Non-Federal Workers Return to Office

[StrawberryBlondie]

Feb 1, 2024 5:46:34 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Basically, my home chores are just staring at me all day when I WFH and I get distracted easily. I also genuinely like my colleagues and need to be around people. But, the nature of my job really wouldn’t allow me to WFH all the time effectively - I’m just more surprised at how much people like WFH, so I must be doing it wrong when I have to do it.

I've always been pretty skilled at ignoring chores so that's not a problem for me.

My job is such that I am either on a teams meeting with people all over the world or have my head in a spreadsheet for at least 80% of my day, so most of my office time is doing the same damn thing I do at home, just in less comfy clothes and in a less comfy chair.

[mrspez07]

I’m generallly all about doing what works best for you DH is remote and his whole team is scattered around the country.

In October, our design company of 8 merged with a company of 500 and we were brought into an office of 80. This company has a lot of variety in specialties, most people don’t do what I do and vice versa.
I hate the doubled commute time, the fact I have to take an elevator to go outside and the new cube farm. However, being in the office with folks who are regularly in the office in other departments has allowed me to feel like a part of this company and not an outsider. It is allowing me to try partnerships with other divisions with face to face conversations, including seeing an entry level guy in another dept 3 times in one day and having a chatty convo with him.
We hired an entry level designer and it’s key to have her, and those of us working with her available to guide and mentor her. This is the first time in 20 years I’ve really managed anyone.
Yes, we use teams for those conversations and partnerships with offices in other cities and states, so it’s totally possible to do this remotely, but I think the in-person interaction does help it happen quicker, at least with belonging and mentoring.

[noodleoo]

Feb 1, 2024 5:46:34 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I hate WFH so so much. I’ve been back in the office FT for a while but there are still allowances to WFH occasionally and when necessary (like before COVID). I may have to WFH today and I am dreading it. I know I won’t get as much work done.

Basically, my home chores are just staring at me all day when I WFH and I get distracted easily. I also genuinely like my colleagues and need to be around people. But, the nature of my job really wouldn’t allow me to WFH all the time effectively - I’m just more surprised at how much people like WFH, so I must be doing it wrong when I have to do it.

I mean, in some ways I do miss the way it was in the office before Covid.  My boss and most coworkers were local.  But even before Covid, we were having issues recruiting and when a few people retired, they were replaced by fully remote employees out of state.  Then my local boss got laid off and now everyone I directly work with are out of state.  Plus the office in general is a ghost town, so it is SO depressing to work there.  Our company didn't even use Teams before Covid.  Now majority of work is done asynchronous and even people in the building take their meetings on Teams because it is easier.  Work culture has changed and it is not going back to the way it used to be.  That's why I believe if companies want to bring people back, they need to get creative about how they do it to make it actually worthwhile.

The NYT podcast had an episode about RTO recently and they mentioned that hybrid schedules are actually more stressful for employees because they are constantly making decisions about what days to go in and whether or not it is worth it, etc.  Whereas in the past it was a set schedule and no one questioned it and that's actually a lot less stressful.

www.nytimes.com/2024/01/25/podcasts/the-daily/hybrid-work.html?

ETA:  Thinking more about it, it probably helps that I was in person in this job for 3 years before being WFH.  If I switch jobs, I think it would be much harder to build relationships virtually.  So I can see why that's important from a culture perspective.  

Back to the studies thing, I'll see if I can find it but I listened to another podcast years ago that talked about a study done in China (pre Covid I think) where employees were randomly assigned to WFH or work in the office.  They found the WFH employees were more productive.  However, after the study, they gave all employees a choice whether they wanted WFH or not, and some of the WFH cohort chose to back to the office.  So it definitely isn't for everyone, I can imagine different personalities have different preferences just like everything.  For myself, my H is also WFH and I think if he wasn't, I'd probably be lonely and miss the office more.

Found it!  Good summary here:

hbr.org/2014/01/to-raise-productivity-let-more-employees-work-from-home

Full article here:  www.nber.org/papers/w18871

[tealblue]

Feb 1, 2024 8:59:13 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Feb 1, 2024 5:46:34 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Basically, my home chores are just staring at me all day when I WFH and I get distracted easily. I also genuinely like my colleagues and need to be around people. But, the nature of my job really wouldn’t allow me to WFH all the time effectively - I’m just more surprised at how much people like WFH, so I must be doing it wrong when I have to do it.

I've always been pretty skilled at ignoring chores so that's not a problem for me.

