working to keep you disenfranchised or disinterested is a winning strategy.

[mrsukyankee]

turkturkleton, that is why I say to people to look to the UK. We are losing everything due to protest votes around Brexit and our central gov't. Everything. And even if we got someone liberal in now, there is no way for them to make it better - the NHS is almost done and too much has been sold to private companies for us to come back to it. The environmental costs of having the Tories come back in is something that will take at least a generation or two to fix (destroying rivers and other bodies of water and land for profit by the Tories). If our countries had voted both locally and nationally for our centre party and not for Brexit, I can assure you that things would be so much better for everyone. Perhaps? No, but better. And then we could have been able to move more liberally, especially locally. And that's how they need to do it - work toward making things more 'liberal' locally. Feel passionate about it, run locally or do something that shows your passion. But voting for Trump, or not voting at all, may mean that not only do you get Trump, but you may also get a Republic right wing House and Senate as well as right wing local parties in charge, and then you may lose your ability to vote for anything meaningful for a long time. And if one of the Judges dies or leaves during this time, then you are screwing your generation and others for an even longer time (see Roe v Wade now versus what it could have been if Trump hadn't gotten in the first time). Burning it all down doesn't work. It just doesn't. Moving incrementally and pushing for things locally can.

[erbear]

Jan 12, 2024 5:55:19 GMT -5 mrsukyankee said:

turkturkleton, that is why I say to people to look to the UK. We are losing everything due to protest votes around Brexit and our central gov't. Everything. And even if we got someone liberal in now, there is no way for them to make it better - the NHS is almost done and too much has been sold to private companies for us to come back to it. The environmental costs of having the Tories come back in is something that will take at least a generation or two to fix (destroying rivers and other bodies of water and land for profit by the Tories). If our countries had voted both locally and nationally for our centre party and not for Brexit, I can assure you that things would be so much better for everyone. Perhaps? No, but better. And then we could have been able to move more liberally, especially locally. And that's how they need to do it - work toward making things more 'liberal' locally. Feel passionate about it, run locally or do something that shows your passion. But voting for Trump, or not voting at all, may mean that not only do you get Trump, but you may also get a Republic right wing House and Senate as well as right wing local parties in charge, and then you may lose your ability to vote for anything meaningful for a long time. And if one of the Judges dies or leaves during this time, then you are screwing your generation and others for an even longer time (see Roe v Wade now versus what it could have been if Trump hadn't gotten in the first time). Burning it all down doesn't work. It just doesn't. Moving incrementally and pushing for things locally can.

Right. I see this parallel so clearly too. Voting for Brexit because burning it all down is sexy…then what? I’ve heard people argue that they want people to experience how they feel and maybe they’ll see, which I see true point of…in theory…but who does that help if everyone is suffering? Does that make it better?

PDQ this part: I work in a place where a lot of the current admin is much younger than me. They have come in with IDEAS and THOUGHTS. They have burned it down but it’s become increasingly obvious that they have no plan to build it back up. So now what, when you’ve allowed Trump back in office to make your point — when does the next phase begin?

If I saw a progressive candidate with a plan that isn’t just criticism of the current plan, I’d be all over that. But I don’t see it right now as the election is around the corner.

[TR]

turkturkleton - thank you for your thoughtful response! I truly appreciate it. I can see how they're thinking things are already bad for them, that makes a lot of sense and I feel dumb for not thinking of that myself. I guess I worry about Trump creating policies or dismantling systems enough that will make it even harder to get a properly liberal candidate elected even if the Dems could rally around one. Or god forbid, with a sympathetic Congress, somehow installing himself as a dictator like Putin. But that's all hypothetical and we could go all day with those so maybe that's not something to dwell on. Again, thank you for responding sincerely.

[tacokick]

Jan 12, 2024 2:16:05 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Jan 11, 2024 8:19:48 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

I would say this isn't unique to that generation...Gen X, Millennials, Boomers are absolutely the same way.


Every election the older generations dismiss the power of the younger generations, and now is not the time to do so. The Dems need to try hard, much harder to get them out to vote. 

True.

The disillusionment described isn't new either. (almost) every young generation feels like politics is meaningless, the candidates are all the same and it isn't worth their vote and if they don't show up the powers that be will learn to value them more.

But of course that isn't what happens when people don't show. The only person who benefits is whoever you like least since they get one less vote against them.

