Really Fun Graphics Friday - Transportation Patterns

[scm1011]

Apr 1, 2024 8:58:13 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Apr 1, 2024 8:14:05 GMT -5 scm1011 said:

I'm currently mostly at home but being forced back to the office in June. Here are my commute options (6 miles):

Drive: 22 minutes
Bike: 36 minutes
Public Transport: 58 minutes

I did the commute for a decade pre-covid and used public transport 90% of the time, and biked the other 9.9%. I have driven in maybe 2 or 3 times. When I head back it will likely more a 60/40 Public Transport/Bike split because our bike infrastructure has improved in the last few years. Even though driving is clearly the quickest, I much prefer the other options so I can read or get exercise. 

I love hearing about improvements in bike infrastructure!
In both cities I live in they now have the bikes you can rent and they seem rather popular. But I haven’t seen too much noticeable change in biking infrastructure incorporated in to our roads wide spread. There are a few bike lanes (with no barriers) here and there but nothing wide spread. And yes I’ve gotten involved with groups that advocate for better biking infrastructure. I know it’s possible, but is not always a priority in certain places with competing priorities and budgets. Hopefully things will continue to improve because I personally do not feel safe biking regularly here and after my bike got stolen 4 years ago I didn’t buy another one (I would bike about a mile on the streets to get to a dedicated bike/running path and that mile would freak me out every time with how much drivers are assholes to bikers).

My city (Somerville, MA - adjacent to Boston) has really made bike infrastructure a huge priority in the last few years (not without fierce pushback from some in the community). We have a new dedicated community path that goes directly to downtown Boston alongside the T (below), plus "protected" bike lanes along many of the two lane roads (protected by pylons mostly, so could use some improvement there).

[jane6672]

Im in nyc, so commute to work (typically 2x a week) is public transit, I often jog or walk my commute once a week weather permitting (so 1/4 legs).

Daily stuff like groceries, dining, the gym, etc is all walk or jog.

Things like the doctor, visiting friends that live further away, etc depends on the distance and the weather, much more active transit in the warm months.

We don’t own a car, and even things like visiting family is influenced by transit choices - we see my family more because we can take Amtrak all the way down to their town. For H’s family we have to fly (otherwise 14 hour drive w/ rented car, 20+ by circuitous train route).

[fancynewbeesly]

I work in two schools:

School A is 6 miles away; a 15 minute drive, biking is 45 minutes, walking is 2 hours and 45 minutes. It definitely isn’t a safe bike route. No bike paths. Etc.

School B is 8 miles away. 20 minute drive. Publix transportation is an an hour and a half and still would need a bike or car because it doesn’t drop you off near the actual school. Biking is an hour and 15 minutes.

We weren’t able to live closer to work because house prices were not affordable.

[wildrice]

I think even in places with good public transit, it tends to take longer to get places. For example, I was in Rome the week before last and when I would look at Google maps to see how long it would take to get there, it might say it's a 10 minute drive but 25 minutes by public transit. The 10 minute drive also doesn't include however long it takes to park (or for an Uber to arrive in this example!). I can see when someone has an hour long commute that even adding 15 minutes on top of it isn't appealing - but I think there is some mindset shift that would also need to happen in the US if we ever did increase access to pubic transit. We would need to look at the benefits of public transit other than saving time - but within reason, obviously.

I recently discovered that I can take public transit to work, but only if I have a ride or drive to a bus stop first. If I do that, I can get to work in about an hour once I'm on the bus, which is a little longer than if I drive but with traffic, parking, etc it's not usual for it to take me 50 minutes anyway and at least on the bus I am not in charge so I can just relax. The downsides, though, are that the bus only comes at limited times (I think 4x in the morning and 4x in the afternoon) and it also costs $6 each way, so depending on my schedule and how often I am taking it, it may not be a great option. I am thankful for it because my H and I share a car and it's only about once a month that we both need to be in the office at the same time, so I take the bus on those days. He can drop me off so I don't have to park a car there. If I had to drive a car and park it at the bus AND pay for the bus ride AND have to plan my work schedule around the bus every day, I might be a lot more inclined to drive there.

[wawa]

Apr 1, 2024 8:39:24 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Apr 1, 2024 7:46:38 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

But you are choosing to live in those neighborhoods. You are choosing to not show up to your local government and support better infrastructure. You chose your job. You chose your lifestyle. It's not the planners or developers. In general, they build what people want and will buy.

As for suggestions, open up Wawa's post history. Just show up to a few government meetings and you can influence infrastructure.

Well….I don’t choose my job, and I don’t choose where I live. In theory I have some latitude around which specific house I live in, but I’m not paid enough to live any closer to work than I do (and my lower-paid coworkers all have to live much further away. We prioritized living extremely close to work/school for my husband and son.