My job is such that I am either on a teams meeting with people all over the world or have my head in a spreadsheet for at least 80% of my day, so most of my office time is doing the same damn thing I do at home, just in less comfy clothes and in a less comfy chair.

This is exactly my situation. I have WFH since covid and our office does have a RTW policy. However it’s enforced by your manager. My team is overseas. I have a small local “team” here but I actually never need to work with any of them in my role. So I’m on teams calls all morning long and then my afternoon is work time, typically spreadsheets. But I’ve also shifted my hours to accommodate the time zone difference so I typically start at 6:30 or 7 am (or earlier if I need to be on calls)… so I also “leave” around 3/3:30 to do the school run and end my day.

The worst part of WFH for me is not having an on and off time since my office is here…. But it depends what I’m working on as my role has shifted so much during the last 4 years. I am job hunting now for a different reason and would not be happy with a long term 5 days in office. My life has shifted so I can pick my kids up from school, do appts, etc. I shift my hours to cover what I need. And on the days I do go into the office I feel so much less productive. If I take an early morning call then I have to pack up for the office and waste time doing that.
As far as chores, I’ll throw a load of laundry in or start the dishwasher but I really don’t do much personal stuff during my work hours. I still get up at an early hour, shower, dress decently for video calls and act (as much as possible) like I’m in a casual office.

[eddy]

Also I love the relief of chores at home to break up the day at my desk. Sitting at my computer is so depressing. I find getting up and doing a quick load of dishes can help me think through a work problem. Similar to how we always have our best ideas in the shower.

I am not a big socializer at work. I like to be friendly. But I also feel strongly about not mixing my personal life and work like. I have gotten burned on that in the past. So I don't miss hanging out with coworkers daily. I actually am less annoyed with my coworkers in general now that they can't just pop into my office and manipulate my time.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Honestly, my biggest issue with working at the office is *getting to* the office. Packing up all my shit, making sure I remember everything, remembering to get a lunch together, actually getting a lunch together, driving to the office, parking, walking in (it's a big parking lot) and making the trek to my desk is... a lot. So much time I could be spending doing other things. Like work. 😉

[ECB]

Feb 1, 2024 5:46:34 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

 I’m just more surprised at how much people like WFH, so I must be doing it wrong when I have to do it.

My old company - I wouldn't mind being in the office a couple days a week.  It was friendly, a lot of people around, etc.  I enjoyed the social side to being in the office.

My present job - my old office was somewhat removed but in a busy building, near a lot of shops/restaurants, etc.  Saw coworkers regularly - if I walked down the hall, etc. 

But right before Covid (January 2020), I was moved to a new office in a different building.  An OLD building, not near anywhere that I could run out to grab a coffee or a bite to eat, and next to NO ONE was in that building.  It literally was depressing to go to work there.  I HATED it.    There was a RTO in summer of '21, and those few months until December... the only savings grace was that my one employee was also there so she and I could chat and I got to see another person.  

Once Omicron hit, we were sent back home and I've basically been home ever since.   The very rare times I have to actually go to my physical office - I DREAD it. It's just depressing.

If they moved me to another building where more of the people I work with were located, I might not mind.  But unless that happens... I'm VERY happy at home.

[wildrice]

Feb 1, 2024 9:40:32 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Honestly, my biggest issue with working at the office is *getting to* the office. Packing up all my shit, making sure I remember everything, remembering to get a lunch together, actually getting a lunch together, driving to the office, parking, walking in (it's a big parking lot) and making the trek to my desk is... a lot. So much time I could be spending doing other things. Like work. 😉

This is my biggest issue too. I actually like when I'm in the office, but it's so much more logistics and as a naturally disorganized person who struggles to get up in the morning, that's a lot to add to the day. I love that when I'm at home I can shower whenever I need to and if I didn't prepare a lunch ahead of time I don't have to spend $20 to have something delivered - I can just make something with ingredients I have on hand. I also like that I can do basic chores during the day as breaks, so I don't have to cram everything into the evening/weekend.

But if I'm being honest with myself I do generally feel like I am more focused on work and do get energy from actually interacting with people when I'm there. The energy tends to sag on the weeks when I'm in the office 3x (which happens once a month) so I think my ideal is really 1-2 days per week in office.

[audette]

Feb 1, 2024 5:46:34 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I hate WFH so so much. I’ve been back in the office FT for a while but there are still allowances to WFH occasionally and when necessary (like before COVID). I may have to WFH today and I am dreading it. I know I won’t get as much work done.

