@Shooters Parents on Trial

[icedcoffee]

@

Has anyone been following this trial? I hope they lock both parents up. They’re trying the parents of the Oxford HS shooter. They BOUGHT him the gun. These people are not fit for society IMO.



www.cbsnews.com/amp/detroit/news/watch-live-trial-of-jennifer-crumbley-mother-of-oxford-high-school-shooter-continues-with-third-day-of-testimony/

[minzy]

I have not been watching super closely but my lawyer friends who are are giving serious side eye to the defense attorney’s performance so far:

www.fox2detroit.com/news/jennifer-crumbleys-attorney-compares-oxford-shooting-charges-to-taylor-swift-song

www.fox2detroit.com/video/1401781.amp

[icedcoffee]

minzy, Yes, she's not doing them any favors. LOL

[jeaniebueller]

They are closing right now, not sure who else has been watching. The prosecutor's case is really flimsy IMO. Also, i was somewhat surprised at the info that came out at trial that either the media got wrong, or presented without context. Like.....i've been watching quite a bit and will not be surprised if they acquit her and honestly if that's the case, i'm not convinced they should have charged her. The prosecutor's closing was underwhelming, their cross exam of Jennifer did not elicit anything new and I think it hurt their case. First, the school principal testified that they did not have reasonable suspicion to search his bag, the counselor testified that they never asked her to take him home, apparently there was a prior note he wrote that they were concerned about but the counselor (in his e-mails) did not make ita priority to talk to ethan and i don't think they told his parents about it. There was a lot of implying that she didn't spend a lot of time with him, which she probably didn't, but it came out like she was a bad mom for having a social life and having an affair. For example, He asked Jennifer about a time when she went to a halloween party and ethan didn't want to go so he stayed home. No clue what point that was making. Were they bad/negligent parents? YES! But grossly negligent to convict them of a crime? I don't know. Has anyone else been watching?

[1confused1]

Convicted of manslaughter.

Edited: involuntary manslaughter

[sugarbear1]

Feb 6, 2024 13:47:34 GMT -5 1confused1 said:

Convicted of manslaughter.

GOOD.

[hermione]

I am shocked they found her guilty!

[timorousbeastie]

Feb 6, 2024 13:47:34 GMT -5 1confused1 said:

Convicted of manslaughter.

Edited: involuntary manslaughter

Good.

This case is fairly local to me. In the hours after the shooting, before anything had been released publicly about the shooter, the local Facebook group for my area was full of stories from people who knew the family, stories that at best painted the parents as horribly neglectful and emotionally abusive. Many of these stories were later confirmed by the news.

They knew he was struggling with his mental health. They did nothing to help him. Instead they bought him a gun. They knew he had access to the gun, but said nothing when talking with the school about his note/drawings, and just left him at school rather than immediately getting him help. The mother blamed the school for not searching his bag, but a) she didn’t tell them about the gun, and b) she could have easily looked in his bag herself but didn’t. They went on the run, abandoning their child in jail, possibly trying to flee to Canada, rather than staying to do what they could to help support their son.

I am very, very glad that she was found guilty. I hope the father will be, too.

[simpsongal]

Feb 6, 2024 14:26:36 GMT -5 timorousbeastie said:

Feb 6, 2024 13:47:34 GMT -5 1confused1 said:

Convicted of manslaughter.

Edited: involuntary manslaughter

Good.

This case is fairly local to me. In the hours after the shooting, before anything had been released publicly about the shooter, the local Facebook group for my area was full of stories from people who knew the family, stories that at best painted the parents as horribly neglectful and emotionally abusive. Many of these stories were later confirmed by the news.

They knew he was struggling with his mental health. They did nothing to help him. Instead they bought him a gun. They knew he had access to the gun, but said nothing when talking with the school about his note/drawings, and just left him at school rather than immediately getting him help. The mother blamed the school for not searching his bag, but a) she didn’t tell them about the gun, and b) she could have easily looked in his bag herself but didn’t. They went on the run, abandoning their child in jail, possibly trying to flee to Canada, rather than staying to do what they could to help support their son.

I am very, very glad that she was found guilty. I hope the father will be, too.

I think I said this in a thread when the case/charges were being filed, the facts read like a law school exam. Like an unexpected/stretch application of the law but to extreme this-will-never-happen-in-reality factual circumstances. WTF to these parents....glad they convicted.

[icedcoffee]

Thank god. These parents are horrible. I hope the dad is convicted too. Fuck them.

[Velar Fricative]

What gives me pause about this trial and the verdict was that her son was tried and convicted as an adult. How could she be criminally responsible if he was an “adult”? I’m shocked she’s guilty.

[ssmjlm]

Feb 6, 2024 18:48:55 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

What gives me pause about this trial and the verdict was that her son was tried and convicted as an adult. How could she be criminally responsible if he was an “adult”? I’m shocked she’s guilty.

Maybe it’s like driving the getaway car?

Or the way he was tried as an adult, but lot legally one?


Let this set a precedent that goes far and wide. The mom of the kindergartner in Virginia was charged and will do time.

[isabel]

Ok, but did you guys watch her attorney’s closing? Because that was fucking wild. @sharonsaysso has a bunch of clips in her stories today.

[pumpkin]

I heard part of an interview with a juror and they mentioned that one of the things that really pushed them to their decision was that the mother had been the last adult with the weapon. Not sure how that fares for the father’s trial; guess we’ll see.