Even if I could choose my job, there’s nowhere within my entire state (and potentially any neighboring state), not in any of the locations that I’ve ever lived in, that has the type of infrastructure that we’re after.

I could show up to local government meetings, but I don’t vote in this state, so I’m not even a constituent that any politician would theoretically listen to.

Could I do more than I’m currently doing? Probably. Could we come even close to the type of infrastructure we want in my lifetime? Probably not.

You....didn't choose your job or where you live?  Are you active duty military?  (you're not in my mental list of people in my computer I know too much about, but I feel like maybe yes?)  If so, ok, I get it.  if not I need more explanation.  (or tell me to buzz off because that's personal info)

Totally agree updating infrastructure is a long term project, but little changes can make a big difference, and I have sat through a LOT of local government body meetings and infrastructure project meetings and the only people who care where you're registered to vote in those meetings are the old nimby folks who like to start their testimony by stating that they've been a resident since before I was born and also that they vote.  If you live there, you get a say.  I can confidently say I have yet to meet a local politician around here who wouldn't LIGHT THEMSELVES ON FIRE before refusing to hear the views of somebody who lives here but is registered to vote elsewhere when it comes to infrastructure funding/projects/priorities (we have a HUGE military population, so that's very very common). 

You asked what people can do - So for the good of the group I'll pontificate for a min: 
So first on my list as somebody who has to run public meetings and works on the projects getting decided on by local politicians, as always, is pay attention to decisions being made where you live, show up to meetings, send emails, be heard.  If you want to nerd out educate yourself about transit access, walkability, bikeability, transportation safety, affordable housing in walkable/bikewable/transit rich areas, mixed land use and other non-sprawl patterns, et cetc so you can feel comfortable speaking on those topics and writing more detailed emails, but even just "I really wish I could walk to ANYTHING HERE OMG" messages are a huge deal.  It does help.  i swear to the easter bunny on this our day of sugar hangovers, it DOES MATTER. It's not magic, but it'll slowly move the needle.  

People who get to choose where they live and are picking a new one should have "can walk/bike/transit to SOMETHING" on their must have list when house hunting.  Not "live a car free life" because I agree it's simply not an option in most of the country.  But something.  At least one something. But often even that one something requires being willing to accept some tradeoffs.  Like, you  might have a smaller yard.  You might have less storage space.  You might have smaller bedrooms.  Etc.  But just putting some value on not having to drive a car for every.single.thing will help nudge along change.  Our land use patterns are fucked, so there ARE huge swaths of the country where this is hard and is going to limit your options, and the chances you can walk to your job are super slim in even the best areas, but a LOT of our personal VMT (vehicle miles traveled) aren't journey to work trips. Priortize living somewher eyou can walk to @ stuff, or a corner store or library or park or even just like, that one sandwich place down the way.  Make that something that matters to you, and has monetary value, because it should and it does.

If you're already in a place - if you can just pick one category of trip and figure out a way to do that without driving, do that. It helps. Walk, bike or transit. And in that process you'll learn more about how to figure out those trips and it gets easier over time.  I worked in my current location for 2 years before I got the hang of my transit options because I thought it wouldn't be viable, and if you just google from my house to my office, it ISN'T.  But I decided to dig in and figure out a way, and turns out if I drive a few miles to the park and ride it's totally doable and I would NEVER have known that if I just looked at the google maps results and called it quits.  Also it took some trial and error till I figured out my current commute routine.  In the same way that starting a new driving commute, you might try a few routes before you figure out which one you prefer that's the most consistent and let's you easily swing by the dry cleaner or whatever is important to you....transit, or biking or walkign takes the same trial and error and willingness to have a rough commute or 4 before you figure it out.  Also have the same forebearance for some days sucking in the same way they do when driving. We're all so used to some days traffic is just terrible - but often I see people writing off transit or biking after one bad ride.  Like...I got stuck on the damn beltway for 2 hours last week when I had to drive for fieldwork. But I'm still going to drive the next time I have to go to that area because it's the only viable option unfortunately for that particular trip.  I'm also not going to swear off the bus because last week it showed up 10 min late.  Once you figure out that one category of trip, maybe you see a way to do another. We had to learn how to drive - you also have to learn how to work the transit system or figure out bike routing.

Similarly to choosing a home location - Put "can I get there without driving" in your decision making process when you're picking all the OTHER stuff in your life. where you get your hair cut, where you get your oil changed, your doc office, your dentist, your go-to takeout. Figure out if there are options for those that don't require a car - try them out and if they don't suck - maybe keep going there!  Like, I get my hair cut at the place down the street isntead of at the cheaper place out in the bigger shopping center because I can walk there. It's a little more expensive than I'd like, but I'm not spending money on gas and car wear and tear and I get some exercise, so....there's a tradeoff I'm willing to take.  