Basically, my home chores are just staring at me all day when I WFH and I get distracted easily. I also genuinely like my colleagues and need to be around people. But, the nature of my job really wouldn’t allow me to WFH all the time effectively - I’m just more surprised at how much people like WFH, so I must be doing it wrong when I have to do it.

There are folks on my team like this - they _much_ prefer being in the office.  And, the building is open, and they can go in, and the rest of the team mixes it up on what days we go in, so they still get to interact with people, just not always the same people every year.

I can see that this is a thing for some folks, certainly.  I can easily come up with multiple use-cases for why some folks might prefer it.  However, I don't think it's a reason to _make_ everyone go into the office nearly the whole week, but having it as an option is certainly something that should exist in any flexwork/hybrid work situation.

[wawa]

I think we've hit a pretty good balance in my office, but it's not perfect. I mean...goign to the office 5 days a week in 2019 was annoying. Working from home full time doing tasks that are easier with actual paper in real life was annoying. So hybrid it is! We're doing two mandatory days in the office, and they are assigned by team. My team is tues/wed. The other main team is Wed/Thurs so Wednesday is our big group meeting collaboration day and the office is HOPPING.
So no "hmm, should I go in today or not"
no wondering who will be there.
You just go those two days.

As a manager it is MUCH easier to integrate new people and mentor in person. and I'm laughing about people bitching about the bullshit of spontaneous water cooler collaboration - that totally happens in my office. Like, "oh hey coworker in a different group...did I just hear you say you're working with X on Y? I'm supposed to do a presentation on Y in March for a professional org. Can I pick your brain??" is a real conversation I had last week. The nature of my specific sort of work is such that we do a LOT of cross collaboration. But I also just got asked if I could start doing 3 days in office and I'm not happy about that idea at all. I love my WFH days and having that commute time back and wearing sweatpants and throwing together random stuff for lunch. 2/3 feels good.

[penguingrrl]

My h was forced back in 3 days a week about a year ago. HR announced that anyone who didn’t comply would be considered to have resigned, so he went. He hates every single bit of it. The small talk has always felt like a waste of his time (he’s very introverted), the commute saps 3 hours a day and gives him major environmental guilt (we bought our house before he worked in his current location, and on the train line so he could use public transit and moving isn’t possible), and his meetings are still over zoom because there’s only one day a week the whole team is in on the same day. And since his company is one of those godawful open concept offices he’s hearing other people’s zoom meetings all day, but hasn’t found noise canceling headphones that don’t give him a headache wearing them all day because they push his glasses into the side of his head. He’s finding he collaborates less in office because they’re all worried about bothering their neighbors, which isn’t an issue when they’re all working from home.

They’re also outright rejecting any and all flexible work arrangements, which they were generous with prior to the pandemic. His neurologist wrote a letter recommending he work from home since he’s immunocompromised and it was turned down because it wasn’t a full on prescription for work from home, just a “recommendation.” Others who previously had WFH agreements found them revoked. And for much of the company they were told in the beginning of September that starting in October they suddenly had to go to 4 days in after years of saying they would never increase from 3 in (@@@ and for folks with older elementary school kids who had already signed up for aftercare for only their days in since they could easily work around a kid that age, it created a nightmare since there’s a major shortage of aftercare slots in our state so adding another day wasn’t possible for everyone).

He’s in tech and if there weren’t more rounds of layoffs going on throughout the industry (his company has generally avoided layoffs, even in 2008) he would absolutely be looking to leave a job and company he otherwise really really likes because of this. Instead he passive agressively puts in far fewer hours on his in office days. Before the pandemic he left home by 6:30 to be in the office by 7:30 so he could leave at 4:30 and be home by 6. Now he doesn’t leave home until 7:30, gets in between 9 and 9:30 and still leaves at 4:30 because fuck them, if they’re wasting his time with a commute then he’s giving them less time.

[audette]

I suppose my other issue with RTW is that my days often start with 7am meetings. Some days I don't have more than a 20-30 minute break until lunch. By that point, it feels foolish to bother going into the office. 20 minutes is not enough time to pack up my laptop from the am meetings, drive to the office, and get to my desk. 30 minutes is _maybe_ possible, but red lights might make it challenging.

And... I've been pretty consistent that I don't take 7am meetings in the office. Because 7am. I can't do away with 7am meetings, because many of my early meetings involve folks from other continents, so we have a limited time window we can work in and have folks engaged.