[tacokick]

Feb 6, 2024 18:48:55 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

What gives me pause about this trial and the verdict was that her son was tried and convicted as an adult. How could she be criminally responsible if he was an “adult”? I’m shocked she’s guilty.

Adults get convicted under joint enterprise for crimes committed by other adults even if they don’t actually physically commit the crime themselves. I’m guessing that is at least partly the logic they used here, that the parent(s) knew it was likely a crime was going to be committed and facilitated it by providing the weapon.

[prettyinpearls]

When I was watching clips on the news my first thought was that the mother didn't look well, being locked up has taken a toll on her. My second thought? GOOD.

[rachers]

I think this sets a really important precedent. Thats all I’ve got to say I guess.

[kiminky]

What do you all think the implications of this ruling are for parents in more vulnerable communities? Of kids that don't commit mass shootings, but other gun crimes.

[TR]

Feb 7, 2024 12:31:35 GMT -5 kiminky said:

What do you all think the implications of this ruling are for parents in more vulnerable communities? Of kids that don't commit mass shootings, but other gun crimes.

I was wondering this, too. Since it seems like the emphasis was less “gun owners should be held responsible for crimes committed with their guns” and more “these were bad parents” I wonder how this precedent could be applied in other situations where minors commit crimes.

[timorousbeastie]

Feb 6, 2024 18:48:55 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

What gives me pause about this trial and the verdict was that her son was tried and convicted as an adult. How could she be criminally responsible if he was an “adult”? I’m shocked she’s guilty.

Even with the shooter being tried as an adult, I still think the parents should be found guilty. They bought a gun for someone who could not legally own one, knew that he was struggling mentally, and did not secure the weapon. I don’t see it as any different from a parent giving their 20 year old alcohol, seeing that the child is very drunk, then letting them drive. That parent should be legally culpable for any deaths that result from those actions.

(Disclaimer: I fully admit that I am biased against the parents in this case. I also am very much not a lawyer, so I don’t actually know if the parent in my above scenario would legally be held responsible, but in my non-lawyer mind I would hope they could be.)

[timorousbeastie]

Feb 7, 2024 12:31:35 GMT -5 kiminky said:

What do you all think the implications of this ruling are for parents in more vulnerable communities? Of kids that don't commit mass shootings, but other gun crimes.

Subsequent to this shooting (so therefore not actually part of this ruling) Michigan passed a safe storage law, requiring guns be secured unloaded and separate from ammunition so that minors cannot access the gun. With this ruling, and with the safe storage law, I’m fine with parents who don’t secure their weapons being charged for gun crimes their children commit.

[jeaniebueller]

Feb 6, 2024 18:48:55 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

What gives me pause about this trial and the verdict was that her son was tried and convicted as an adult. How could she be criminally responsible if he was an “adult”? I’m shocked she’s guilty.

He’s was not legally an adult, he was an adult for purposes of being prosecuted only.

[Velar Fricative]

Feb 8, 2024 6:49:28 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Feb 6, 2024 18:48:55 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

What gives me pause about this trial and the verdict was that her son was tried and convicted as an adult. How could she be criminally responsible if he was an “adult”? I’m shocked she’s guilty.

He’s was not legally an adult, he was an adult for purposes of being prosecuted only.

I understand that. But I just found it odd that they’d pursue charges against him “as an adult” while also prosecuting his parents. For that reason I figured she’d be found not guilty. Not that I’m shedding any tears, just to be clear.

[eddy]

The NYTimes Daily had an excellent podcast on this topic.

I hadn't spent too much time thinking about the presentence part of holding parents responsible for crimes a child commits. It present both sides well and gave me food for thought.

[hermione]

The father was found guilty on
all 4 counts as well.

www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna143174

[underwaterrhymes]

Mar 14, 2024 18:25:18 GMT -5 hermione said:

The father was found guilty on
all 4 counts as well.

www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna143174

Good.

[icedcoffee]

I’m thrilled!

[timorousbeastie]

Mar 14, 2024 18:25:18 GMT -5 hermione said:

The father was found guilty on
all 4 counts as well.

www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna143174

From the article:
“Crumbley later told investigators he hid the 9 mm handgun in an armoire and placed the ammunition underneath jeans in another drawer.
…
Defense lawyer Mariell Lehman said in her closing arguments that the prosecution had to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt and that it presented no evidence to show Crumbley knew his son was a danger to the public or that he had access to the gun.”

How does the father admitting he left the gun in an armoire and bullets in another drawer equal no evidence that he knew his son had access to the gun? Hiding the gun (and that’s even giving him the benefit of assuming he didn’t show his son exactly where he kept it, which wouldn’t surprise me) in a completely unsecured location does absolutely nothing to prevent access to it. It’s not like the kid broke into one safe to get the gun and another to get the bullets; he absolutely knew his son could access the gun. I am so very glad he and his wife were both convicted.

[definitelyO]

random - but why was the dad wearing that headset during the trial?

and so thankful for the verdicts.

[BlondeSpiders]

An interesting little tidbit:

While the cases against the husband and wife largely mirrored each other — with many of the same witnesses testifying in both trials — prosecutors did not delve as deeply into James Crumbley's social and work life. Testimony took less than a week, and Crumbley did not take the stand in his own defense, like Jennifer Crumbley had.

and

Prosecutors in the mother's case had focused more heavily on Jennifer Crumbley's perceived parenting failures and how she seemed to ignore her son's mental distress while she was preoccupied with her hobbies and an extramarital affair.

Take that how you will.