Working to keep you disenfranchised or disinterested is a winning strategy.

I actually don’t think a lot of the Democrats (and would be Democrats) who don’t want to vote for Biden are disinterested. They voted for him because they had to last time and hoped they wouldn’t have to do it again.

People are very angry about Palestine, policing, healthcare access, and how he continues to (not) handle Covid among other big issues. It’s hard to want to vote for someone who you feel is literally killing your people.

A lot of people held out hope that Biden wouldn’t run again and Trump would be in prison and here we are again except now we know what kind of president Biden would be and a lot of people don’t like it. Voting for someone you don’t like and who you think is making your life worse just because he’s not the other, even worse guy is not very inspiring but it’s all voters have been given for years.

[pugz]

I literally cannot think about it because it spikes my anxiety. So much unknown, so much shit has gone down the last 4 years

[sonrisa]

Jan 12, 2024 10:03:31 GMT -5 tacokick said:

Jan 12, 2024 2:16:05 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

True.

The disillusionment described isn't new either. (almost) every young generation feels like politics is meaningless, the candidates are all the same and it isn't worth their vote and if they don't show up the powers that be will learn to value them more.

But of course that isn't what happens when people don't show. The only person who benefits is whoever you like least since they get one less vote against them.

Working to keep you disenfranchised or disinterested is a winning strategy.

I actually don’t think a lot of the Democrats (and would be Democrats) who don’t want to vote for Biden are disinterested. They voted for him because they had to last time and hoped they wouldn’t have to do it again.

People are very angry about Palestine, policing, healthcare access, and how he continues to (not) handle Covid among other big issues. It’s hard to want to vote for someone who you feel is literally killing your people.

A lot of people held out hope that Biden wouldn’t run again and Trump would be in prison and here we are again except now we know what kind of president Biden would be and a lot of people don’t like it. Voting for someone you don’t like and who you think is making your life worse just because he’s not the other, even worse guy is not very inspiring but it’s all voters have been given for years.

I just meant historically sitting out an election because of either disinterest or disillusionment (which can definitely escalate up to fury) end up looking the same for election outcomes: it's something that benefits (and is cultivated by) the GOP.

In contrast, voting at the lower levels for people who align with your values is much more effective for getting heard than sitting out. (case in point: the squad. They weren't saying anything new. But they got into the halls where people heard them saying it). 

[babsbunny]

Jan 11, 2024 21:29:37 GMT -5 turkturkleton said:

I routinely hear the argument that the most marginalized groups of people will suffer most if they don't suck it up and continue to vote whoever runs as a D from privileged (often white) voters, yet the actual people I know who belong to those groups say they don't see much difference in their daily lives. They already can't afford meaningful healthcare, even with the ACA. They can't afford or access abortion care anyway. They can't get their student loans forgiven, because they never qualified to get them in the first place. And on and on, in every area of life.

When I read this list, my immediate thought was that these were all things Dems pushed forward but then Rs reduced. The Pres is just one person. Dems have to have Senate and House and Supreme Court majority to make the changes people want, and state's have the same setup, plus every politician has a staff of people. Politics isn't one person. If Dems really are the majority in the US, then we need a slogan like "a dem in every seat" and get out the vote every single voting opportunity, and recognize it will take YEARS to accomplish.

I think the sad truth is that Dems aren't the majority. Even with a gigantic Gen Z, many could be from rural families who generally vote R (or NRA or Christian/"family" values). Biden winning by 7M is nice, but those votes could be from a few concentrated areas which is why the rest of the country's seats are Rs. 

[Velar Fricative]

I definitely do agree with turkturkleton that we should not be dismissive of Gen Z's needs and wants.

I can't speak for other states, but staunchly-blue NY has the GOP here believing there's a chance to gain power here. Hell, their MAGA candidate came embarrassingly close to defeating our incumbent D governor in 2022. It wasn't because more people suddenly became MAGA cult followers - it's because, fair or not, they see problems in their lives and the Ds are in charge, so you vote for someone else just to see if that shakes things up to improve your lot in life. People who still hold liberal beliefs voted for the MAGA guy because of crime, immigration, inflation, and lack of hope for the future. We can't dismiss that.