My direct boss has been very wishy-washy on the previous "ask" from management that we go in three days a week. That was always fairly flexible and very much presented as a request, not a mandate, and... most of us didn't meet it. And boss wasn't too fussed about it, really. But, with the new policy, I suspect his feet will be held to the fire if we individual contributors are not in the office more.

Which, like folks mention above, is dumb. Because the whole concept of the "workplace" has shifted since Covid began.

[pixy0stix]

Anecdote - I was sick for a solid three months with various crud and covid immediately starting this in person job. Therefore, in person work is hazardous your health.

[fluffycookie]

We're supposed to be in the office 3 days a week. They made a push, but at my location no one is doing it. They closed the cafeteria and got rid of security and are now apparently closing the mailroom. I will go in for in person meetings, but that's it. I was in yesterday and it was a ghost town.

[EvieEthelGarland]

I'd be more amendable to going in if they paid for parking. The garage is $18/day. They do provide transit passes but that's 90 minutes vs 20 and the last two times I took the train I witnessed muggings. When I do go in, I spend about an hour chatting with the one other person in the office, do spreadsheets, and go home at lunch. The only perk is the building mini mart carries the flavor of Snapple I like.

[audette]

Feb 1, 2024 11:32:13 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Anecdote - I was sick for a solid three months with various crud and covid immediately starting this in person job. Therefore, in person work is hazardous your health.

This is also a concern of mine - before Covid, I used to catch _everything_ going around.  Since, not so much, which I attribute to just being around fewer folks, and flex work making it _much_ more acceptible to WFH when not well.


With a RTW policy in place, I'm wondering how often I'm going to get sick.  And then I add in the fact that we have a roommate who works with high-risk individuals on a frequent basis, and I am more worried about it all.

Perhaps I'll start masking at work once this many folks need to go in all the time.

[mrsslocombe]

We are still fully remote, though we have an in-office day every other month.

Now that I am the boss, I definitely have had grumblings about wishing we were back in office at certain times. Most of my team is west coast. I have several employees that just disappear for 2-3 hours in the middle of the day. And our tech support is only available until 7pm ET, so there have been multiple days where these employees come back to their desks in the evening and then can't get onto the system. So they just...work half a day? And fall behind schedule.

In generally I think my employees are more productive at home, but some people definitely abuse the fact that they aren't visible all day. And other people on the team suffer because they have to pick up the slack.

I use these headphones: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HVLUR86/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They aren't attractive but I edit video all day-the sound quality is great and these are more comfortable.

[redheadbaker]

Feb 1, 2024 9:59:41 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Feb 1, 2024 9:40:32 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Honestly, my biggest issue with working at the office is *getting to* the office. Packing up all my shit, making sure I remember everything, remembering to get a lunch together, actually getting a lunch together, driving to the office, parking, walking in (it's a big parking lot) and making the trek to my desk is... a lot. So much time I could be spending doing other things. Like work. 😉

This is my biggest issue too. I actually like when I'm in the office, but it's so much more logistics and as a naturally disorganized person who struggles to get up in the morning, that's a lot to add to the day. 

Yeah, I have a morning routine, and even a three-day weekend is enough to completely throw me off and make me forget at least one or two things I'm supposed to do -- like take my meds. 

@@@@ - related

SPOILER: Click to show

The switch from school-year morning routine to summer camp morning routine, and vice versa in the fall, is always a nightmare.

[TR]

Feb 1, 2024 9:40:32 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Honestly, my biggest issue with working at the office is *getting to* the office. Packing up all my shit, making sure I remember everything, remembering to get a lunch together, actually getting a lunch together, driving to the office, parking, walking in (it's a big parking lot) and making the trek to my desk is... a lot. So much time I could be spending doing other things. Like work. 😉

Yes! The amount of work to prep all of the food I eat in a day lol and then choosing between driving 45 minutes in mostly stop & go traffic for free or paying $4.50 (each way) in tolls for an easy 30 minute drive. Forget about the real clothes part 😩

[Nugget T. Brain, The OG]

My company told people they had to be in 3 days a week last spring, with all staff in on Tuesdays. A lot of people are ignoring that lol. My particular department is lab based though, so they have to be in almost all the time. It's caused some disgruntlement for them as they also had to come in through COVID and the corporate staff got to work fully remote for 2 years, so seeing the staff continue to basically ignore the directive is pissing them off.