Don't be afraid of change. See how jacked this current system is and be open to things being a little messy as we try to fix it.  I cannot tell you how many people see a plan to create transit lanes or a new safer bikeway and are too scared it's going to slow down cars to support it and can't wrap their head around that being an acceptable trade off.  It is!  it has to be!   Talk to people in your community and plant these same seeds. We literally can't keep going as we have been. 

[wawa]

Apr 1, 2024 11:42:05 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I think even in places with good public transit, it tends to take longer to get places. For example, I was in Rome the week before last and when I would look at Google maps to see how long it would take to get there, it might say it's a 10 minute drive but 25 minutes by public transit. The 10 minute drive also doesn't include however long it takes to park (or for an Uber to arrive in this example!). I can see when someone has an hour long commute that even adding 15 minutes on top of it isn't appealing - but I think there is some mindset shift that would also need to happen in the US if we ever did increase access to pubic transit. We would need to look at the benefits of public transit other than saving time - but within reason, obviously.

I recently discovered that I can take public transit to work, but only if I have a ride or drive to a bus stop first. If I do that, I can get to work in about an hour once I'm on the bus, which is a little longer than if I drive but with traffic, parking, etc it's not usual for it to take me 50 minutes anyway and at least on the bus I am not in charge so I can just relax. The downsides, though, are that the bus only comes at limited times (I think 4x in the morning and 4x in the afternoon) and it also costs $6 each way, so depending on my schedule and how often I am taking it, it may not be a great option. I am thankful for it because my H and I share a car and it's only about once a month that we both need to be in the office at the same time, so I take the bus on those days. He can drop me off so I don't have to park a car there. If I had to drive a car and park it at the bus AND pay for the bus ride AND have to plan my work schedule around the bus every day, I might be a lot more inclined to drive there.

speaking of people who live in my computer that I know too much about, literally the same "oh wait i can ride the bus!" knowledge journey here. Like...same bus service. LOL. You're going the other direction though I think.

With the added wrinkle that I have to pay for parking at my work location, and my office doesn't pay for that parking but they DO pay for my transit. So that math is super easy for me. The bus is free (for me) AND i don't have to know about the idiots driving in front of me? Winning. (oh...add that to my list of things to do. If you DO live in a place that has transit, and a fairly dense downtown area but isn't one of the major places already ahead of the curve on this - push local politicians for a parking buy out policy and/or transit reimbursement policy. Example of policy in DC: godcgo.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-dc-parking-cashout-law/)

[pixy0stix]

Even active duty military has a say in their job - as far as I know we don't conscript people into service.

Look y'all - nothing is going to beat single occupancy vehicle trips for time. But this learned helplessness is beyond. Either we figure out how to ditch the cars (and this includes EV) or we die as a species. The US is killing the entire earth.

[Michelle]

Apr 1, 2024 12:04:17 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Even active duty military has a say in their job - as far as I know we don't conscript people into service.

Look y'all - nothing is going to beat single occupancy vehicle trips for time. But this learned helplessness is beyond. Either we figure out how to ditch the cars (and this includes EV) or we die as a species. The US is killing the entire earth.

You are right, of course.

AND there can be people making choices based on things that change without their control.

I chose the Burb I live in because it is the closest geographically to the city, which was cost prohibitive (living IN the city) at the time we were buying. There was a signed agreement between the county and a big developer to put in light rail from the Texas Medical Center to within a mile of my house. I could park and ride or bike and ride to the last stop on the line and then go from there, and my husband could do the same to get downtown, passing the med center, as the rail goes all the way there. It would take longer, but we could do emails or read or whatever on the train.

When the housing market busted in 2007 or 8 ish, the agreement busted as well and other developers have since bought that land without the rail plan. 

We later voted for a park and ride option, but the two counties across which that would span could not agree on a cost structure. The only ride sharing in our area is in a van pool, and that doesn't work with either of our jobs because we can't come/go on a fixed schedule.

We voted for an HOV lane so we could carpool to work and relieve roadway congestion. The state chose a contractor who made it exclusively a toll lane that costs $15 each way to go all the way downtown, and about $8 or $9 to go the 12ish miles to the med center. Both are ridiculous and not serving the community. The state just announced they are cancelling that contract and taking it over, but who knows if they will make an HOV option, which is what was voted on by the majority of people in our area (technically the vote was for a mixed use HOV/Toll option - HOV for min # riders and toll if under that).

When we downsize we plan to buy further in (I'm actually trying to move to another state, and that is a whole separate discussion, but one where there actually is public transport infrastructure). 