Interestingly, if you listen to a recent Daily episode about Biden's plan for the 2024 election, the downfall of democracy just simply doesn't resonate with voters according to campaign surveying. If I'm a 19-year-old voter who sees that I'll probably never be able to move out of my parent's house, have little hope for a career of my choosing, @@might not be able to afford to have kids if I think I eventually want them@@, etc. and I see who's in charge right now, I'm going to either vote to figuratively blow it all up or just not vote at all.

[neverfstop]

Jan 12, 2024 11:27:08 GMT -5 babsbunny said:

Jan 11, 2024 21:29:37 GMT -5 turkturkleton said:

When I read this list, my immediate thought was that these were all things Dems pushed forward but then Rs reduced. The Pres is just one person. Dems have to have Senate and House and Supreme Court majority to make the changes people want, and state's have the same setup, plus every politician has a staff of people. Politics isn't one person. If Dems really are the majority in the US, then we need a slogan like "a dem in every seat" and get out the vote every single voting opportunity, and recognize it will take YEARS to accomplish.

I think the sad truth is that Dems aren't the majority. Even with a gigantic Gen Z, many could be from rural families who generally vote R (or NRA or Christian/"family" values). Biden winning by 7M is nice, but those votes could be from a few concentrated areas which is why the rest of the country's seats are Rs. 

I disagree.  The Dem's aren't in control in as many places because of gerrymandering.  Once the GOP has a majority in a state, they work for distill and reduce the power and (voting) influence of any remaining Dems in an area ( see any state in the south).  

[sonrisa]

Jan 12, 2024 11:58:51 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I definitely do agree with turkturkleton that we should not be dismissive of Gen Z's needs and wants. 

No. We can't. But I don't have faith that the democratic party will do what it needs to do to meet those needs. 

[babsbunny]

Agree neverfstop. It's possible Dems are a majority.

My perspective is due to seeing TX politics and could be limited.

[turkturkleton]

Jan 12, 2024 5:55:19 GMT -5 mrsukyankee said:

turkturkleton , that is why I say to people to look to the UK. We are losing everything due to protest votes around Brexit and our central gov't. Everything. And even if we got someone liberal in now, there is no way for them to make it better - the NHS is almost done and too much has been sold to private companies for us to come back to it. The environmental costs of having the Tories come back in is something that will take at least a generation or two to fix (destroying rivers and other bodies of water and land for profit by the Tories). If our countries had voted both locally and nationally for our centre party and not for Brexit, I can assure you that things would be so much better for everyone. Perhaps? No, but better. And then we could have been able to move more liberally, especially locally. And that's how they need to do it - work toward making things more 'liberal' locally. Feel passionate about it, run locally or do something that shows your passion. But voting for Trump, or not voting at all, may mean that not only do you get Trump, but you may also get a Republic right wing House and Senate as well as right wing local parties in charge, and then you may lose your ability to vote for anything meaningful for a long time. And if one of the Judges dies or leaves during this time, then you are screwing your generation and others for an even longer time (see Roe v Wade now versus what it could have been if Trump hadn't gotten in the first time). Burning it all down doesn't work. It just doesn't. Moving incrementally and pushing for things locally can.

I'm not going to tell people how to handle their own marginalisation. I won't tell them it's their responsibility to help fix a system that does everything it can to exclude them. I won't lecture at them about potential consequences they are already aware of as if they are simply uninformed.

I also never said anything about lower-level elections. I didn't say they would not vote at all, for anyone. I've found it to be the opposite, that local and state elections have a much greater impact on their lives. Not voting for Biden does not mean they don't vote or are throwing their votes away. 

I was mostly just responding to combat the notion I saw more than once in this thread that Gen Z is super excited to vote for Biden. That is the exact opposite of the things I've heard. Maybe the people I know are the outliers, but I wanted to offer that perspective. The Democratic party has a history of complacency and assuming their base will turn up for them. They don't seemed to have learned from 2016 that they're playing a dangerous game by refusing to address the real issues people have with the party/candidate and continuing on as they always have. I also don't expect them to learn it before November if they haven't yet.

The prevailing mindset is that the oppressed are not responsible for fixing their own oppression. Until it's an election year, and then the message is that they need to fall in line, do the work, and hope we'll get around to them eventually. 