I would personally prefer to be in 2 days a week, as my job is completely computer based.

[bee20]

We have "an ask, not a mandate" and I'm actively ignoring the fact that some of my team members only come in once a week, because over half my team is virtual anyway and it seems dumb to penalize people that were hired locally given that we all worked remote for 3 years.

As management I am going in per the ask and have been sick 80% of the last few months. Several of our in-person folks have been disruptively sick as well. It also has significantly impacted my sleep quality waking up much earlier some days and not others. I'm excited about the work we do, otherwise I'd be very willing to leave for something full remote. Our industry has always required a fair bit of travel to work sites, so we're used to working distantly and travel is enough of a work/life balance impact.

[BlondeSpiders]

My division, Employee Experience, is required to be on campus 5 days a month. I get to choose my days and usually align them with my closest cube farm coworkers. This started last July. For 2024, my firm also instituted "Connection Weeks" which are every other week and managers are encouraged to schedule meetings for those weeks in case people are on site.

I feel pretty lucky, all in all. I live about 8 minutes away from my office so it's not a huge hassle to come in. There's plenty of parking, and we have a nice cafe on site with subsidized lunches. It could be a lot worse.

Ok, it looks like I just talked myself into staying for a while longer.

[macmars45]

The owner of the company H's works for wants everyone to RTO. When they went fully remote in March 2020 they subleased the main office and more than 50% of employees moved out of the Seattle area (H included). So good luck with that out of touch owner who lives in an entirely different country than his company operates in. Everyone loves WFH and they are all much happier not commuting to downtown Seattle every day.

[glw]

noodleoo, agnes, that is so frustrating, I'm sorry

[wise_rita]

I am HERE for the employees simply ignoring RTO mandates, LOL!

My question is: are the ones making the mandates returning, too?

I'd love examples of ones who aren't.

[RoxMonster]

My team goes in one day a week, every Tuesday. I am OK with it, but would love to be full-time remote. At least we do plan a bunch of in-person meetings on those days (though we do have some permanently remote people and on any given week, usually at least one person is sick or has a sick family member to care for or has a contractor coming over or etc. etc. and is therefore remote) so even in-person meetings have someone on Teams.

I absolutely love WFH. It has been such a huge improvement in my life. I like wearing comfortable clothes and sitting in a chair that is comfortable for me. I like being able to be home with my elderly dog. I like not being "on" all day around co-workers, especially when a big portion of my job is independent work and I'm just working in PPT or spreadsheets on my own. I hope I never have to go back to a job that is on-site five days a week. I don't think I could or would want to do it. I hope my team never has to go in more than one day a week as is.

[BlondeSpiders]

I will address the elephant in the room. The real reason RTO sucks:

No one likes pooping at work.

It's the worst! We have a single-stall all-gender restroom next to the large, gendered ones, so at least I can have some privacy. But after beong home 95% of the last 4 years (seriously, in March it will be 4 years!) I am too accustomed to the bidet and miss it when I'm not at home and have to go. At work, like a plebe.

[pixy0stix]

I'm not a shy pooper. I'll poop anywhere, any time. I do miss having a bidet when I poop at work.


I really don't understand the money companies are wasting to have a space that people only use once a week. Might as well take that money and set it on fire for all the good it's doing.

[sandandsea]

Jan 31, 2024 16:44:28 GMT -5 glw said:

I've asked this before, but I'm a researcher and this is my soapbox: Has anyone who works somewhere that is requiring RTO been shown any evidence that their company's performance/productivity/whatever measure was negatively affected by remote work? Actual evidence, not "Oh, CEO feels like there's less productivity because he can't watch people sitting at their desks..."
The biz journals keep churning out these pieces about how remote work is bad for "productivity" but then there is no data cited in support of that claim. There's not even a definition of what productivity means. *eye twitch


[I'm fully remote, permanently.]

Yes as upper management it makes a huge difference for those 1-2 years into their careers to have face to face guidance, training and mentorship. WFH when people have no clue what they are doing doesn’t work well. Those who are in office vs remote at the same entry level have greater performance and ability after 6 months. We are professionals and adults but it’s largely still an apprenticeship business model.

We are a hybrid model and it works well.

[lolalolalola]

We have been in the office for almost 2 years by now, started with 3 days/week and have been 4 days/week for the past year. It surprises me when so many companies are not “back to the office”. By now haven’t orgs figured out if full time work from home works for their business or not?