[wanderingback]

I feel like we need to put energy towards pointing out where the government has failed as well.

I don’t own a car. I take public transportation or walk. When I go visit my family I take Amtrak. But as I said above, my parents suburb has no public transportation. So they then have to come
Pick me up from the Amtrak station and drive me 1.5 hours. It’s unrealistic for me to make a significant change to get public transport in their area. My mom has talked with local government about this. My parents ended up living there because my dad was active military for 22 years and that was his last base. Sure you could tell him he should’ve never joined the military so he wouldn’t have ended up there, but come on.

Sure,I could get a job at McDonald’s so I could walk to work instead of being a doctor, but come on.

If the government provided more education, resources and incentives people would use them.

[pixy0stix]

Wandering, your parents chose to live there. They could have moved after your dad retired. You said they stayed because it was convenient for them.

Governments DO provide incentives and education. In Colorado right now there are several incentives to change your mode of travel. I bet if we got CO posters in here many would say they still chose their single occupancy cars for one reason or another. It's a choice.

[Deleted]

[mention]wawa [/mention] I am active duty military. I guess I figured everyone had me on their spreadsheet! (I don’t even have a spreadsheet, and I have a shit memory for stuff, so I often forget these types of details myself).

I really appreciate your long post! There definitely are definitely a few things that my community can do, specifically around carpooling, so I’m going to try to work within my neighborhood to see if I can set up any recurring ride sharing.

I think the sad truth is that most families would struggle to make public transport or carpooling work as long as they have two people working outside the home in different locations. In our current location, living near my work wasn’t possible so we prioritized living close to H’s work/C’s school (H is a teacher at the same school that C attends). We were hoping it would be walkable since it’s only about 1.25 miles, but H has had some health things creep up since we moved here that make that not possible anymore. C will ride in with him until middle school, then he’ll walk. I retire from AD in 12-18 months, so I’ll try to find a job that’s WFH/close/accessible by park and ride, but there is literally zero public transit close to my home.

We’re traveling in London right now, and I’m amazed at how easy the public transit is. It’s fairly inexpensive as far as traveling goes, though I could see how it would add up for daily commuters. I think it’s capped at like 5ish pounds per person per day, but 50 pounds per week/200 pounds per month for a working couple is a lot (definitely cheaper than gas/parking/insurance, but still expensive).

[wanderingback]

Apr 1, 2024 12:41:43 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Wandering, your parents chose to live there. They could have moved after your dad retired. You said they stayed because it was convenient for them.

Governments DO provide incentives and education. In Colorado right now there are several incentives to change your mode of travel. I bet if we got CO posters in here many would say they still chose their single occupancy cars for one reason or another. It's a choice.

Cost is a big factor in regards to why people don’t move. Once my parents got divorced my mom didn’t have enough money to buy an expensive place closer to public transportation. She rented for a few years and then was able to buy in a retirement village that does offer some public transportation options, plus she can walk to her neighbors, there’s a little restaurant there, etc. My dad stayed because the house was paid off and again couldn’t afford to move. They don’t live in extravagant places. My mom lives in a 2 bedroom place because she helps take care of my 106 year grandmother so needs a 2nd bedroom.
I guess you are right that she could babe technically moved to a 1 bedroom apartment closer to the city and put my grandmother in a nursing home or sleep on the couch. So yes people do have choices, but it has to be within reason and housing is not cheap.

I tried to get her to move here but she has a million friends where she lives and the elderly and being lonely is a huge problem
So I don’t fault her for not wanting to start over at the age of 70, plus she can’t afford the rent here as it would be more than her current housing costs on a fixed income.

I mean while we’re at it we could all just be houseless! That would certainly cut down on energy expenditures! I still blame the government.

[pixy0stix]

We can blame the government all we want, but in a supposed democracy WE are the government. The government is supposed to represent our concerns. So any failing of the government is our failure in the end.

And I'll beat this drum again - infrastructure is stupid easy to influence if you just try.

[wanderingback]

Apr 1, 2024 12:41:43 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Wandering, your parents chose to live there. They could have moved after your dad retired. You said they stayed because it was convenient for them.

Governments DO provide incentives and education. In Colorado right now there are several incentives to change your mode of travel. I bet if we got CO posters in here many would say they still chose their single occupancy cars for one reason or another. It's a choice.

That is great that CO has public transportation and walkable and bikeable places everywhere and is encouraging people to use them. So I was not talking about CO. I was talking about places that have zero public transportation options. The government needs to make those options available and then educate and encourage people to use them. Other governments could learn from CO models.