[erbear]

I’m not sure I see anyone in this thread saying they think Gen Z is coming out hard for Biden — exactly the opposite. I think people are (rightfully) thinking they won’t

[basilosaurus]

Jan 12, 2024 14:04:28 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Jan 12, 2024 11:27:08 GMT -5 babsbunny said:

When I read this list, my immediate thought was that these were all things Dems pushed forward but then Rs reduced. The Pres is just one person. Dems have to have Senate and House and Supreme Court majority to make the changes people want, and state's have the same setup, plus every politician has a staff of people. Politics isn't one person. If Dems really are the majority in the US, then we need a slogan like "a dem in every seat" and get out the vote every single voting opportunity, and recognize it will take YEARS to accomplish.

I think the sad truth is that Dems aren't the majority. Even with a gigantic Gen Z, many could be from rural families who generally vote R (or NRA or Christian/"family" values). Biden winning by 7M is nice, but those votes could be from a few concentrated areas which is why the rest of the country's seats are Rs. 

I disagree.  The Dem's aren't in control in as many places because of gerrymandering.  Once the GOP has a majority in a state, they work for distill and reduce the power and (voting) influence of any remaining Dems in an area ( see any state in the south).  

Yes, overwhelmingly people lean democratic (or at least anti GOP). We don't want our reproductive rights taken away. We don't want insurrection.

But when it comes to voting power, these voices are silenced. You get instead the empty greenes of the world shouting. You have Mike Johnson in fucking control. You have a disgusting surpreme court that doesn't represent most people. 

[turkturkleton]

Jan 12, 2024 21:33:59 GMT -5 erbear said:

I’m not sure I see anyone in this thread saying they think Gen Z is coming out hard for Biden — exactly the opposite. I think people are (rightfully) thinking they won’t

I probably should have quoted them originally, but these were the two comments that caught my attention:

Jan 10, 2024 10:21:56 GMT -5 ellipses84 said:

I think more Rs will not vote for dumpster fire again and the social/ environmental /abortion issues are so great to those under 40 and women, they will vote D regardless of who the candidate is and not stay home due.

Jan 10, 2024 10:25:54 GMT -5 dutchgirl678 said:

Gen Z is pumped up to vote for him.

[mrsukyankee]

turkturkleton , that's fair. I don't pressure people to vote for someone they don't want, but I will remind them that they are actually WORSE OFF if they don't vote based on what I've seen and talked to them about (in the UK - I can't speak for the US). Right now things are getting even worse with our right wing conservative gov't, who are looking to remove even more money from the poor and give it to the rich. Believe me, they would have been in a much better place if the centre party (which was more left centre at the time) was voted in. The middle class would have been better off. Everyone, except the very wealthy would have been better off. Dramatically? No. But a lot of people would not be in the food pantry lines today, there wouldn't have been as many hate crimes, and people would have kept their benefits. If we hadn't burnt it down with Brexit, the EU would have continued to give funding to our poorest areas, who believed the Brexiters that they would fill the gaps - NOPE. So many reasons why we should be used as an example of how burning it down actually harms everyone and even more so those who are marginalised and poor. (it's usually the white middle class people who are the burners over here and now they are seeing some of the results in their own lives...and I want to smack them)

Maybe, eventually, we'll be able to have a more progressive gov't, but with our voting system, it won't happen. We're a two, maybe three at times, party system. Until we change the system entirely (doubtful to happen any time soon), we're going to have a centre to centre left party in charge at the best. And if we can keep them in power for long enough, perhaps we can pressure them, by our voting in the local elections, to move more to the left. It was happening but not fast enough for some people who then decided to burn it all down and screw us all.

[morecoffeeplease]

Maybe it’s because of where I live but I think it’ll be Trump or whoever the R nomination is.

Middle of the road democrats in my area are complaining about how much things cost and right or wrong, they blame Biden. People more to the left are pissed about his handling of Palestine.

I live in an extremely red area so I realize republican talking points are more in my face than other areas but even democrats here are over Biden.

I don’t think there will be a dem president which gives me such anxiety.

[dutchgirl678]

If you look at recent midterms and special elections, Dems have overperformed. Polls and media said otherwise. Especially on college campuses the participation was way up.

Also, the Biden campaign just raised a record amount of money for the reelection campaign.

www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/01/15/joe-biden-raises-97-million-fourth-quarter/72226821007/

Don’t get complacent, but don’t feel like we are already lost.