[wildrice]

Apr 1, 2024 11:56:42 GMT -5 wawa said:

Apr 1, 2024 11:42:05 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I think even in places with good public transit, it tends to take longer to get places. For example, I was in Rome the week before last and when I would look at Google maps to see how long it would take to get there, it might say it's a 10 minute drive but 25 minutes by public transit. The 10 minute drive also doesn't include however long it takes to park (or for an Uber to arrive in this example!). I can see when someone has an hour long commute that even adding 15 minutes on top of it isn't appealing - but I think there is some mindset shift that would also need to happen in the US if we ever did increase access to pubic transit. We would need to look at the benefits of public transit other than saving time - but within reason, obviously.

I recently discovered that I can take public transit to work, but only if I have a ride or drive to a bus stop first. If I do that, I can get to work in about an hour once I'm on the bus, which is a little longer than if I drive but with traffic, parking, etc it's not usual for it to take me 50 minutes anyway and at least on the bus I am not in charge so I can just relax. The downsides, though, are that the bus only comes at limited times (I think 4x in the morning and 4x in the afternoon) and it also costs $6 each way, so depending on my schedule and how often I am taking it, it may not be a great option. I am thankful for it because my H and I share a car and it's only about once a month that we both need to be in the office at the same time, so I take the bus on those days. He can drop me off so I don't have to park a car there. If I had to drive a car and park it at the bus AND pay for the bus ride AND have to plan my work schedule around the bus every day, I might be a lot more inclined to drive there.

speaking of people who live in my computer that I know too much about, literally the same "oh wait i can ride the bus!" knowledge journey here. Like...same bus service. LOL. You're going the other direction though I think.

With the added wrinkle that I have to pay for parking at my work location, and my office doesn't pay for that parking but they DO pay for my transit. So that math is super easy for me. The bus is free (for me) AND i don't have to know about the idiots driving in front of me? Winning. (oh...add that to my list of things to do. If you DO live in a place that has transit, and a fairly dense downtown area but isn't one of the major places already ahead of the curve on this - push local politicians for a parking buy out policy and/or transit reimbursement policy. Example of policy in DC: godcgo.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-dc-parking-cashout-law/)

They really should advertise this kind of bus service better! I had originally looked up transit options when I moved here but quickly gave up when it said it would take hours to get into Baltimore - it took more digging and playing around with options to realize there was actually a really nice commuter bus option if I drove to the mall first instead of some combination of walking to another bus first/taking that bus to the commuter stop. The bus drops me off just a couple of blocks from my office, so it really is pretty simple! My lesson here was to not just look at Google maps and assume whatever they suggest is your only option!

My work doesn't pay for any transit or parking anywhere, but there are two major universities on the route and it does appear many of the other riders work at one of them so hopefully they are offering some kind of benefit to those folks. I work for a struggling non-profit so I'm not surprised we can't offer something like a bus pass, but it would be a great thing for employers with more money to offer and wouldn't it be cool if the state or federal government would provide an incentive to employers for offering this? 

[wanderingback]

As much as I complained about transport here in my other post, it’s pretty much one of the top reasons I don’t think I’ll ever leave here. I don’t plan to ever own a car again in my life (assuming nothing tragic/expected happens that forces me to move).

[wawa]

Apr 1, 2024 12:55:00 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Apr 1, 2024 11:56:42 GMT -5 wawa said:

speaking of people who live in my computer that I know too much about, literally the same "oh wait i can ride the bus!" knowledge journey here. Like...same bus service. LOL. You're going the other direction though I think.

With the added wrinkle that I have to pay for parking at my work location, and my office doesn't pay for that parking but they DO pay for my transit. So that math is super easy for me. The bus is free (for me) AND i don't have to know about the idiots driving in front of me? Winning. (oh...add that to my list of things to do. If you DO live in a place that has transit, and a fairly dense downtown area but isn't one of the major places already ahead of the curve on this - push local politicians for a parking buy out policy and/or transit reimbursement policy. Example of policy in DC: godcgo.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-dc-parking-cashout-law/)

They really should advertise this kind of bus service better! I had originally looked up transit options when I moved here but quickly gave up when it said it would take hours to get into Baltimore - it took more digging and playing around with options to realize there was actually a really nice commuter bus option if I drove to the mall first instead of some combination of walking to another bus first/taking that bus to the commuter stop. The bus drops me off just a couple of blocks from my office, so it really is pretty simple! My lesson here was to not just look at Google maps and assume whatever they suggest is your only option!

My work doesn't pay for any transit or parking anywhere, but there are two major universities on the route and it does appear many of the other riders work at one of them so hopefully they are offering some kind of benefit to those folks. I work for a struggling non-profit so I'm not surprised we can't offer something like a bus pass, but it would be a great thing for employers with more money to offer and wouldn't it be cool if the state or federal government would provide an incentive to employers for offering this? 

They do!   For those who don't work for struggling non-profits -  Ask your employer if they've ever thought about adding a transit benefit!!  (apparently this is another thing we're not advertising adequately....)

mdot.maryland.gov/tso/pages/index.aspx?pageid=41

[wanderingback]

Also, for people who live in less than ideal public transportation places but have given up their cars I do think it would be helpful to discuss how you did that. What the transition was like. What your daily commute looks like and how it changed. What you like and don’t like. Etc. When people have examples from people they know I do think it can be helpful to move the needle instead of just saying it can be done, go talk to your government and if you don’t you’re just making excuses.

[pixy0stix]

I'm going to caveat my responses - most are for the audience of this board, which is affluent/UMC. There absolutely are challenges to disadvantaged populations in accessing alternative transportation. Like most things, though, if we (the people of this board) can't/won't get involved then it won't change for other populations.

I'm also going to stress, again, that for most of us it's not a government or infrastructure problem. It's a convenience problem. Much like not swapping out our vehicles to smaller/less wasteful vehicles because where would we put the soccer shoes (throwback to a years old convo), it's a choice. These things have, for the most part, been a choice for the middle class. Suburbs didn't just pop into being just because.

[lilac05]

Mar 30, 2024 14:27:12 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Mar 30, 2024 9:39:22 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Yet another thread where people justify driving over any other mode. I'd like one thread where people problem solve and talk themselves into changing their mode of transportation.

I would love to do this. But the reality is that in many parts of America, other options just don’t exist. In a perfect world, we would design communities that would promote walking, biking, and public transport. But the people who designed the communities most of us currently live in completely screwed us over by forcing sprawl.

I’d love to know if anyone has suggestions on how we can improve our current lack of transportation options.

I agree with a lot of this.

One thing I’ve been happy to see gain some popularity in our small Midwest city area is a bus/carpool van that drives between the two populated cities. They’re about 25 miles apart and a lot of people drive between the two for work. (Often because one person has a job in one city and one has a job in the other.) We also have some car share lots in more rural areas where there’s basically just a parking lot on the side of the road where people arrange to meet and drive together to work. They’re not popular, as our culture is to think that we must have ultimate flexibility as to arrival/departure and being able to pick up groceries/run errands after work, but I’m glad it’s an option for some.

The rural makeup of our area makes public transportation difficult, but there are a lot of things that we can do to reduce carbon footprints. Carpooling can be an in-between option that a lot of people COULD make work if they wanted to. It would require a change in routines, but there are definitely more options than we think.

[pixy0stix]

I'm doing the thing where I keep coming back with "And another thing!"

Gas prices in America are insanely low when compared to the rest of the world. If we stripped away the artificially low price for gas all of the arguments to switch to other modes of travel would magically melt away. As an example - the UK is currently paying around $7 per gallon for gas. In 2015ish a study was done calculating the "true cost" of gasoline, and back then if we were paying appropriate taxes (for road repair etc.) we should have been around $15 per gallon. (We haven't been paying the appropriate taxes which is why, in part, our infrastructure is so shitty.)

[neverfstop]

Apr 1, 2024 14:30:16 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm doing the thing where I keep coming back with "And another thing!"

Gas prices in America are insanely low when compared to the rest of the world. If we stripped away the artificially low price for gas all of the arguments to switch to other modes of travel would magically melt away. As an example - the UK is currently paying around $7 per gallon for gas. In 2015ish a study was done calculating the "true cost" of gasoline, and back then if we were paying appropriate taxes (for road repair etc.) we should have been around $15 per gallon. (We haven't been paying the appropriate taxes which is why, in part, our infrastructure is so shitty.)

 I totally get that gas price are too low, but how do we increase the price to match the unsubsidized cost without it disproportionally impacting lower income Americans?  They already tend to drive less fuel efficient cars & have to drive farther from their homes to their jobs.  A tax credit/refund? (which the GOP would decry as free money to the poor) A direct benefit card like we have with food but to pay for gas?

[Deleted]

Apr 1, 2024 14:30:16 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm doing the thing where I keep coming back with "And another thing!"

Gas prices in America are insanely low when compared to the rest of the world. If we stripped away the artificially low price for gas all of the arguments to switch to other modes of travel would magically melt away. As an example - the UK is currently paying around $7 per gallon for gas. In 2015ish a study was done calculating the "true cost" of gasoline, and back then if we were paying appropriate taxes (for road repair etc.) we should have been around $15 per gallon. (We haven't been paying the appropriate taxes which is why, in part, our infrastructure is so shitty.)

I’m going to chime in here again with another note about privilege. About ten years ago, H and I did a thought experiment where we figured out about how much gasoline would have to be for us to drastically change our driving habits (get rid of a car, buy an electric car which back then there were not great options) and the number we came up with was $10/gallon. Now we make more, it might be closer to $13/gallon. So for UMC folks, we can absorb a LOT of price increase before we’d feel like we needed to change anything. Poor people absolutely can’t do that!!! And lack of good public transportation is absolutely hurting them NOW, today.

[wawa]

Apr 1, 2024 13:37:50 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

Mar 30, 2024 14:27:12 GMT -5 @villainv said:

I would love to do this. But the reality is that in many parts of America, other options just don’t exist. In a perfect world, we would design communities that would promote walking, biking, and public transport. But the people who designed the communities most of us currently live in completely screwed us over by forcing sprawl.

I’d love to know if anyone has suggestions on how we can improve our current lack of transportation options.

I agree with a lot of this.

One thing I’ve been happy to see gain some popularity in our small Midwest city area is a bus/carpool van that drives between the two populated cities. They’re about 25 miles apart and a lot of people drive between the two for work. (Often because one person has a job in one city and one has a job in the other.) We also have some car share lots in more rural areas where there’s basically just a parking lot on the side of the road where people arrange to meet and drive together to work. They’re not popular, as our culture is to think that we must have ultimate flexibility as to arrival/departure and being able to pick up groceries/run errands after work, but I’m glad it’s an option for some.

The rural makeup of our area makes public transportation difficult, but there are a lot of things that we can do to reduce carbon footprints. Carpooling can be an in-between option that a lot of people COULD make work if they wanted to. It would require a change in routines, but there are definitely more options than we think.

One of my favorite pieces of ad-hoc transportation infrastructure is the slugging practice in DC.  It's been formalized quite a bit now, but it started as a totally grassroots thing where people spread word that you could go wait in certain places and people who wanted to drive in the HOV lanes would swing through and find a destination match and take a total stranger as a carpooler.  the ancient website that supposedly started it - www.slug-lines.com/ 

FHWA calls it casual carpooling.  I love it.  People solving problems!  Win win solutions!  I imagine like every other form of shared transport it took a giant hit during covid, but the slug pickup areas still exist.  It's not perfect (like, there are safety issues.  obvs.) but it's good stuff.  Win a pub trivia answer some day with that one...

[Deleted]

Apr 1, 2024 15:06:11 GMT -5 wawa said:

Apr 1, 2024 13:37:50 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

I agree with a lot of this.

One thing I’ve been happy to see gain some popularity in our small Midwest city area is a bus/carpool van that drives between the two populated cities. They’re about 25 miles apart and a lot of people drive between the two for work. (Often because one person has a job in one city and one has a job in the other.) We also have some car share lots in more rural areas where there’s basically just a parking lot on the side of the road where people arrange to meet and drive together to work. They’re not popular, as our culture is to think that we must have ultimate flexibility as to arrival/departure and being able to pick up groceries/run errands after work, but I’m glad it’s an option for some.

The rural makeup of our area makes public transportation difficult, but there are a lot of things that we can do to reduce carbon footprints. Carpooling can be an in-between option that a lot of people COULD make work if they wanted to. It would require a change in routines, but there are definitely more options than we think.

One of my favorite pieces of ad-hoc transportation infrastructure is the slugging practice in DC.  It's been formalized quite a bit now, but it started as a totally grassroots thing where people spread word that you could go wait in certain places and people who wanted to drive in the HOV lanes would swing through and find a destination match and take a total stranger as a carpooler.  the ancient website that supposedly started it - www.slug-lines.com/ 

FHWA calls it casual carpooling.  I love it.  People solving problems!  Win win solutions!  I imagine like every other form of shared transport it took a giant hit during covid, but the slug pickup areas still exist.  It's not perfect (like, there are safety issues.  obvs.) but it's good stuff.  Win a pub trivia answer some day with that one...

I know folks who work at the Pentagon who talk about slugging, though I’m not sure I know anyone who has ever done it. I gotta think there’s an app for that, especially one that can match people not only based on location/time of day but also age/gender, taste in music, likes to chat vs. likes quiet. My guess is that the types of locations where slugging is more successful (ie: large population centers) also have good public transit. But I definitely feel like something like this could work for my neighborhood where thousands of people live, and probably 75% work in one of six major work areas. There are tons of tech people too, so if an app doesn’t exist, maybe someone could write one??

[wawa]

Apr 1, 2024 15:26:18 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Apr 1, 2024 15:06:11 GMT -5 wawa said:

One of my favorite pieces of ad-hoc transportation infrastructure is the slugging practice in DC.  It's been formalized quite a bit now, but it started as a totally grassroots thing where people spread word that you could go wait in certain places and people who wanted to drive in the HOV lanes would swing through and find a destination match and take a total stranger as a carpooler.  the ancient website that supposedly started it - www.slug-lines.com/ 

FHWA calls it casual carpooling.  I love it.  People solving problems!  Win win solutions!  I imagine like every other form of shared transport it took a giant hit during covid, but the slug pickup areas still exist.  It's not perfect (like, there are safety issues.  obvs.) but it's good stuff.  Win a pub trivia answer some day with that one...

I know folks who work at the Pentagon who talk about slugging, though I’m not sure I know anyone who has ever done it. I gotta think there’s an app for that, especially one that can match people not only based on location/time of day but also age/gender, taste in music, likes to chat vs. likes quiet. My guess is that the types of locations where slugging is more successful (ie: large population centers) also have good public transit. But I definitely feel like something like this could work for my neighborhood where thousands of people live, and probably 75% work in one of six major work areas. There are tons of tech people too, so if an app doesn’t exist, maybe someone could write one??

Slug etiquette apparently requires that the slug be silent unless conversation is started by the driver, slugs are to refrain from phone conversations beyond a simple "I'm on my way" and the driver always gets to pick the music.  The website I posted is a trip if you poke around. 

An app would be cool, but this doesn't even require a dedicated app - people could get it started by just posting in some existing community group.  nextdoor or a facebook group or the like.  "looking for carpool partners to X.  Can pick up at Y at this time, headed back at this time.  Post if interested." or vice versa for passengers. 
The unique thing about slugging is that it was mutually beneficial because we have HOV lanes, so picking up a passenger made it a faster drive for the driver without any need for splitting gas money or taking turns driving or anything that complicates typical carpooling.

[wawa]

Apr 1, 2024 13:05:57 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Also, for people who live in less than ideal public transportation places but have given up their cars I do think it would be helpful to discuss how you did that. What the transition was like. What your daily commute looks like and how it changed. What you like and don’t like. Etc. When people have examples from people they know I do think it can be helpful to move the needle instead of just saying it can be done, go talk to your government and if you don’t you’re just making excuses.

FWIW - everything I included in my short novel above is stuff I've done. 

we're still a two car household and unlikely to change that in the near future, but for us safety is the hurdle we can't quite climb for certain trips, rather than time.  We have taken a good bite out of our household VMT though with all that. 

[erbear]

This is why we stay in the city. I drive to work (but we carpool -- me + 4 kids) -- it's 8 miles. You could feasibly bike but I don't really know how to ride a bike...my husband takes the train (we have one car and it's electric). There is public transportation but it would take close to 1.5 hours on the bus and longer on the train since you'd have to go into center city and out again. Other than that, we don't really drive -- everything else (grocery stores, restaurants, bars, friends, even soccer practice) is walkable or on the train line.

Philly has a decent biking culture except out of the center city, there are very few dedicated bike lanes or even shoulders so I don't know how safe that would be.

[pixy0stix]

Apr 1, 2024 15:01:12 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Apr 1, 2024 14:30:16 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm doing the thing where I keep coming back with "And another thing!"

Gas prices in America are insanely low when compared to the rest of the world. If we stripped away the artificially low price for gas all of the arguments to switch to other modes of travel would magically melt away. As an example - the UK is currently paying around $7 per gallon for gas. In 2015ish a study was done calculating the "true cost" of gasoline, and back then if we were paying appropriate taxes (for road repair etc.) we should have been around $15 per gallon. (We haven't been paying the appropriate taxes which is why, in part, our infrastructure is so shitty.)

 I totally get that gas price are too low, but how do we increase the price to match the unsubsidized cost without it disproportionally impacting lower income Americans?  They already tend to drive less fuel efficient cars & have to drive farther from their homes to their jobs.  A tax credit/refund? (which the GOP would decry as free money to the poor) A direct benefit card like we have with food but to pay for gas?

Frankly, I don't know if we can mitigate the cost. Current projection is that we run out of adequate oil production to suit the world's needs by 2050. www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=38&t=6

The source does say that new modes of production might be found, but my understanding is that it's going to come from deeper deposits, or oil that isn't as easily workable as it is now. So we've got maybe 20 years of oil, and I bet we start seeing sharply rising oil prices within 10 years. That's without countries sharply moving away from oil production as we try to stop the environment from literally crashing and burning.

[erbear]

Mar 30, 2024 9:39:22 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Yet another thread where people justify driving over any other mode. I'd like one thread where people problem solve and talk themselves into changing their mode of transportation.

@@@@
What is it that you do that you think the rest of us should be doing? I'm genuinely curious to hear how others manage to drive less when the infrastructure isn't set up for it and they work outside the home or have kids they need to lug to school or care.